GM to lay off 30,000 people

[dvcgirl]

BINGO!!!

Here's an excerpt of a story on NBC Nightly this evening.....this is exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about. The Big Wake UP Call....

Americans can no longer count on pensions
Experts advise more focus on financial planning to prepare for retirement


• Americans find cracks in nest eggs
Nov. 20: Millions of baby boomers are scrambling to find ways to make sure their golden years are golden. NBC's Mark Mullen reports.
Nightly News

Updated: 7:37 p.m. ET Nov. 23, 2005
LOS ANGELES - For Janice Whiffen, it's time for a retirement reality check. She's 57, has worked for a company that offered no pension, and sits down now with a financial planner to discuss how she'll fund her retirement.

"I no longer have the earning capacity that I once did," Whiffen says.

Financial experts say in today's climate of unstable and underfunded pensions, millions of Americans just like Whiffen should be worried.

"There's a high risk that you would not have a pension plan from your current or your future employer," says Shlomo Benartzi, a professor at UCLA’s Anderson School of Management. "That Social Security may or may not be there for you," he adds, "depending on the financial soundness of the system, and that people are not saving enough on their own.”

Enter financial planners like Jennifer Openshaw, who are trying to scare their clients into action.

"That's a real sad, harsh reality for Americans," Openshaw says, "because here, 44 million Americans are facing underfunded pensions. And what are they going to do?"

Are pension promises history?
The best advice, say experts, is "do something." Commit to saving on your own, consider a financial planner and, if your boss does have a 401(k), participate heavily. Many, surprisingly, don't.

"Even if they put money aside," says Professor Benartzi, "sometimes they invest it all in a single stock, like company stock, which they have the risk of losing their job and their retirement savings at the same time if the company does not perform well."

That happened to many Enron workers.

And financial planners say some nearing retirement might even consider major lifestyle changes to save money — not just downsizing homes, but even moving to more affordable states with no state income tax.

"People need to wake up that they're going to have to take financial responsibility," says Whiffen.

Or they could end up broke, if they let the system determine their financial future.

 

[Glenn]

The bottom line with GM is that they didnt build vehicles that sold well. Instead of working on that the workers get fired. Face it companies want to keep on increasing profits 20%, 30% a quarter & will do anything to get it, even destroying their buyers. Examples of why things wont be better, Cnn Workers at a chinese factory complain about wage & safety issues making Disney childrens books, wages 47 cents per hour no benefits, Cnn article how Indian call center workers get yelled at Wages of $200/mo puts someone into middle class, no real benefits. One worker making $420/mo thought he was making great money. Plant making refrigarators moves to mexico wages 1.67 hour, benefits=lunch and car fare. Along with this many of these contrys have no or little safety rules or enviremental rules. Will the large middle class we know today be a thing of the past when children born today hit 40? I think so.

 

[momof2inPA]

While I know some will disagree, the facts prove what I'm about to say.

Unions kill jobs.

God forbid labor bans together for safe working conditions, liveable wages, and affordable healthcare. Blame the unions if it makes you feel better, but unless these workers are willing to work for less than minimum wage, they can't compete with the Chinese. Then there's the issues of a huge, new steel mill coming on line in China, the Chinese hoarding scrap metal, China entering the WTO, greed, fuel costs, etc. But blame the unions and working class if it makes you feel better, from your home in the hills overlooking the Epcot ball.

How dare they want a home of any size? Let them eat cake, right Ducklite?

 

[momof2inPA]

The bottom line with GM is that they didnt build vehicles that sold well. Instead of working on that the workers get fired. Face it companies want to keep on increasing profits 20%, 30% a quarter & will do anything to get it, even destroying their buyers. Examples of why things wont be better, Cnn Workers at a chinese factory complain about wage & safety issues making Disney childrens books, wages 47 cents per hour no benefits, Cnn article how Indian call center workers get yelled at Wages of $200/mo puts someone into middle class, no real benefits. One worker making $420/mo thought he was making great money. Plant making refrigarators moves to mexico wages 1.67 hour, benefits=lunch and car fare. Along with this many of these contrys have no or little safety rules or enviremental rules. Will the large middle class we know today be a thing of the past when children born today hit 40? I think so.

Good post.

There's no way the U.S. can compete with these countries, unless we are willing to become third world, ourselves. We're well on our way.

 

[mickman1962]

God forbid labor bans together for safe working conditions, liveable wages, and affordable healthcare. Blame the unions if it makes you feel better, but unless these workers are willing to work for less than minimum wage, they can't compete with the Chinese. Then there's the issues of a huge, new steel mill coming on line in China, the Chinese hoarding scrap metal, China entering the WTO, greed, fuel costs, etc. But blame the unions and working class if it makes you feel better, from your home in the hills overlooking the Epcot ball.

How dare they want a home of any size? Let them eat cake, right Ducklite?

It's OSHA's job for safe working conditions. As for liveable wages and affordable health care, the UAW just priced themselves out of the market.

 

[mickman1962]

obviously you have never worked on an assembly line If you think all we do is push buttons all day. Trust me... working on an assembly line IS hard work.

By the time we reach retirement age most all of us have carpel tunnel, tinnitus & all different cancers from all the solvents, chemicals, etc.

A lot more than GM jobs will be lost because of this. For every 1 big three job lost there is something like 3 jobs lost because of the trickle down effect.

digging a ditch is hard too but it doesn't make it skilled labor. And oh yeah, I thought your union protects you from unsafe working conditions?

 

[momof2inPA]

It's OSHA's job for safe working conditions. As for liveable wages and affordable health care, the UAW just priced themselves out of the market.

It's actually the employer's job to provide safe working conditions, to be enforced by OSHA, right? The only reason OSHA exists is because of unions, and OSHA reg's would be meaningless without constant pressure from unions to keep them from being dismantled and watered down. Unions spear-head research into the dangers of industrial chemicals in an on-going effort to keep workers safe.

As for the UAW pricing workers out of the market, the only labor price that would make workers competitive in the international market is so low, it would be illegal (see the many posts about wages overseas). Health care is a problem. It needs to be addressed on a national level, but the only person with enough balls to attempt it so far has been villified by right-- Hilllary Clinton.

It's time for fair trade regulations, to preserve our way of life. Protectionism? Call it whatever you want, it's time.

 

[momof2inPA]

And oh yeah, I thought your union protects you from unsafe working conditions?

What about OSHA? You said it was their responsibility.

It's tough for a union to protect its workers these days, when people are so afraid of losing their jobs to scabs they won't strike to protect their health. Then, there's the other problem of workers not voting as a group. They vote for abortion and gay marriage, instead of their jobs and paychecks.

Anyway, I'm sure if their union is aware of a problem health situation, they are trying to fix it, although some are better at it than others, but it's not usually an immediate fix. At least, there's some protection.

 

[ducklite]

God forbid labor bans together for safe working conditions,

That's the job of OSHA to enforce. And most states now have whistleblower laws to protect employees.

liveable wages, and affordable healthcare.

Tens of thousands of businesses who are not unionized offer these benefits. You don't need a union to get a living wage. And being paid $20-30/hour for assemblyline work is a lot more than a living wage. Last time I looked, the number one and number six employer in the US were non-unionized grocery stores. I don't believe any unionized grocery stores made the list. What does that say to you?

Blame the unions if it makes you feel better, but unless these workers are willing to work for less than minimum wage, they can't compete with the Chinese. Then there's the issues of a huge, new steel mill coming on line in China, the Chinese hoarding scrap metal, China entering the WTO, greed, fuel costs, etc. But blame the unions and working class if it makes you feel better, from your home in the hills overlooking the Epcot ball.

If unions didn't price labor right off the charts in the US, many employers would have been happier to keep jobs here. And I got my house by working NON-Union jobs, one in retail. I worked two jobs to get my dream home. This is something that too many in this country have forgotten how to do...work for what you want instead of complaining you can't get it because you don't make enough money. So take that to the bank.

How dare they want a home of any size? Let them eat cake, right Ducklite?

Millions of homeowners in the US don't have unions jobs and own homes. Your arguments simply no longer hold water. 100 years ago, sure. No longer.

Anne

 

[DMRick]

Actually, $2,800 a month is plenty to live on in Upstate NY, with house taxes, and some traveling (ok, lots of traveling LOL). Our SS won't kick in for several years, and we don't touch our investments (hubby keeps saying it's for our reitrement..uh..we are retired LOL), and we can do it easily on that with money left over. It really does depend on where you live, and what bills you retired with. We only have living expenses (taxes, food, heat, lights, phone, cell phone, and we actually did a refi, when % was very very low, to invest), no cc, and I think that makes a big difference. I think that is what C.Ann is saying..it depends on how/where you live. We certainly don't have the expenses, for instance, DC or even some of CT would have, but we aren't an inexpensive area near Albany, either. I"d say most people we know may have a $100,000 nest egg, and that's about it.

I don't know your personal situation, where you live, what your personal income is or was (if you are retired), but $2,800 a month in many parts of the country is not enough money. It just isn't. The "average" retiree? I'm talking about a couple who are retiring right now, who have made 50K as a couple. Do you think 50K a year is a ton of money...we're talking total 50K....two incomes. .

 

[Planogirl]

If unions didn't price labor right off the charts in the US, many employers would have been happier to keep jobs here. And I got my house by working NON-Union jobs, one in retail. I worked two jobs to get my dream home. This is something that too many in this country have forgotten how to do...work for what you want instead of complaining you can't get it because you don't make enough money. So take that to the bank.

Actually, many Customer Service jobs have gone to other countries too and CS people aren't exactly paid all that well for the most part. It's NOT just the high-paying jobs being exported.

Keep in mind that overseas wages are often below US poverty levels plus that old albatross, benefits, isn't a concern. American companies can save a lot of money shipping virtually any old jobs overseas.

 

[arminnie]

We had a great conversation, and when he asked if there was anything he could do for us, I told him to get Saturn to move up the date I could order my SKY. He was laughing and asked if I was on teh wait list yet, and I told him absolutely! I said I didn't even need to see the car in person or test drive it, I wanted one, end of story. He asked if I had seen one in person yet, and I told him no, and he gave us comp tickets to the Orlando car show going on this week and said they had a SKY there. He gave us his business card and told us to be sure to call him if we ever needed anything.

OK, moral of the story, what other brand of car would you find that level of customer service with?

Anne

That's exactly the level of service that I've always gotten from Honda for the past 20 years. Since I've moved around a bit I've been in multiple cities and have used multiple dealerships.

On my 8 year old Honda I broke something on the rear view mirror so it kept flopping down - I went to the Honda dealership to get a new mirrow. They guy came out and took it apart and sort of rigged it up somehow inside so it would work - for FREE. He spent at least 45 minutes doing this.

That's only one of many good experiences I've had with Honda.

I just bought a Pontiac Vibe that now has 162 miles on it. The sales staff was great. I just hope my service is okay and that I don't need it very much. I'm still really nervous about not buying a Honda, but Honda just didn't make a car that suited my needs.

 

[S. C.]

I am not saying that workers should be making $7 an hour. But many are making over $30 an hour, which IMHO is out of line for what basically amounts to unskilled labor, particularly in areas with low costs of living. Anne

Do you think that electricians, plumbers, & toolmakers are really considered unskilled labor? They are the only ones in our plant making over $30 an hour.

Yes the rest of us little unskilled button pushing line workers do make a good living. But we are not paid over $30 an hour.

 

[ducklite]

Do you think that electricians, plumbers, & toolmakers are really considered unskilled labor? They are the only ones in our plant making over $30 an hour.

Yes the rest of us little unskilled button pushing line workers do make a good living. But we are not paid over $30 an hour.

SKILLED labor should make more than unskilled labor.

Anne

 

[S. C.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tandrjohn
In GM's case, getting paid millions while their company is losing hundreds of millions of dollars. I WANT THIS JOB!
Execs look out for their own (money wise), always have, always will.

If the losses are in the wrong places they will be out of a job, or get less money, just like everybody else.

Delphi has asked that their execs get 88 Million in bonuses.

Here are the details of Delphi's five-part Key Executive Compensation Program:


Emergence Cash Plan -- Top executives receive a lump sum on the day Delphi is sold or emerges from bankruptcy. For instance, Delphi President and Chief Operating Officer Rodney O'Neal, 51, with an average annual salary of $1.2 million, would receive $2.8 million; vice chairman David B. Wohleen, 54, with an average annual salary of $890,000, would receive $2.2 million; chief financial officer Robert J. Dellinger, 44, with a $750,000 average annual salary, would receive $2 million. In all, 486 executives will receive $87.9 million.


In a departure, Delphi Chief Executive Steve Miller opted not to participate, but rather to be compensated at the discretion of Delphi's compensation committee made up of board members. Miller is chairman of the board.


Emergence Equity Plan -- Delphi is proposing that 10% of the equity in the reorganized company be set aside for its executives. Delphi predicts its equity will be $4 billion. The plan, which is formulated on the executives' salary and stock options, could bring Miller $35 million, O'Neal $17.5 million, Wohleen $14 million and Dellinger $10.5 million.


Severance Plan -- Provides compensation in the event Delphi terminates an officer's employment without cause or if an officer quits for good reason. It includes 18 months of salary and 18 months of bonuses. Currently all qualifying salaried employees receive severance pay for 12 months after leaving the company.

 

[S. C.]

SKILLED labor should make more than unskilled labor.

Anne

YES they should, I was pointing out that it IS the skilled labor who makes over $30 an hour.

I am not saying that workers should be making $7 an hour. But many are making over $30 an hour, which IMHO is out of line for what basically amounts to unskilled labor, particularly in areas with low costs of living.Anne

 

[momof2inPA]

That's the job of OSHA to enforce. And most states now have whistleblower laws to protect employees.

Tens of thousands of businesses who are not unionized offer these benefits. You don't need a union to get a living wage. And being paid $20-30/hour for assemblyline work is a lot more than a living wage. Last time I looked, the number one and number six employer in the US were non-unionized grocery stores. I don't believe any unionized grocery stores made the list. What does that say to you?

If unions didn't price labor right off the charts in the US, many employers would have been happier to keep jobs here. And I got my house by working NON-Union jobs, one in retail. I worked two jobs to get my dream home. This is something that too many in this country have forgotten how to do...work for what you want instead of complaining you can't get it because you don't make enough money. So take that to the bank.

Millions of homeowners in the US don't have unions jobs and own homes. Your arguments simply no longer hold water. 100 years ago, sure. No longer.

Anne

Pardon me for coming back to this after several days. I don't spend much time on the computer.

My guess is you have never spent much time in a factory. Many are extremely unpleasant, hot, sometimes over 100 degrees in the summer (if it's a steel mill, it could be everyday all year round). Unskilled assembly jobs paying $20 or $30 plus benefits are a myth. If you get $12, you're lucky. Now, a machinist or good mechanic might make that wage, but they are often more skilled than the engineers, so they deserve it.

OSHA is often not enough of a deterrent, especially the state-run OSHA's that are pressured by the governors to take it easy on the businesses.

Implying that Walmart pays a living wage is a joke.

I'm sure you worked for your home, but many people have never been given the same advantages or opportunities that you or I have. These are the people that benefit from collective bargaining. They need protection from management who would fire them for any excuse to keep the masses in check. To assume that all companies and managers are the altruistic good guys (and many of them are good guys ) is naive. A union offers protection from the ones that aren't fair. I've never worked an hourly job, but I would rather work a union hourly job than one without a union.

 

[chrissyk]

Pardon me for coming back to this after several days. I don't spend much time on the computer.

My guess is you have never spent much time in a factory. Many are extremely unpleasant, hot, sometimes over 100 degrees in the summer (if it's a steel mill, it could be everyday all year round). Unskilled assembly jobs paying $20 or $30 plus benefits are a myth. If you get $12, you're lucky. Now, a machinist or good mechanic might make that wage, but they are often more skilled than the engineers, so they deserve it.

OSHA is often not enough of a deterrent, especially the state-run OSHA's that are pressured by the governors to take it easy on the businesses.

Implying that Walmart pays a living wage is a joke.

I'm sure you worked for your home, but many people have never been given the same advantages or opportunities that you or I have. These are the people that benefit from collective bargaining. They need protection from management who would fire them for any excuse to keep the masses in check. To assume that all companies and managers are the altruistic good guys (and many of them are good guys ) is naive. A union offers protection from the ones that aren't fair. I've never worked an hourly job, but I would rather work a union hourly job than one without a union.

While I won't dispute a lot of what you say, but I do have to ask you if GM has a tuition reimbursement program for employees. You say that a lot of people have never been given the same advantages and opportunities that other people have. Well, at my former (unionized) employer, I saw the unlimited tuition reimbursement at the great equalizer. Couldn't afford college after high school? Well, here is a HUGE gift! You can get as many degrees as you like...FREE. Suprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly), very few employees took advantage of this benefit. In the 60+ person installation group that installed our designs, I can count TWO people who were taking advantage of the tuition reimbursement program. I was the ONLY person in my own workgroup who took advantage of it. Whenever I tried to bring it up to others, I got every excuse in the book as to why they couldn't be bothered. Either they "almost had their 30 years in" or they were "too busy" or they didn't want to have to pay for books...whatever. They were never to busy to spend hours complaining about how the company was screwing them or how they were worried about layoffs

I got very sick of hearing about how the union members didn't have the "opportunities" that the management had had. ANYONE could go to college and grad. school for free on the company, but yet the union people were somehow lacking in opportunities Please. Then, they were the first people to complain when layoffs happened and they had no marketable skills that would pay them anywhere near the wages that they had been making. Somehow that was management's fault too BTW, I was actually IN the union for about a year, and then management for the better part of a decade, so I saw it from both sides. With the great benefits that seem to be bleeding GM dry, I would find it hard to believe that they didn't have a similar tuition program...gotta wonder how many of these soon-to-be-former-employees actually took advantage of it and secured their own futures...my guess, based upon my own experience, is that the answer is "not many".

 

[Puffy2]

No one forced GM or any other company to offer "great benefits" - to jerk them (pension or other promised benefits) out from under people after years of service amounts to nothing more than stealing. Actuaries and accounts are responsible for making accurate projections on future cost, so don't try to tell me that these companies didn't see the "financial strain" coming.


Thank god for unions or most of working America would still be working in the sweatshops 12 hours a day.

 

[ducklite]

Pardon me for coming back to this after several days. I don't spend much time on the computer.

My guess is you have never spent much time in a factory. Many are extremely unpleasant, hot, sometimes over 100 degrees in the summer (if it's a steel mill, it could be everyday all year round). Unskilled assembly jobs paying $20 or $30 plus benefits are a myth. If you get $12, you're lucky. Now, a machinist or good mechanic might make that wage, but they are often more skilled than the engineers, so they deserve it.

You guess WRONG! I worked for four years in an unheated, unairconditioned auto parts warehouse, making maybe $1 an hour above minimum. It was horribly hot in the summer, freezing cold in the winter. It was hard, heavy labor intensive work. To supplement my income I worked two p/t jobs, one as a waittress, and the other in retail. Oh--did I mention I took college classes in my free time And guess what, I didn't make excuses, and I aspired to better my life, rather than let any and everyone fix it for me. (And I paid my tuition with the p/t jobs, lived in a crappy apartment in one of the worst areas of the city, and drove a 15 year old car with the bumper held on with a couple coat hangers.)

OSHA is often not enough of a deterrent, especially the state-run OSHA's that are pressured by the governors to take it easy on the businesses.

A call to the workers comp carrier will also see results... People just need to open up to their minds and think outside of teh box to come up with solutions.

Implying that Walmart pays a living wage is a joke.

Where did I mention Wal-Mart? I feel that they are a terrible employer. But I don't think unionizing would help them.

I'm sure you worked for your home, but many people have never been given the same advantages or opportunities that you or I have. These are the people that benefit from collective bargaining. They need protection from management who would fire them for any excuse to keep the masses in check. To assume that all companies and managers are the altruistic good guys (and many of them are good guys ) is naive. A union offers protection from the ones that aren't fair. I've never worked an hourly job, but I would rather work a union hourly job than one without a union.

Wrong again. What advantages and opportunities did I have? I grew up in a family that struggled to pay the bills. My parents couldn't afford to pay for college for their seven kids. Everyone of us managed to succeed in life. We were taught a work ethic, taught that you work hard and make wise choices you will succeed. I left home at 18 with a high school degree, $125 in the bank, and two jobs. EVERYTHING that I have I've worked for. For a good half of my adult life I've held at least two jobs. I earned it all. I worked for it. And I'm proud of that fact. And I NEVER had a union get any of it for me.

And BTW--If I got fired from a crappy job I'd move on. I learned early to put my eggs in several baskets. Anytime I worked someplace that offered training or education in anything, even if it was something I had no interest in, if it was free I went to the class. I now have enough skills that I can work in half a dozen fields/positions, and barring catastrophic personal circumstances, I'll never be out of a job for long.

Anne