Gifted program in elementary school - vent! (long, sorry!)

[Rasta_Chik]

Be happy he didnt make it!! I was in the gifted program...I hated it!! All you do is draw and color...seriously the special edu classes are prolly more challenging!! I quit this year. If your worried about him being bored you dont want him in there..

 

[golfgal]

DS was tested for the gifted program, they've decided he doesn't qualify based on his test scores.

His scores as we have them are:

Verbal - 81st percentile
Quantitative - 98th percentile
Reading - 92nd percentile
math - 60th percentile

I honestly question the math score since he's at the top of his class in math, but whatever.

Ok, with those scores he doesn't qualify for ANY special programs in the district. He's suffering in the regular class, he went from being in a very challenging class last year (different district) to skating by this year. My fear is that he's going to get so bored he stops trying, his report card is excellent, he's at or above grade level for everything.

We can appeal the decision on the gifted program, I'm just not sure if I want to. Part of me is concerned that there were 90+ kids applying and they had openings for 25, that means DS isn't alone on this, he can't be the only one that's bored out of his mind. But the district won't do anything more for them.

I haven't told DS he didn't make it yet, the pressure that was put on this testing by the school and everyone else is nuts, I'm hoping he takes it ok!

This mommy thing isn't fun sometimes!

While these scores are good, they are not typical "gifted" scores. They are the scores of a good student. The math may or may not be a fluke. Some kids do really well in K, 1, 2 and then get to 3rd grade and all of the sudden a subject is really hard. Some concepts are easy to grasp while others are not and if the student is in an area where they just are not understanding a concept and not scoring well, doesn't make them less smart.

Truely gifted children are a different bread of students. Most kids in G/T programs are just really good students. A truely gifted child is rare. Most G/T programs are set up for accellerated students, which is fine.

You state that your son is at or above grade level, being at grade level is average. A second grader reading at 5th grade level isn't all that unusual. My now 4th grader tested out reading at a 12th grade level in 3rd grade, just for comparison purposes. He also hasn't gotten a score less then 98.9% on ANYTHING all year, including the standardized testing they have taken, he was in the 99th or 100th percentile in everything. Is he gifted, no, he is just a good student and school comes easy to him.

Also, how do you know he is top in math in his class? Did his teacher share with you the scores of the other children?

Unfortunatly schools spend a considerable amount of money on programing for low achieving/handicapped students and they best and the brightest in our schools are very neglected. Federal mandates require schools to offer such programing for learning disabled, etc, yet realistically, which students are more likely to be our leaders when they grow up? Now, don't get me wrong, most kids really benifit from the programing, but I know in our district a lot of money is spent on kids that can't do anything for themselves, can't feed themselves, can't walk, talk, etc. I don't think they shouldn't have any kind of programing for them but more money is spent on these kids then is spent on other students (as much as 3-4x's as much/pupil).

We are fortunate that Minnesota has a program where high school students can take college level course that qualify for both high school and college credits. This does help challenge older students, but there really isn't a good program for good students in the lower grades. You pretty much have to try to find a good school with teachers that will push the kids.

Don't forget the average student. There is NOTHING for them.

Every parent wants to believe their child is the best at everything, but it just doesn't work out that way. Talk with his teacher, see if there are things that can be done at school to challenge him more and then find things at home to also challenge him.

 

[CheshireVal]

I wouldn't worry about it so much.

I didn't make the Gifted program in 4th grade and remember being absolutely MORTIFIED by it, because all my friends were in it.

I made it in 5th and 6th grades, though, and went on to be Star Student (highest SAT score in class) in 12th grade.



Sometimes kids just have bad test days.... but I don't think anyone loses much of anything by not being in a Gifted class.

 

[Karel]

\Unfortunatly schools spend a considerable amount of money on programing for low achieving/handicapped students and they best and the brightest in our schools are very neglected. Federal mandates require schools to offer such programing for learning disabled, etc, yet realistically, which students are more likely to be our leaders when they grow up? Now, don't get me wrong, most kids really benifit from the programing, but I know in our district a lot of money is spent on kids that can't do anything for themselves, can't feed themselves, can't walk, talk, etc. I don't think they shouldn't have any kind of programing for them but more money is spent on these kids then is spent on other students (as much as 3-4x's as much/pupil).

Don't forget the average student. There is NOTHING for them.
QUOTE]

Wow. Way to be compassionate. I love when people start whine about how much money is spent on special education. The best and the brightest can 'do' for themselves, they will find a way to learn and rise to the top. I do a ton of extra work with my LD son, why can't 'gifted' parents find ways to challenge their children too?

And yes, I do have high hopes for my LD son, that he will be a leader in the community someday. Maybe he'll be a politician someday, or President of a company. Or maybe he'll be a firefighter or a church leader or work with children. Or maybe he'll be a sanitation worker and help clean up your trash for you. But to say we should only spend money on the smart kids because someday they'll be 'somebody' smacks of... prejudice.

You should be grateful that your child can sit in class and learn. My 12 year old would like nothing better than to sit in a regular class like everyone else and understand what is going on.
He feels isolated from his friends, and wants to quit school now, even though he is thriving in his resource room program. How many above average children drop out because they're not being challenged enough??

And what exactly should 'average' children be getting that they are not? does everyone deserve a special program? If everyone makes it into the gifted program, it's not special anymore.

 

[golfgal]

\Unfortunatly schools spend a considerable amount of money on programing for low achieving/handicapped students and they best and the brightest in our schools are very neglected. Federal mandates require schools to offer such programing for learning disabled, etc, yet realistically, which students are more likely to be our leaders when they grow up? Now, don't get me wrong, most kids really benifit from the programing, but I know in our district a lot of money is spent on kids that can't do anything for themselves, can't feed themselves, can't walk, talk, etc. I don't think they shouldn't have any kind of programing for them but more money is spent on these kids then is spent on other students (as much as 3-4x's as much/pupil).

Don't forget the average student. There is NOTHING for them.
QUOTE]

Wow. Way to be compassionate. I love when people start whine about how much money is spent on special education. The best and the brightest can 'do' for themselves, they will find a way to learn and rise to the top. I do a ton of extra work with my LD son, why can't 'gifted' parents find ways to challenge their children too?

And yes, I do have high hopes for my LD son, that he will be a leader in the community someday. Maybe he'll be a politician someday, or President of a company. Or maybe he'll be a firefighter or a church leader or work with children. Or maybe he'll be a sanitation worker and help clean up your trash for you. But to say we should only spend money on the smart kids because someday they'll be 'somebody' smacks of... prejudice.

You should be grateful that your child can sit in class and learn. My 12 year old would like nothing better than to sit in a regular class like everyone else and understand what is going on.
He feels isolated from his friends, and wants to quit school now, even though he is thriving in his resource room program. How many above average children drop out because they're not being challenged enough??

And what exactly should 'average' children be getting that they are not? does everyone deserve a special program? If everyone makes it into the gifted program, it's not special anymore.

It is not prejudice, it is reality. I am talking about severely disabled students, not kids that have general processing problems. Our high school houses the handicaped learning programs. The teacher to child ratio is 1:1. In our district, these programs cost 3-4x's more per pupil then what is spent on the average kid. It is plain and simple, more money, much more money, is being spent on kids that will spend their life in diapers. I am not being crude and no, I don't think that there shouldn't be something for kids like these, but the reality of the situation is that when ever budget cuts happen, the programing for the accellerated students is almost always the first to go. It just doesn't makes sense to me. Perhaps a little equity spending would be the solution. It saddens me to see a student walking around our high school with a teacher AND an aid at all times, basically doing the work of custodians, because the school has to teach them "life" skills when the reality of the situation is that most of these kids will never be able to do any of these tasks on their own. Again, I am just being practical, I am not in any way shape or form prejudiced against handicapped kids/people, I am just suggesting that there HAS to be a better way. Also, I am NOT talking about kids with processing disorders that through retraining/teaching can learn to overcome or to deal with their LD's. I am talking about students so severly handicapped that they can't function on their own.

Maybe the best and the brightest can do for themselves, but have you ever thought about how much MORE they could do with some of the extras that the schools could provide if they were able. The US lags sadly behind most other developed nations in the overall quality of education and it just isn't right. There is no reason the US shouldn't be able to provide a better all around education for it's youth.

 

[minkydog]

It is not prejudice, it is reality. I am talking about severely disabled students, not kids that have general processing problems. Our high school houses the handicaped learning programs. The teacher to child ratio is 1:1. In our district, these programs cost 3-4x's more per pupil then what is spent on the average kid. It is plain and simple, more money, much more money, is being spent on kids that will spend their life in diapers. I am not being crude and no, I don't think that there shouldn't be something for kids like these, but the reality of the situation is that when ever budget cuts happen, the programing for the accellerated students is almost always the first to go. It just doesn't makes sense to me. Perhaps a little equity spending would be the solution. It saddens me to see a student walking around our high school with a teacher AND an aid at all times, basically doing the work of custodians, because the school has to teach them "life" skills when the reality of the situation is that most of these kids will never be able to do any of these tasks on their own. Again, I am just being practical, I am not in any way shape or form prejudiced against handicapped kids/people, I am just suggesting that there HAS to be a better way. I am talking about students so severly handicapped that they can't function on their own.

There is no reason the US shouldn't be able to provide a better all around education for it's youth.

But you are prejudiced. If it takes a taecher and a parapro to help a student with life skills and that student can learn to navigate in his community, feed himself, learn to go to the bathroom and make his own choices in lunch & snack & dressing, why shouldn't the school provide that. Just because they are not capable of doing algebra or reading great literature, does not mean their lives are without value. Custodial care is not appropriate.

My DS9 is one of those severely handicapped kids who is walking around in diapers. At birth we were told he would be vegetative. Wrong! He communicates through signs, he swims, he walks & runs, he laughs. He is 75% potty-trained, feeds himself, climbs stairs, knows his colors and can figure out lots of mechanical things, mostly because he has had diligent teachers who never gave up on him despite his terrible "medical prognosis." I personally would say it has been money well-spent.

 

[disneymom3]

I just do not think that true giftedness can necessarily show up on a test. Plus, you may have a child who is brilliant in some things but stuck in others. I love that link Pinnie--thanks! There is no way that DD would test as gifted in math because seh just freezes up, but a typical classroom would not serve her needs. I also know that parents are going to have to challenge their gifted children at home more than what they will get in school. Find their passion and let them run with it. Of course, we just homeschool. LOL then they can forge ahead whenever they are ready.

 

[my3princesses]

We live in Ontario and each school board have much different qualifications and tests to identify a child as "gifted". Our daughter was identified in grade 3 (she is now in grade 8 and off to highschool in the fall). She was tested through the Canadian Cognitive Abilities Test. Some other boards do IQ tests. She had a 98% across the board on this test. The cut off to be accepted into the gifted program is 97%.
She was then given an I.E.P. or an Individualized Education Plan. This is the same plan they give to students who are struggling in areas as well. Each year goals are set out based on my daughter's individual needs. At first our Special Ed. department did not have any time to devote to my daughter so the teacher gave her extra work and projects. This did not work as she was just doing more homework than everyone else. She felt as if she was being "penalized for being bright". She was then given jobs within the school. So if a teacher needed help with something she would go and help. Whatever was missed in class was discussed with her to ensure she understood the concepts. For two years the Special Ed teacher had time to spend with her so they worked on the school's website and other fun projects during school time. As well the school board has had workshops for all of the identifed students to go to which involved things such as arts, math, computers, etc. All along we have challenged her with extra curricular things such as piano, sports, etc.
This year the school board came up with a drama unit to cover the entire school year but this involves our taking (and picking up) our daughter to a school in a town 1/2 hour away once a week. It is a great program but very demanding. She has missed so much school but fortunately has a teacher who is very understanding. As well, had my daughter not been so bright (she is still pulling a 95% average) there is no way she would have been able to keep up with understanding the concepts covered in class. It has been up to her to find out what she missed and work at it to understand it. If she has a question then she can talk to the teacher. The past two weeks she has been at these workshops more than once a week (last week it was 3 days) to try to finished this project that they are working on. She missed alot of school, hanging out with her friends and today has two tests to write because she missed them). She also has several obligations in the school still (helping out teachers). She is responsible for attendance, coordinates the school "canteen" and is on several teams.
Needless to say, this can be all very overwhelming for not only my daughter, but us as we are driving her everywhere plus helping her get caught up. She is also missing out on a big social part of being in her last year of elementary.
We met the special ed teacher in highschool and asked that she no longer participates in any other programs for gifted students as highschool has its challenges (both social and academic). She just wants to be a "normal" kid.
Anyway, my point is that there are pros and cons into having the extra work for gifted students. Unfortunately quite often there are more cons.
Our youngest just had this test done and was in the 95% (thankfully). As bright as she is you really need to be a genius to be able to handle what the gifted programs have to offer and that extra 2-3% really makes a difference here (especially when you have to learn and understand the concepts on your own). Even if she graded higher we would really think about having her offically identified.

Sorry for the length of this but I wanted to show the down side of being gifted as well. Don't get me wrong, my daughter is amazing and for the most part has dealt with the challenges very well and has gained a lot through the programs but has struggled with the workload and pressure of being "labelled".

My last comment as well is that I have heard from parents of children who are struggling and waiting to get extra time with special ed. Their thoughts are that the time "wasted" on the gifted students should be given to their children instead.

Either way you wanted win sometimes.

 

[TinkBoo&ElliesMum]

I just do not think that true giftedness can necessarily show up on a test. Plus, you may have a child who is brilliant in some things but stuck in others. I love that link Pinnie--thanks! There is no way that DD would test as gifted in math because seh just freezes up, but a typical classroom would not serve her needs. I also know that parents are going to have to challenge their gifted children at home more than what they will get in school. Find their passion and let them run with it. Of course, we just homeschool. LOL then they can forge ahead whenever they are ready.

This is what DH and I were talking about last night, with the way they decide who gets placed they're doing a huge disservice to the kids who freeze on tests but would otherwise qualify for special services through the gifted program. This testing was done on 2 Saturdays for four hours a day, I know there were a few other kids who weren't happy to be there and they made it clear!

DH and I talked some more about it, we're going talk to the district because they said we could make use of the other services available to DS, but we have yet to see them. In order for us to get the extra work this year we've had to be REALLY involved in the class and make it happen. And of course his teacher is out until the 27th so we can't talk to her about it.

We're really missing our old district now, funding and class sizes were much different there and when we did our research on the new district, well it looked much better on paper and test scores.

 

[golfgal]

But you are prejudiced. If it takes a taecher and a parapro to help a student with life skills and that student can learn to navigate in his community, feed himself, learn to go to the bathroom and make his own choices in lunch & snack & dressing, why shouldn't the school provide that. Just because they are not capable of doing algebra or reading great literature, does not mean their lives are without value. Custodial care is not appropriate.

My DS9 is one of those severely handicapped kids who is walking around in diapers. At birth we were told he would be vegetative. Wrong! He communicates through signs, he swims, he walks & runs, he laughs. He is 75% potty-trained, feeds himself, climbs stairs, knows his colors and can figure out lots of mechanical things, mostly because he has had diligent teachers who never gave up on him despite his terrible "medical prognosis." I personally would say it has been money well-spent.

I am not saying these programs are not good. I am sure they are wonderful, but, they are at the cost of educating 99.9% of the rest of the children in the nation.

In the first district in which I taught, the community was growing and they needed more space at the high school. The sevearly learning disabled programs were based in the high school and took up the equivilant of 5 classrooms. The district had built a new middle school about 5 years previously and had planned for the growth. They wanted to move the SLD classes to the middle school so the high school could expand into those classrooms and thus putting off the need for a new building by about 5-10 years. Well, they couldn't move those classes because the square footage of the new space was 10 square feet, yes 10 square feet, smaller and by federal mandates they couldn't give the SLD kids "less" then what they had before. Nevermind that the current space was a converted wood shop with cement floors and dingy walls and the new space was beautiful with incorporated bathrooms, lovely windows, much nicer space. So, the community had to build an ENTIRE new high school to accomodate 12 students. It is just not right.

If this spended inequity took place ANYWHERE else, the country would be up in arms but because it deals with handicapped people, then it is ok. I would be MORE offended at getting special treatment then being treated like everyone else, with obvious modifications. 30% of our district educational expense goes to funding the "severely handicapped kids, that is 18 kids out of a district enrollment of 2400 kids.

Again, you may see this as prejudiced, but you know what, it is really reverse discrimination. Transfer this over to sports-the boys teams get a budget of $1 million/year, the girls teams get a budget of $100,000, but that is ok because they aren't as strong as the boys. Same difference.

When the federal mandates came out for special education, they were fully funded by the federal government and then slowly the federal funding has been reduced and now most districts have to support all this programing, yet they still have to follow federal mandates. Districts have to funnel so much money into these programs that the programing for the rest of the students suffers. How is that even right? Again, it is a case of minority rule.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Perhaps what is "fair" is not always "right." Maybe if people would stop being so selfish...my kid deserves it because some other kid got it...our kids would learn that the world does not revolve around him/her. So what if an average kid doesn't get the same "benefits" from the school system. Maybe it is time the parents steped p to the plate and started supplementing the education of their children if they have an issue with it.

Life is not fair or equitable. Some children are geniuses (not many), most kids are average, and a few need some extra help. Not all kids belong in TAG classes, not all AP classes are equal, not all seniors deserve to go to Princton.

Loved the "Bright" vs. "Gifted" comparison!

 

[ChrisnSteph]

Perhaps what is "fair" is not always "right." Maybe if people would stop being so selfish...my kid deserves it because some other kid got it...our kids would learn that the world does not revolve around him/her. So what if an average kid doesn't get the same "benefits" from the school system. Maybe it is time the parents steped p to the plate and started supplementing the education of their children if they have an issue with it.

Life is not fair or equitable. Some children are geniuses (not many), most kids are average, and a few need some extra help. Not all kids belong in TAG classes, not all AP classes are equal, not all seniors deserve to go to Princton.

Loved the "Bright" vs. "Gifted" comparison!

ITA! And as far as the arguement goes as to amount of money spent on special education for the handicapped, what is "right" is not always "fair."

 

[orangeblossom]

This is why I'm so glad I went to private school. It enabled our teachers and administrators to see each individual case and identify the talented/gifted students on their own merits without a test with an arbitrary measurement (we did take those tests and I was LUCKY enough to always be in the 99% in everything, but I still feel that the personal knowledge that the teachers had of each of us helped a lot of people. For instance, my best friend had a 4.5 GPA but did not test well. She got under 1000 on her SAT's.)

 

[missypie]

Interesting thread. DS14 is identified gifted AND is in the special ed program. (Asperger's Syndrome.) When we have our annual ARD (special ed) meeting, there are alwys folks in attendance who we can tell just want us out of there...it's really hard to argue for special ed. assistance in G/T and pre-AP classes.

All three of our children have been "identified" as gifted, but I can tell you that only DS14 really is. My girls are bright and good at school...the "honor roll" students. DS is the one with the wacko/off the wall/orginal thoughts that exemplifiy the truly gifted child.

It's interesting to read what other districts do for their G/T classes. In our elem. schools, it's a pull out program. one or 2 hours a week. In middle school and HS, anyone can sign up for pre-AP and AP courses, but only the identifed kids can take the special "discoveries" courses that combine English and Soc. Studies. Believe me, not all the G/T kids get good grades...it takes organization and good study habits to get good grades and not all the G/T kids have those skills. But DS - with all of his Asperger's quirks - has fit in so well with the other G/T kids because it's sure a quirky bunch!

 

[Becky2005]

I think we often confuse BRIGHT students with GIFTED students.

Here is a chart that will define HOW a truly gifted student differs from a bright one.

http://www.memphis-schools.k12.tn.us/admin/curriculum/clue/comparison.html

That was interesting! I see my DS-8 in the "gifted" part! BUT he's one of the "what in the world do we do with this kid" type. He doesn't fit the mold! He is actually behind on reading (but comprehension is above level) - they believe dyslexic yet Math is his strong point and he actually tested "well above average" for something (I forgot now but it was basically in what would be considered the gifted category) and just a few points off of well above average for several others. He does have an IEP which is why we had the tesing done, I knew he was smart but was a bit surprised to see *how* smart on some of the stuff. We don't have gifted classes here per se, just "Enrichment" ones for Math & Reading. I would love for him to get into the Math one but the fact that he can't read the story problems is probably an issue.

However, he has always been one to just "get" stuff...you can be thinking he's not paying attention to you and then can just rattle off what you were talking about and usually with some unique perspective.

I've always said grade school will NOT be where DS excels - it will be once he gets into Middle School/High School where you can specialize - give him Calculus and beginning English at the same time!

 

[wvrevy]

Count me as one that thinks we should have more funding for gifted programs. When I was a kid, the gifted program was a one-day-per-week affair. We rode the bus to a junior high in the next city over, and spent the day there with kids from other local elementary schools. The program consisted of any number of "critical thinking" -type excercises, and was easily my favorite part of the school week.

Now, I have no idea what the "requirements" were back then, but the testing process was actually fun for me. Yeah, I'm one of those people that actually enjoys taking tests (DW thinks I'm nuts ). There was a written portion, as well as several excercises with a psychologist (stuff like, "repeat the following number (1726354) in reverse order" and various puzzles). Again, I have no idea what actual "score" was needed on the test, but I can tell you that I never, through 12 years of primary and secondary school, scored lower than 98th percentile in any subject. Now, I'm not saying that to brag, but simply to illustrate what they might be looking for in kids that they call "gifted".

Just my $.02.....

 

[missypie]

Note that if you have a child who is very bright in a particular area, there may be other ways to obtain enrichment other than the G/T program. Our district has a program called "telescoping" for math, where the math brains can go to math class in a higher grade. Last year, one of our 5th graders who was bussed to the middle school for 6th grade pre-AP math won the middle school award for the highest 6th grade math average. We have 8th graders who are taking geometry at the high school.

 

[meandtheguys2]

It would be NICE to have more funding for all kinds of things, but you there is only a certain amount of money to be allotted. It doesn't cost aything to make things challenging/interesting for kids. And maybe it is the parents responsiblity to provide the extra time, thought and effort into their kid.

What kind of guy LIKES to take tests...

 

[golfgal]

It would be NICE to have more funding for all kinds of things, but you there is only a certain amount of money to be allotted. It doesn't cost aything to make things challenging/interesting for kids. And maybe it is the parents responsiblity to provide the extra time, thought and effort into their kid.

What kind of guy LIKES to take tests...

This is fine and dandy and yes, parents can augment what a child learns in school, but kids are in school a good portion of their waking hours and the parents can only do so much during those hours. Our oldest (who is a good student but not gifted) is in school from 8-3 (except for Jazz Band days he starts at 7 am). In the spring and fall he runs cross country/track. He gets home from practice at 5-5:30. We eat dinner and then he starts his homework. He has anywhere from 1-3 hours of homework each night, which puts him doing homework until bedtime (after he takes a shower). There just isn't that much time to provide 'extra' learning if your child is involved in something other then homework.

The problem with most schools is that they integrate all the classes. There are pros and cons to this but what it means in the long run is that the kids that catch on the fastest are penalized because the teacher has to spend so much extra time helping those that don't catch on as fast. Take 3 kids and try to teach them the same thing, the same way and see how far you get with all of them. Unfortuantly the teachers have to teach to the lowest level of students in the class. Schools that provide advanced courses or AP classes are a bit better off because it takes the top kids out of the classes and allows them to move more quickly and it give the teachers of the regular classes more time with the kids that need that work.

One town we lived in went as far as to set aside an entire school for G/T kids. The did district-wide testing and took teacher recommendations and the top 10% of the students were selected to go to this school. It didn't cost the district any more to do this since they were operating with the same number of staff, buildings, etc.

For the advanced kids, they need more stimulation then an extra hour or so with mom and dad (providing that mom and dad are even up to speed with what their child is capable of learning-there is a post here about helping kids with homework and how many people couldn't help their elementary student with math).

 

[meandtheguys2]

I agree that it is almost difficult to teach to the talented with the integrated classrooms. I also believe that a parent needs to take the steps to improve the situation. The schedule your guy is folowing is really tough. But it sounds as though it is tough through his choosing to be in track. Can't he do homework at lunch or in study hall?

A parent can initiate activities on the weekends, through the summer, and on vacations. Even with a couple of hours of homework, an activity that involves an interest in the evening rather than TV. There are plenty of options to learn. That are not just another bit of work. A parent doesn't have to be able to do the work when a child is that age. They whould be able to follow thru on their own.

It is a shame that your old school had a situation that you liked so much more. It would be nice if the schools looked toward what is working elsewhere!