GM to lay off 30,000 people

Bob Slydell said:
I guess I am all about me, then, because I bought a Honda (which, BTW, was manufactured in Marysville, OH) because I liked it the most out of all the other vehicles we looked at. Far be it for me to not choose a vehicle I didn't like in order to save the country. :rolleyes:

For the record, one of our other choices was a Chrysler (Town & Country), but considering they're now owned by a German company that wouldn't really be "buying American" now, would it? ;)
While I admire rockin_rep's convictions on this topic, I agree with you in that people are going to buy what they like, plain and simple, no matter where it is made, and honestly, I don't have a problem with that. During the mid to late '90 the Big Three were rolling in the billions because people were buying their SUV's. Times and taste's have changed and the American manufacturers have been slow to adapt.
I buy only Fords because of loyalty (FIL worked there 35+ years), I get a huge discount, I've always liked their products, and I've had no major problems with Ford vehicles.
 
tandrjohn said:
:confused3 There hasn't been a strike at GM since 1996 and that was only at one plant. Actually the UAW and the Big Three have been at peace for a relatively long time now. Do the unions have a hand in the recent troubles at GM, of course. I would argue, however, that a multitude of other factors are to blame as well - how about falling market share, a dismal product line, poor decision making by management, rising fuel prices, etc...I'm not a fan of the UAW, but their role in GM's troubles is minor at best.

If you're right, then this will not help and they will continue to go down. On the other hand, if it was all about dumping workers who make too much and are too costly to insure (and I never said recent strikes, just ones that got workers to the point where GM is better off dumping them) then it will obviously show that GM was looking to dump overhead.

I agree about the other factors, but IMO this is about dealing with the situation that the UAW created over the years. I see this as the first of many big companies getting rid of the union overhead. Sadly, I think the axe in my area is coming soon. (Boeing). It will toast area economy. Not sure what I'll do when that happens.
 
tandrjohn said:
In GM's case, getting paid millions while their company is losing hundreds of millions of dollars. I WANT THIS JOB!
Execs look out for their own (money wise), always have, always will.

If the losses are in the wrong places they will be out of a job, or get less money, just like everybody else.
 
tandrjohn said:
I buy only Fords because of loyalty (FIL worked there 35+ years), I get a huge discount, I've always liked their products, and I've had no major problems with Ford vehicles.

Just for the record, my family owned a Ford dealership (Tri Cities WA) but very few of us ever took advantage of getting cars at cost. They were simply not worth any price.

My grandma on the other hand took cars from her brother every other year and had nothing but problems with every one. My cousin loves Mustangs, but sticks to the ones made before they decided to let things go to hell.
 

cardaway said:
I agree about the other factors, but IMO this is about dealing with the situation that the UAW created over the years. I see this as the first of many big companies getting rid of the union overhead.

I totally agree with this. Having worked in an entitlement-mentality union environment for the better part of a decade, I could see the writing on the wall there years ago. That the dumping of "union overhead" too this long to happen is astonishing to me, though. The union members at my old company would rather go on strike for 6 months than pay $5 a month towards their medical benefits :rolleyes: Yeah, that makes sense :rolleyes2

The best part was that that company offered UNLIMITED tuition benefits that they actually paid UP FRONT to the college of your choice. I was the ONLY person in my work group to use this benefit. I got a free graduate degree (except for books...I paid for those). When I would bring up this great benefit to my coworkers, they would say that they didn't need a degree because they almost had their 30 years in :rolleyes: They had years and years of this opportunity for free schooling, and they all ignored it. There were PLENTY of really good universities in the area offering night-school classes too. Of course, they are going to be the ones complaining when they are out of a job or when they lose their underfunded pension and they are working at the grocery store for $6 an hour.
 
cardaway said:
I agree about the other factors, but IMO this is about dealing with the situation that the UAW created over the years.
The last time I checked, bargaining is a two way street. The situation that the UAW created? :confused3 The UAW is powerful but they did not create this situation.
 
cardaway said:
If the losses are in the wrong places they will be out of a job, or get less money, just like everybody else.
In G Richard Wagoner Jr's (General Motors) case he will have to live off his base salary of $2.2 million and if he gets fired he will walk away with something like $10 million...all this for helping drive GM into the ground.
 
tandrjohn said:
In G Richard Wagoner Jr's (General Motors) case he will have to live off his base salary of $2.2 million and if he gets fired he will walk away with something like $10 million.

Honestly, for a company the size of GM, that's not that high of a salary for its CEO.
 
Bob Slydell said:
Honestly, for a company the size of GM, that's not that high of a salary for its CEO.

Very true. I'd like to know what his bonuses and stock options are though, although I can't be bothered to go to Edgar and find out--I'm not a shareholder.

Anne
 
tandrjohn said:
The last time I checked, bargaining is a two way street. The situation that the UAW created? :confused3 The UAW is powerful but they did not create this situation.

IMO they most certainly did and the machinist union did the same to the workers at Boeing.

As for an example, ITA with the previous post by crissyk.
 
ducklite said:
Very true. I'd like to know what his bonuses and stock options are though, although I can't be bothered to go to Edgar and find out--I'm not a shareholder.

Anne
2004:

Salary $2,200,000
Bonus $2,460,000
O
T
H
E
R Latest FY other short-term comp. $77,962
Latest FY other long-term comp. $79,058
Latest FY long-term incentive payout $0

Total $4,817,020

Stock Options (FY December 2004)
Number of options Market value exercised 0 $0

unexercised 1,805,547 $1,667

unexercisable 933,331 $3,333

Total 2,738,878 $5,000
 
cardaway said:
IMO they most certainly did and the machinist union did the same to the workers at Boeing.

As for an example, ITA with the previous post by crissyk.

<<<Edited to add link to CNN story.>>>

Well, I respectively disagree - I think you are giving the UAW way too much credit for GM's troubles. 10 years ago, when people were buying GM's products, the company was making billions, the pension fund was fully funded, and everybody was happy.

In the end, it all comes down to product - if consumers would buy GM's products, the company would not be in the position it is.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/23/news/fortune500/bc.autos.gm.products.reut/index.htm

Analysts: GM needs more product appeal
Downsizing won't be enough, some say, unless General Motors produces vehicles people really want.
November 23, 2005: 11:46 AM EST

DETROIT (Reuters) - In an industry where "product is king," General Motors Corp. is in dire need of attractive new vehicles to rule the road, analysts say, mostly dismissing a move by the ailing auto giant to cut jobs and close plants plants to save billions of dollars a year.

The world's largest automaker on Monday said it will cut 30,000 North American manufacturing jobs and close 12 operations as part of a broader restructuring plan.

"I don't think the cuts are enough, but it's not a matter of whether they are enough or not, it's a matter of whether or not the company will create the culture of innovation GM (Research) needs to pull the company out of a tailspin," automotive expert Charles Fleetham said.

GM has been struggling with high health-care and commodities costs, loss of U.S. market share to foreign rivals and stalled sales of large sport utility vehicles due to high gasoline prices.

This year alone, the carmaker has lost $4 billion while its shares have bled more than 40 percent of their value.

GM's new 2007 models include a new Chevy Tahoe, a new professional grade GMC Yukon and Yukon Denali and a new Cadillac Escalade -- all four are big SUVs and will be rolled out in the first quarter of 2006.

"The overall product mix for 2006 is reflective of the short-term thinking of GM," Fleetham said. "GM's overall offerings are more representative of the 1999 mindset than the needs of today. The consumer of 2006 has environmental concerns, is mindful of fuel economy and is more style-conscious."

GM did not return calls for comment.

Standard & Poor's on Monday warned that its ratings on GM will remain on credit watch, citing ongoing concerns over GM's lost market share; the sales and pricing outlook for GM's products; and the adequacy of GM's strategies for improving its cost position.

Some optimism
Bob Lutz, vice chairman of global product development, last year said the goal was to turn around GM's struggling car business by ensuring that the vehicles it builds are "best in class" and capable of competing with the most desired products anywhere on the road.

"The Japanese really built their quality reputation on small cars," Jim Sanfilippo, an analyst with consulting and research firm Automotive Marketing Consultants Inc., said.

"Conversely, the U.S. makers struggled with small cars, built atrociously uncompetitive cars for many years and lost two to three generations of consumers. That's not going to be easy to undo," he said.

GM's new models, to be launched in 2006 and 2007, include new crossover vehicles -- car-based sport utility vehicles, which are lighter and less fuel-thirsty than their truck-based counterparts -- in the GMC, Buick and Saturn brands.

"This will be a big positive because there is a migration taking place from traditional SUVs to something that has the same feeling but is not as big. It provides a destination for all the defectors who don't want SUVs anymore," Sanfilippo said.

"I think the products for 2006 are quite strong," Michael Robinet, vice president of global vehicle forecast at CSM Worldwide, a consulting and research firm, said. "If we can keep fuel prices at $2 a gallon, I think GM will float to the top of the SUV and full-size pick-up market," he said, referring to GM's profit centers.

Still, Goldman Sachs analyst Robert Barry on Tuesday said an onslaught of new products from Asian automakers over the

next few years will pressure GM and could prevent it from getting the wheels back on its money-losing North American auto

business.

"A painful cycle of restructuring, waning profitability and further restructuring is likely to characterize GM's future," he said.
 
Chicago526 said:
You could in the Chicago area though. I don't make much more than that, and when single I supported myself. I had a mortgage, car payment, and work related expenses (like work clothes and gasoline for my daily commute). I paid my bills every month with money left over. DH and I could easy retire on that amount of money, once you figure we'd have the house paid off and no commuting expenses.

Yes, you could live on that $33,600 in the Chicago area, but remember that $33,600 ($2800 a month) represents either one person or two people who are retiring right now, make 50K total a year and have saved $350,000. If they have no pension and are going to try and make it on Social Security they're looking at $14,400 a year, or $1,200 a month.

And keep in mind, those are the figures from Social Security today. Social Security is in trouble in its current form and we're already being told not to expect it to remain in the form we see it in today.
 
tandrjohn said:
GM has been struggling with high health-care and commodities costs, loss of U.S. market share to foreign rivals and stalled sales of large sport utility vehicles due to high gasoline prices.

Health care costs - made only worse by the unions demanding much higher benefits than other non-union workers get in the areas.

Loss of market share - due in large part to the inability to compete in a market where others can offer higher quality and more car for less because their overhead is much lower.

Loss of market share, etc. - The rest is gravy and it hits everybody including the imports. Each class of car has the same customer, and basically gets the same gas milleage. If the imports don't take the same hit, what will be the excuse then?
 
cardaway said:
Health care costs - made only worse by the unions demanding much higher benefits than other non-union owrkers get int he area.

Loss of market share - due in large part to the inability to compete in a market where others can offer higher quality and more car for less because their overhead is much lower.

Loss of market share, etc. - The rest is gravy and it hits everybody including the imports. Each class of car has the same customer, and basically gets the same gas milleage. If the imports don't take the same hit, what will be the excuse then?

<<<Edited to Add: With this post, I'm out of here and off work for the next 4 days!!! (I only Dis occasionally while at work.) Have a happy and safe Thanksgiving everybody!!!>>>

Health care costs are a nationwide problem and the UAW recently reopened their contract with GM that saved the company billions. Bargaining is a two way street.

Loss of market share. Please read the article again. GM is not concentrating on making products that the American consumer wants! It is all about the product!

High commodity prices hit GM the hardest because of their reliance on SUV's.

If it makes you feel any better, I not a UAW member nor am I a fan of the UAW but you're continued insistence that the UAW is the major reason for the troubles at GM just doesn't make any sense.
 
As the old saying goes, what is good for GM is good for America and this news is all bad. I think the writing is on the wall, China will become the dominate economic power in the world and we will be at their mercy to do their bidding since they are financing so much of our national debt along with the Japanese. Another result of this trend is that our country is changing into a society of people below and just above the proverty level on one side and the very wealthy on the other and this can lead to economic upheavals and class warfare in the future. What now is going on in Congress between the Republicans and Democrats fighting over everything is a mirror of the future if these trends continue.

J & J :earsboy: :earsgirl:
 
dvcgirl said:
Yes, you could live on that $33,600 in the Chicago area, but remember that $33,600 ($2800 a month) represents either one person or two people who are retiring right now, make 50K total a year and have saved $350,000. If they have no pension and are going to try and make it on Social Security they're looking at $14,400 a year, or $1,200 a month.

And keep in mind, those are the figures from Social Security today. Social Security is in trouble in its current form and we're already being told not to expect it to remain in the form we see it in today.

Well, no, if you had $350,000 at retirement, and no pension, then $33,600 a year would only last you about 10 years (not figuring SS payments, that would lengthen it to 17 or 18 years). So they wouldn't have enough to retire, unless they knew they'd only live for 10 years.

My point, and I didn't make it clear, my fault, was that these retirement caluclators that say you need 80% of your DOUBLE income (two adults working) can be way off, depending on where you live and what your pre-retirement income was. DH and I can retire on a lot less than 80% of OUR double income. We could live on about 40%, assuming we only want to travel about twice a year. Now, if your pre-retirement total income is $50,000, then 80% of that is $40,000, which is a resonable amount of income (in this area). More than adaquate assuming you own your home. If you make $100,000 a year, 80% is $80,000 and, in my area, you can live like a king with no mortgage!

Now, I'm still going to fully fund my 401k based on 80% income. Not because I need the income, but because A) I'd rather have too much than not enough and B) Not knowing how health care is going to go in this country, I want to make sure I can afford a good hospital when I break my hip playing shuffle board! Heaven only knows what will become of Medicare in the next 40 years.
 
Chicago526 said:
Well, no, if you had $350,000 at retirement, and no pension, then $33,600 a year would only last you about 10 years (not figuring SS payments, that would lengthen it to 17 or 18 years). So they wouldn't have enough to retire, unless they knew they'd only live for 10 years.

My point, and I didn't make it clear, my fault, was that these retirement caluclators that say you need 80% of your DOUBLE income (two adults working) can be way off, depending on where you live and what your pre-retirement income was. DH and I can retire on a lot less than 80% of OUR double income. We could live on about 40%, assuming we only want to travel about twice a year. Now, if your pre-retirement total income is $50,000, then 80% of that is $40,000, which is a resonable amount of income (in this area). More than adaquate assuming you own your home. If you make $100,000 a year, 80% is $80,000 and, in my area, you can live like a king with no mortgage!

Now, I'm still going to fully fund my 401k based on 80% income. Not because I need the income, but because A) I'd rather have too much than not enough and B) Not knowing how health care is going to go in this country, I want to make sure I can afford a good hospital when I break my hip playing shuffle board! Heaven only knows what will become of Medicare in the next 40 years.

Agreed, 100K in the midwest sure ain't the same at 100K in San Francisco. There are lots of variables for sure. However, my only point was to show that a couple about to retire, making 50K total will need 350K to supplement Social Security to bring in 80% of the salary they had been making.

And you're wise...keep funding that 401K, at least to the match and then beyond when you can. We also will be able to retire on much less than 80% of our income....and probably for the same reason as you. We live below our means. That's the biggest benefit of being frugal....you simply don't spend as much money.. However, like I've stated earlier, we have no debt whatsoever and Social Security wouldn't cover the bills to run my household.
 
dvcgirl said:
The lesson here....we're on our own. We need to be saving and investing our *own* money. *We* are now responsible for funding our own retirements...and yet, so few are doing anything about it at all.

BINGO!!! ::yes:: ::yes:: ::yes::
 

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