Gifted classes/school --- why the overwhelming demand?

[Leajess99]

So you all really don't think parents ever push for inappropriate placement for their own egos? You never see parents live vicariously through their children?

I'm sure there are some but as with everything else, just because there are some does not mean all are that way.

I know my college professor one year used to be a GT teacher in Florida before relocating and teaching at the university I attended. She was telling about one parent whose child was identified as not qualifying for GT based on their testing so they had private testing done. Well he qualified based off the private testing and had to be admitted. Sure that was probably for the egos.

The ego thing goes with sports, music, band, beauty pageants etc. It is not GT. I doubt anyone of you throwing out the ego claim has NEVER bragged on your children or their accomplishments. That bragging is an ego boost to your.

 

[snowy76]

ditto. It is encouraging poor behaivor, including lying and cheating. Good students are more concerned about the persception of others than learning. Parents are too, sadly.

High school teacher here.

Ginny's right to an extent, at least where I teach. We are seeing this too, with academics the way we've always seen it in sports and other areas. There are some parents out there now that are the equivalent of the parent in the bleachers screaming at the coach.

We had a big push a few years back for more "collaborative" learning at the younger levels, and now we're seeing it morph into something bizarre, where they're just copying EVERYTHING. Blatant plagiarism in honors papers. Copying and pasting Wikipedia articles. It's becoming more blatant among the upper level classes (honors, AP etc.). Thing is, the kids will tell you "but it's done!" like that's the goal.

We make course recommendations for our kids. Every year I find several students were placed in the AP level class the following year w/o my rec (they'll have a C or a B-). Parents complain; guidance and/or an admin goes above my head and says basically it's their money, their risk. Then I have the AP teacher asking me the following year why does so-and-so struggle so much? And the quality of the AP course drops because the AP teacher has to do remediation (relative to what's expected of kids in AP).

Often the kids in question are very NICE kids. But nice and respectful doesn't mean smart enough to handle college work. Then the kid struggles and resorts to cheating. And the circle of life continues...

 

[Cinderella94]

High school senior who's always been in the GT program and AP classes here. Yep, there's maybe a few instances of plagarism/cheating/the like from students in my classes, but I can say that it's because of laziness and the fact that those few students shouldn't be in those classes to begin with. No one here in the top classes cheats because of the pressure or whatever-we just stay up 'til 2 AM if we have to to get everything done...and those instances where cheating occurs are because of laziness. And I can also tell you that a lot of my school drinks or does drugs- most of those are not the kids going to college let alone a top college. Do some of the AP kids drink and party, absolutely, but most of it comes from the lower level kids at my school. I'd be curious to know the percentage of students at my school that go on to 4 year universities...I honestly don't know. But you can bet that most if not all of the AP kids do.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

High school teacher here.

Ginny's right to an extent, at least where I teach. We are seeing this too, with academics the way we've always seen it in sports and other areas. There are some parents out there now that are the equivalent of the parent in the bleachers screaming at the coach.

We had a big push a few years back for more "collaborative" learning at the younger levels, and now we're seeing it morph into something bizarre, where they're just copying EVERYTHING. Blatant plagiarism in honors papers. Copying and pasting Wikipedia articles. It's becoming more blatant among the upper level classes (honors, AP etc.). Thing is, the kids will tell you "but it's done!" like that's the goal.

We make course recommendations for our kids. Every year I find several students were placed in the AP level class the following year w/o my rec (they'll have a C or a B-). Parents complain; guidance and/or an admin goes above my head and says basically it's their money, their risk. Then I have the AP teacher asking me the following year why does so-and-so struggle so much? And the quality of the AP course drops because the AP teacher has to do remediation (relative to what's expected of kids in AP).

Often the kids in question are very NICE kids. But nice and respectful doesn't mean smart enough to handle college work. Then the kid struggles and resorts to cheating. And the circle of life continues...

And then you have my 14yodd. They recommended here for ALL HONORS and they are excited for her. They know she is bored in their classes however she tries to make the best of it.

They love to have her teach the class and so do the kids in her class.

She may not REALLY be "gifted" however by God is she bright and she wants to learn. Although she can write and speak and capture an audience, so yes she is probably "gifted" in those areas.

Did she get a 30 on the ACT in 7th grade? No, she got a 24. She is going to work her can off to do well and make it to that 32. Math is not her strong suit however she does not suck either.

Those are the kids that need to be in the advanced classes. However the IQ tests stop them from getting the education they need in some of the school districts here in Missouri. Heck some are banned from taking honors if they are not in the "gifted program". That is wrong.

I moved into a district that offers "challenge" classes in middle school as well as gifted. Kids in challenge can go into advanced HS classes.

Yes there are going to be kids that take high school classes that they should not take them, however don't change the system for the kids that want to be there and this is the only way for them to get in.

The system is freaking stupid and you have to work it.

 

[GinnyEmma]

I don't think every parent is a self centered a. Don't be stupid. I do know that parents will scream, threaten and bribe to get their kids into the program. I do not think that people should be a necessity for a child to be labeled gifted to get into an honors class, btw. I think that they should be interested and have basic ability and willigness to work. Not a label. Sometimes that is where a spark is ignited. But if they flounder it needs to be dealt with. Again without screaming, threats or bribes.

Nor do I think every student cheats or is begging mom and dad for ritalin or buying it. We are seeing it more and more. Then they ask for referrals for college scholarships! Nutty people.

Mine are homeschooled and have earned scholarships. It isn't like your momma told you...not everyone who disagrees with you is jealous.

 

[GinnyEmma]

btw, you don't have to be posting on facebook to live vicariously through your child. People do it all the time. The parent who wasn't allowed to take ballet and play soccer puts their kid in both, and tosses in Mandarin Chinese, too.

People who brag about their kids doing six hours of homework every night should be fighting the system rather than bragging.

 

[golfgal]

You do know that there are prep classes for 4 year old to get into these types of programs, right. People are putting their PRESCHOOLERS into prep classes so they test better--tell me this isn't parent ego driving this

 

[disney junky]

For argument's sake, how do you justify spending resources on kids who refuse to engage themselves in their own education and/or disrupt the educational opportunities for everyone else?

Do you think it's better to spend limited resources on students who take no responsibility for the privilege of education or spend those same resources to allow students who are choosing to put forth effort?

I can't. Our gifted program here, if we cut through all the crap, is mostly about keeping the parents happy. Our "gifted" teacher has no formal training in the teaching of gifted students.

I love your question because I've been battling with that question for decades now. When does a kid forfeit the right to his education? If I were king of the world, I'd give him (or her) a hard dose of reality and suggest he find his education in the school of hard knocks. If you don't perform or are disruptive in a private school setting, that school dismisses you. Public schools don't have that option. And trust me, I've seen student be intentionally disruptive because they have the power to do so and know it. I can't imagine the cost of these students in real dollars.

Further, and this is the saddest part of education now, once a student passes whatever state mandated test is required, he doesn't matter in the eyes of some schools. We literally identify the kids individually who are close to passing and create special classes for them, tutoring opportunities, not because we care about them being educated, but because we need to make AYP. If we don't, we get put on a list, and our funds are cut or the state takes over the school (like it's not running it already). But this is the state of public education today.

 

[GinnyEmma]

You do know that there are prep classes for 4 year old to get into these types of programs, right. People are putting their PRESCHOOLERS into prep classes so they test better--tell me this isn't parent ego driving this

Isn't that sad?

 

[The Mystery Machine]

You do know that there are prep classes for 4 year old to get into these types of programs, right. People are putting their PRESCHOOLERS into prep classes so they test better--tell me this isn't parent ego driving this

Yes but that is not happening here in Missouri, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

You cannot punish all children because some parents are idiots.

 

[jrmasm]

And then you have my 14yodd. They recommended here for ALL HONORS and they are excited for her. They know she is bored in their classes however she tries to make the best of it.

They love to have her teach the class and so do the kids in her class.

She may not REALLY be "gifted" however by God is she bright and she wants to learn. Although she can write and speak and capture an audience, so yes she is probably "gifted" in those areas.

Did she get a 30 on the ACT in 7th grade? No, she got a 24. She is going to work her can off to do well and make it to that 32. Math is not her strong suit however she does not suck either.

Those are the kids that need to be in the advanced classes. However the IQ tests stop them from getting the education they need in some of the school districts here in Missouri. Heck some are banned from taking honors if they are not in the "gifted program". That is wrong.

I moved into a district that offers "challenge" classes in middle school as well as gifted. Kids in challenge can go into advanced HS classes.

Yes there are going to be kids that take high school classes that they should not take them, however don't change the system for the kids that want to be there and this is the only way for them to get in.

The system is freaking stupid and you have to work it.

It's crazy to use an IQ test to determine entrance into AP and Honors class. AP/Honors classes are a totally different beast than gifted programs.

 

[golfgal]

Yes but that is not happening here in Missouri, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

You cannot punish all children because some parents are idiots.

Who said I was punishing anyone? . The point is even just the title of the classes "Gifted and Talented" lends itself to stroking a parent's ego. Even here on this board parents constantly throw out that their child is "in G/T" when they talk about any issue with school. The problem is most of these kids are just really good students and do not meet the true definition of a "gifted" child. I also think that if schools tried to change their course titles to "advanced" classes, which is what most of these programs really are, parents would fight that because they can no longer say that their child is "gifted". Do schools need advanced track programs, Absolutely!! Are 99% of the kids in "Gifted/Talented" classes really "gifted", no.

 

[GinnyEmma]

It's crazy to use an IQ test to determine entrance into AP and Honors class. AP/Honors classes are a totally different beast than gifted programs.

I agree.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

It's crazy to use an IQ test to determine entrance into AP and Honors class. AP/Honors classes are a totally different beast than gifted programs.

Yes...but they do it there. It is wrong. Now you understand my fury. I am NO longer in that district, because I would have killed someone.

 

[okeydokey]

You do know that there are prep classes for 4 year old to get into these types of programs, right. People are putting their PRESCHOOLERS into prep classes so they test better--tell me this isn't parent ego driving this

I think this is a very very small percentage of people. Maybe in some areas this is done, but here in FL, I never heard such a thing, nor in any other place I have lived.

 

[okeydokey]

Who said I was punishing anyone? . The point is even just the title of the classes "Gifted and Talented" lends itself to stroking a parent's ego. Even here on this board parents constantly throw out that their child is "in G/T" when they talk about any issue with school. The problem is most of these kids are just really good students and do not meet the true definition of a "gifted" child. I also think that if schools tried to change their course titles to "advanced" classes, which is what most of these programs really are, parents would fight that because they can no longer say that their child is "gifted". Do schools need advanced track programs, Absolutely!! Are 99% of the kids in "Gifted/Talented" classes really "gifted", no.

Once again you are talking about your area and generalizing to everywhere else. You just refuse to see that your opinion about your small experience isn't everyone's experience. In a school of 500, there are about 12 kids in my son's program here in my Florida County. I don't think 99% of them don't belong.

 

[cabanafrau]

btw, you don't have to be posting on facebook to live vicariously through your child. People do it all the time. The parent who wasn't allowed to take ballet and play soccer puts their kid in both, and tosses in Mandarin Chinese, too.

People who brag about their kids doing six hours of homework every night should be fighting the system rather than bragging.

Ooh, I didn't take ballet, play soccer or learn Mandarin. I do have a DD who has chosen both ballet & Mandarin. Note, she chose both & continues to choose both. I had no interest in ballet growing up. Soccer wasn't really the norm when I was young. Mandarin? You might as well have offered me Martian, because neither was anywhere on the radar.

I did mention in this thread that I'm a dance mom. If you knew me IRL you'd know that's pretty much a non-starter for me. I stink at being a dance mom most of the time. If I ruled the world both of my DD's would play piano and violin, study French, be vying for editor of their school newspapers, intern at the library, never again pick up a single piece of junk reading such as Twilight, etc. and run on the cross country teams at school.

Imagine that, neither of my girls is living my vision for them, period. Or are they? Like any parent I want better for my girls and I have encouraged each of them to find their own passion & go after it. Do I want them to succeed? Absolutely. Am I proud of their achievements? Absolutely. Is there something wrong with feeling proud of them? Do you want to beat me down for feeling grateful they're healthy, too?

As far as my comments about homework, please fill me in where exactly I said I was referring to either of my children on this topic. Maybe you could point out the boast or the brag in regard to the homework subject at all? I merely discussed a HS program in our area that has what I think are remarkable results and the workload required in response to another poster's contention that kids with strong aptitude develop lousy work ethics. I also stated that I would never have believed an average of six-hours homework per night was workable or justified for anybody. I've come to believe differently after what I've seen go on with kids in this program.

Sadly it appears I'm completely uninformed on the meaning of the word brag. Unfortunately the word for today on my vocabulary boosting calendar is assume, not brag, but I'll hold out hope brag will make its appearance sooner rather than later. You will no doubt be relieved to know that I have really put some effort into today's vocab lesson and I do believe I now have a working understanding of the meaning of assume.

 

[Poohforyou]

You do know that there are prep classes for 4 year old to get into these types of programs, right. People are putting their PRESCHOOLERS into prep classes so they test better--tell me this isn't parent ego driving this

Of course there are. Parents pushing children at all kinds of things isn't new.

Did you push your kids into golf? Perhaps get them lessons at a very young age? Are you proud of the athletic achievement? Do you ever brag about it?

I can't speak for anyone else but my child has never taken a prep class for anything. We'll consider it in a few years for the SATs but that's about it.

As I've said in other posts we don't have specialized schools here and kids aren't given IQ tests. Our district uses several criteria to determine a child's fit for the exceptionally able program (we don't use G&T here) including the regular state standardized testing. Just doing well on that test won't get a child into the program though.

When looking at the list below which I haven't done in a few years, my child straddles both lists. I imagine just about every child has some attributes from both.

This might interest some:

Bright Learners
Knows the answers
Is interested
Is attentive
Has good ideas
Works hard
Answers the questions
Top group
Listens with interest
Learns with ease
6-8 repetitions
Understands ideas
Enjoys peers
Grasps the meaning
Completes assignments
Is receptive
Copies accurately
Enjoys school
Absorbs information
Technician
Good memorizer
Enjoys straightforward, sequential presentation
Is alert
Is pleased with own learning

Gifted Learners
Asks the questions
Is highly curious
Is mentally and physically involved
Has wild, silly ideas
Plays around, yet tests well
Discusses in detail, elaborates
Beyond the group
Shows strong feelings and opinions
Already knows
1-2 repetitions for mastery
Constructs abstractions
Prefers adults
Draws inferences
Initiates projects
Is intense
Creates a new design
Enjoys learning
Manipulates information
Inventor
Good guesser
Thrives on complexity
Is keenly observant
Is highly self-critical

 

[dngnb8]

Just your basic average snowflakes over at my house. Can't say I'm sorry about it.

I havent seen 1 person here flame the type of child you describe. However, Ive seen quite of few very broad brushing of gifted kids and their parents.

Ginny's right to an extent, at least where I teach. We are seeing this too, with academics the way we've always seen it in sports and other areas. There are some parents out there now that are the equivalent of the parent in the bleachers screaming at the coach.

So this is a parental issue, and has nothing to do with gifted. Seems every thread here about a Gifted question has had broad brush flames about the parents as if all parents of gifted kids are like that. Ginny's post bleed bitterness.

We had a big push a few years back for more "collaborative" learning at the younger levels, and now we're seeing it morph into something bizarre, where they're just copying EVERYTHING. Blatant plagiarism in honors papers. Copying and pasting Wikipedia articles. It's becoming more blatant among the upper level classes (honors, AP etc.). Thing is, the kids will tell you "but it's done!" like that's the goal.

In the MYIB at my daughters school, those issues are cause bad marks. If indeed plagiarism is a problem, the instructor needs to step up to the plate, grade appropriately, and inform the student why.

We make course recommendations for our kids. Every year I find several students were placed in the AP level class the following year w/o my rec (they'll have a C or a B-). Parents complain; guidance and/or an admin goes above my head and says basically it's their money, their risk. Then I have the AP teacher asking me the following year why does so-and-so struggle so much? And the quality of the AP course drops because the AP teacher has to do remediation (relative to what's expected of kids in AP).

You will always have to deal with entitlement attitude from people. Its not just parents of gifted kids. Its parents of pageant kids, sports kids, and politics as well.

Often the kids in question are very NICE kids. But nice and respectful doesn't mean smart enough to handle college work. Then the kid struggles and resorts to cheating. And the circle of life continues...

Welcome to life itself. They are kids. You dont think this happens in every other facet of education? Does being "gifted" mean they arent kids and act like kids?

I don't think every parent is a self centered a. Don't be stupid. I do know that parents will scream, threaten and bribe to get their kids into the program.

And this is unique to gifted kids?

I do not think that people should be a necessity for a child to be labeled gifted to get into an honors class, btw. I think that they should be interested and have basic ability and willigness to work. Not a label. Sometimes that is where a spark is ignited. But if they flounder it needs to be dealt with. Again without screaming, threats or bribes.

Like normal kids parents?

Nor do I think every student cheats or is begging mom and dad for ritalin or buying it. We are seeing it more and more. Then they ask for referrals for college scholarships! Nutty people.

And this is unique for gifted kids?

Mine are homeschooled and have earned scholarships. It isn't like your momma told you...not everyone who disagrees with you is jealous.

Sounds like bragging to me. Seems like a little do as I say, not as I do here.

People who brag about their kids doing six hours of homework every night should be fighting the system rather than bragging.

One should fight the system so they arent forced to home school, just sayin

I can't. Our gifted program here, if we cut through all the crap, is mostly about keeping the parents happy. Our "gifted" teacher has no formal training in the teaching of gifted students.

Not all schools have the resources or can attract that training. I drive my DD14 40 miles to her school to find the best education I can for her. AZ isnt a bastion of education. I found a place that has trained instructors and counselors to deliver the education she needs.

It's crazy to use an IQ test to determine entrance into AP and Honors class. AP/Honors classes are a totally different beast than gifted programs.

I agree. Most gifted kids learn differently then the general ed system delivers.

 

[dngnb8]

Let me add this tidbit of information as well

In AZ, parents are inundated with being attentively involved in our child's education. In her elementary school, we had to sigh contracts committing hours of time to the school in programs for the kids.

I hear a lot of lip service from educators about involvement, but when we get involved, we get nothing but complaints. I dont demand scholarship recommendations, undeserved grades, or expect my child to put above all the others. But I do expect communication, respect, and no cop outs from bitter educators who are burned out.

Thank goodness my daughters educators are as energized by the program as she is. I would hate to have my child be taught by some of the people on this board who use broad brushed definitions to rationalize having to care about giving an appropriate education...