Gifted classes/school --- why the overwhelming demand?

[dngnb8]

I don't take your response as flaming at all.

That pleases me, there was no intent to flame

I'm not understanding if you are saying all gifted kids are learning disabled. I don't believe that's true. My comments refer to those kids who are not doubly gifted as it were. I stand behind my comments in that regard.

No Im not making a blanket statement My point was many people misconstrue "gifted" laziness. It is common for gifted kids to have another issue. Its not even uncommon. I believe that it is this issue people pick up on an "lable" a general pop.

Particularly in regards to dyslexia, but also somewhat with dysgraphia & some other LD's that are visual-based, I understand where much of what you say is true. It sounds like you have gone through an awful lot to figure out what the obstacles are for your daughter. Don't beat yourself up because you misunderstood some of what was going on & did the best you knew to fix the problem. My DH was dyslexic when few people outside of medical & educational fields knew what it was. He is the child of a teacher. His folks didn't understand it a bit. A colleague of his parent's was DH's teacher and became very frustrated because he could not read. The day he told my husband he must be ******** was what finally made my in-law's take action.

As horrible as it was to be told by an adult authority figure that you must be ********, DH survived it and eventually thrived. Your misunderstanding of the early signs of your DD's LD and attempting to do something to correct course pale in comparison. With the obvious amount of learning you have obviously done to get her help, I am sure she realizes she is intelligent and that she is loved & supported. There's not a lot more a parent can do to make sure their child succeeds educationally.

Whether we agree or disagree about this on the fine points or the bigger ones, it's okay to talk about it without feeling flamed.

You kind of caught me off guard. My wife says I have been a bit rough on myself but I have always been my worst critic.

Since I have gotten here (DIS Boards) and participated in this topic, Ive received personal attacks, condescension, and overall general rude treatment for standing up for Gifted Children and the Ostracizing (is that a word) that the kids and parents typically receive.

You m'am, are the exception to forum posting population. Thank you for your kindness.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

btw, you don't have to be posting on facebook to live vicariously through your child. People do it all the time. The parent who wasn't allowed to take ballet and play soccer puts their kid in both, and tosses in Mandarin Chinese, too.

People who brag about their kids doing six hours of homework every night should be fighting the system rather than bragging.

So because I grew up playing the piano & trumpet, played football, basketball & baseball, was in the TAG program in elementary school, sang in a children's choir, did plays at the local children's theater, traveled extensively over the summers, was on the swim team at our country club, tried to learn German (major fail on that one), and basically had a fantastic life as a child, am I exempt from suspicion? My daughter, after all, does far fewer things than I did, so I'm evidently not living vicariously through her. (And while Mandarin would be a very useful thing to learn, my daughter has no interest.)

Look, I don't dispute that some parents do what you state, but it hasn't been my experience and I don't see it as the pervasive problem that you and a few others apparently do, leading me to question the real reason behind the vitriol that you spew towards children who are selected for a TAG program and towards their parents who love them and are proud of them. My daughter is in Kindergarten, and we haven't seen a shadow of this behavior from the other parents, nor from our peers who have kids in school, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere. But that doesn't negate that my daughter is beyond the average Kindergartener's typical progress and that we want her to continue to be challenged in school. As I said earlier, we didn't even know about the TAG program at our school, and it doesn't normally exist for Kindergarteners. The school made the choice for our daughter, and for three other children in her class, and while we're pleased that she's enjoying the extra opportunities, we're certainly not defining her, much less ourselves, by her inclusion.

 

[GinnyEmma]

Ummmmmm, if it doesn't apply let it go. Maybe you aren't one that pushes for your own ego. Not every parent is a nit and some kids really are talented and gifted. Clear now?

Lol, just caught that your oldest is 6. You are basing your opinions in 6 months in the school program? Do you teach? Or work extensively with families and children? Interesting! I'm sure you know more than people with far more experience in the system and parenting.

 

[NotUrsula]

You do know that there are prep classes for 4 year old to get into these types of programs, right. People are putting their PRESCHOOLERS into prep classes so they test better--tell me this isn't parent ego driving this

Yes but that is not happening here in Missouri, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

You cannot punish all children because some parents are idiots.

Ahem. Yes, parents in Missouri are doing this; it's actually quite common among us city folk. I work about an hour a day with my 3yo on materials that might help her do better on placement tests, and I know folks with more money than I have who have put their children in formal prep classes. We do it because there are a total of less than 50 really high quality kindergarten spots in SLPS; the competition is fierce. (FTR, her IQ is more than sufficient to qualify, but she was rejected last year for the preschool lottery because her math skills were not considered sufficient.) Private school has been quite expensive, and if some prep is required to give us a chance at not having to pay that much for a quality education this time around, I'm going to do what I can to shorten the odds.)

 

[Colleen27]

Around here, gifted programs tend to be the way all classes should be run if this was a perfect world - hands on projects, low teacher-student ratios, time to go more in depth into subjects, few behavioural issues, and more tailored/individualized lessons. It is only natural that ALL parents, not just those with kids who are truly gifted, would want that for their bright, high-achieving, or academically curious kids.

There is also, in smaller schools, a drive to expand the program as a way of justifying its existence/funding. True giftedness is pretty rare, I've seen the number put at anywhere from 1 to 3% of students depending on the standards being used, and it is very hard to get a school to fund something for 1 or 2 students per grade level. Expand it to a program that challenges the bright-normal, high-achieving, honor society set and it is a lot easier to justify the funding come budget time.

 

[ccgirl]

Ahem. Yes, parents in Missouri are doing this; it's actually quite common among us city folk. I work about an hour a day with my 3yo on materials that might help her do better on placement tests, and I know folks with more money than I have who have put their children in formal prep classes. We do it because there are a total of less than 50 really high quality kindergarten spots in SLPS; the competition is fierce. (FTR, her IQ is more than sufficient to qualify, but she was rejected last year for the preschool lottery because her math skills were not considered sufficient.) Private school has been quite expensive, and if some prep is required to give us a chance at not having to pay that much for a quality education this time around, I'm going to do what I can to shorten the odds.)

Just goes to show you, again, how things can vary not only state to state but district to district within the state. K is not even required here so we don't see that. I didn't realize K was so competitive, I was happy my DD learned to tie her shoes, could write her name and all that good stuff. Around here, once you get into classes like that you actually have maintain certain grades or you're reassigned to a different level the next year.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Ahem. Yes, parents in Missouri are doing this; it's actually quite common among us city folk. I work about an hour a day with my 3yo on materials that might help her do better on placement tests, and I know folks with more money than I have who have put their children in formal prep classes. We do it because there are a total of less than 50 really high quality kindergarten spots in SLPS; the competition is fierce. (FTR, her IQ is more than sufficient to qualify, but she was rejected last year for the preschool lottery because her math skills were not considered sufficient.) Private school has been quite expensive, and if some prep is required to give us a chance at not having to pay that much for a quality education this time around, I'm going to do what I can to shorten the odds.)

I am not talking about your uppity Ladue and Town and Country schools. I am talking about us poor folk here in the public schools. We don't have your same problems with lotteries. And there are no "high quality" anything here.

Here in the burbs you pick the district that matches your kid and hope for the best.

 

[islandmum]

GIFTED = most overused term ever for bright, smart kids

truly gifted people are rare, not even generally one per school, its like a handful per 100,000.

Gifted and talented classes and extra-curricular coaching has been a way for the education systems to move achieving students on further .... Gifted was the WRONG word to use for it as now every parent who's kid qualifies (as one of mine does) automatically thinks they are "gifted", when in all reality 99% are just smart kids.

Mine is smart, I'd never quantify him as gifted in the true sense. Kids who read age 2 are smart - not gifted, kids who think differently and are more perceptive are smart - not gifted, kids who run off tests faster then others are smart - not gifted. Write an opera at 5, or draw a skyline in exact detail from memory having seen it only once ..... then you're gifted!

But the words stuck now. Amazingly our school has over 20 gifted children in a tiny school of less than 100 kids!

 

[GinnyEmma]

GIFTED = most overused term ever for bright, smart kids

truly gifted people are rare, not even generally one per school, its like a handful per 100,000.

Gifted and talented classes and extra-curricular coaching has been a way for the education systems to move achieving students on further .... Gifted was the WRONG word to use for it as now every parent who's kid qualifies (as one of mine does) automatically thinks they are "gifted", when in all reality 99% are just smart kids.

Mine is smart, I'd never quantify him as gifted in the true sense. Kids who read age 2 are smart - not gifted, kids who think differently and are more perceptive are smart - not gifted, kids who run off tests faster then others are smart - not gifted. Write an opera at 5, or draw a skyline in exact detail from memory having seen it only once ..... then you're gifted!

But the words stuck now. Amazingly our school has over 20 gifted children in a tiny school of less than 100 kids!

It is like the thread a few days back about overused words. Gifted no longer means gifted. It means smart. It is now just another way to make the red birds, blue birds and yellow birds since placing kids at level is frowned apart.

lol, what should we expect from a culture that says "we are all winners" and chooses not to keep score at tball games.

 

[Poohforyou]

It would depend on how they went about the process-in either direction. One example-our neighbor's DD is in band with our kids, same age, plays a different instrument. They do tryouts in the spring for placement for band next year (we have 8 concert bands). Her DD is in the 3rd highest band this year and will stay in that band next year. When our neighbor found out about this she was LIVID. She went up to school and layed into the band directors that her DD should be moved up to the top band-her reasoning, because she is friends with the top trumpet player in the band . She is LAST Chair in her band now. Yes, I criticize her for that because it is just stupid. This is the same attitude you see with a lot of parents trying to get their kids into the G/T programs-and sports and music and pageants, etc. Yep, I criticize these parents with this attitude. Now, if they wanted to schedule a meeting with the teacher, get some information about why she was not moved up and what things she needed to work on to improve her chances of moving up to the top band as a senior, ok, I am fine with that (although I think the DD should do that).

Now, if your school only has basic skills classes and needs something between gifted and basic, I would try to work through the school district to offer more advanced classes for the better students-which is what they really need. If we landed in a district that only had those choices I would move or figure out a way to supplement the kids' education if they didn't get into the G/T programs.

Part of why we picked the district we did when we moved is that they have 6 levels of learning options-basic, advanced, honors, AP/CIS (college in the schools). They also have special ed classes and a post-secondary option where kids go to one of the 4 year colleges/universities and take classes there for high school and college credits (this is a statewide option). Most of the better students in high school do a combination of the AP/CIS/Post secondary options. The kids that are pretty good students, still going on to college but not to super selective colleges take a combination of the advanced/honors courses-maybe an AP class in their best subject. Kids going on to community college usually take a combo of the basic/advanced classes, etc.

I'm not talking about the lunatic parents and that's exactly the type that your example illustrates. I don't personally know anyone like that.

As for my child, the only thing I did to initiate my DD getting into our advanced programs here is to complete an application asking that she be evaluated after having a conversation at conference time with her 2nd grade teacher. Four years later she's still in these programs because her standardized test scores, grades and teacher evaluations indicate she continues to benefit from them and can manage the expectation. My involvement now is signing off on her EALP each year.

By the way, we moved to our district because it's one of the top in the state. We're very happy where we are and DD is getting an amazing education. We have plenty of options and they vary by the level of schooling.

In elementary school we have learning disabled, basic skills, typical classroom and exceptional learner.

In middle school they add advanced classes between typical classroom and exceptional learner. My DD is in a typical classroom, advanced classes or the exceptional learner program depending on the subject.

In HS there are AP classes adding another layer to the options.

 

[NotUrsula]

I am not talking about your uppity Ladue and Town and Country schools. I am talking about us poor folk here in the public schools. We don't have your same problems with lotteries. And there are no "high quality" anything here.

Here in the burbs you pick the district that matches your kid and hope for the best.

I am TALKING about public schools -- St. Louis CITY Public Schools. If you want to be in the Magnet Admissions Lottery for Kennard or Mallinkrodt (which are essentially the only two really good SLPS elementary schools that are not charters, and which both happen to be in our neighborhood), then the child has to first pass assessment tests.

The private prep schools don't have lotteries; they have admissions committees. The private schools I've been paying for over the last 9 years are not in that price range; just ordinary RC parochial school, but it's expensive enough that I'd prefer not to have to pay for it. In the City almost no one who can afford to do otherwise just sends their kids to the school that the district assigns them to, because almost all of the regular schools are either in physical disrepair or have discipline issues. If your child cannot get into a good magnet or a good charter, then you go to the religious-affiliated schools.

PS: Yes, I understood that you really meant suburban schools, but I was replying to the original idea that test prep for preschoolers never happens in Missouri. There are an easy 10,000 families with kids in the St. Louis City and Kansas City Public schools who end up jumping through these hoops -- we live in Missouri, too.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I am TALKING about public schools -- St. Louis CITY Public Schools. If you want to be in the Magnet Admissions Lottery for Kennard or Mallinkrodt (which are essentially the only two really good SLPS elementary schools that are not charters, and which both happen to be in our neighborhood), then the child has to first pass assessment tests.

The private prep schools don't have lotteries; they have admissions committees. The private schools I've been paying for over the last 9 years are not in that price range; just ordinary RC parochial school, but it's expensive enough that I'd prefer not to have to pay for it.

I know and I was talking about your typical public schools in the burbs.

Your city and private schools are not "regular schools". You have to jump through hoops to get what you need.

We just sign up for the school in our district and go to school. No tests, no nothing.

 

[GinnyEmma]

I'm honestly really intrigued (and a bit disgusted) by some of these comments. I will be 31 in June.

Currently I have a 4th grader, a 3rd grader, and one in preschool. Their education is the most important thing in the world to me.

I want them to have every opportunity available to them when it comes to education. They are enrolled in music lessons, because the schools do not offer it. They play soccer, again, after school, because the schools do not offer it. I pay out of pocket for these things. My way of thinking is that paying for these has always been a better choice than buying clothes with that money.

My kids may not be in the g/t program, but I should at least give them every opportunity to learn.

I'm sorry, I gather I misread/quoted you! I was thinking that the poster who I thought you quoted was a young stepmom for concerned about the teens clothes and popularity than for his education. My apologies.

No reason for intrique or disgust. I have nearly 30 years involvement with the school systems and dealing with parents. And 20 years experience parenting. My posts are brief due to rheumatoid arthritis, so i try to keep to the facts.

 

[Colleen27]

GIFTED = most overused term ever for bright, smart kids

truly gifted people are rare, not even generally one per school, its like a handful per 100,000.

Gifted and talented classes and extra-curricular coaching has been a way for the education systems to move achieving students on further .... Gifted was the WRONG word to use for it as now every parent who's kid qualifies (as one of mine does) automatically thinks they are "gifted", when in all reality 99% are just smart kids.

Mine is smart, I'd never quantify him as gifted in the true sense. Kids who read age 2 are smart - not gifted, kids who think differently and are more perceptive are smart - not gifted, kids who run off tests faster then others are smart - not gifted. Write an opera at 5, or draw a skyline in exact detail from memory having seen it only once ..... then you're gifted!

I think that is far too narrow a definition. That would be like saying only non-verbal, non-educatable, profoundly handicapped students fit the "special education" label. The IQ cutoffs I've seen most commonly for defining giftedness are 130ish - that's two standard deviations above median, the same difference from "normal" as someone with an IQ of 70, and encompasses about 3% of the population. I think there are genuine accommodations that need to be made to educate someone on that level, not on par with the needs of a true prodigy but enough so that a typical classroom isn't likely to be a good fit.

I agree that the term is overused. Not every honor roll student is gifted - it is very possible to get there through conscientious habits rather than innate ability - but giftedness isn't fraction-of-a-percent rare either.

 

[Jedana]

I wish DS's school would have a better G&T program! Right now, it stands at one hour one day a week, during what would art/music/p.e. time. All the G&T students, from 1st to 5th, are grouped into one room, and all are taught the same thing. This month, the theme is oceans....same theme that the whole school is learning....with the same books they are learning from.

Yeah. It doesn't work. DS is in 1st grade, has been reading since he was 3, and can do multiplication in his head (just simple numbers, like 2X4 or 5X5--nothing over 5s right now). Yet he can't get any extra work from the teachers--his English class is doing addition and subtraction families right now; the Spanish class is learning about oceans. (He is in the dual language program. English and Math are in English this year; Spanish has science and Spanish. Still not enough to keep him busy!) I even offered to send the worksheets in that he does at home...no dice. When he is done with his work, he is supposed to sit and wait quietly. Can't even read.

I really really dislike the teachers this year. Last year, his teachers were awesome about keeping his mind busy. He read constantly, did worksheets from home (and some that the K teacher got from the 1st grade teachers), etc. He didn't require the teachers attention, so it wasn't distracting from other students, and he stayed out of trouble.

 

[GinnyEmma]

It is ignorant to not allow reading when his work is done. That must be so frustrating for you.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Ummmmmm, if it doesn't apply let it go. Maybe you aren't one that pushes for your own ego. Not every parent is a nit and some kids really are talented and gifted. Clear now?

Lol, just caught that your oldest is 6. You are basing your opinions in 6 months in the school program? Do you teach? Or work extensively with families and children? Interesting! I'm sure you know more than people with far more experience in the system and parenting.

I'm sorry, I gather I misread/quoted you! I was thinking that the poster who I thought you quoted was a young stepmom for concerned about the teens clothes and popularity than for his education. My apologies.

No reason for intrique or disgust. I have nearly 30 years involvement with the school systems and dealing with parents. And 20 years experience parenting. My posts are brief due to rheumatoid arthritis, so i try to keep to the facts.

Oh, and I just got it, too. You are embittered by thirty years of being average and seeing yourself and your admittedly average children being surpassed by those around you instead of being happy for others, just as I wish the best for others. Since we understand each other, we can leave it at that and go our separate ways.

Just to answer your question, however, no, I am not a teacher, and I am admittedly (in several of my prior posts) uninformed about the TAG program in my DD6's school. I'm also a relatively novice parent, although obviously one who is passionate about my children. I serve on a couple minor boards at the school because I like to help, but I know very little about schooling! I have made a very successful career, however, at a relatively young age out of reading people and knowing them better than they may even sometimes know themselves. I know it comes off as bragging, but I am employed in a very good job because I am one of the best people around at reading people, and in my job potentially tens of millions of dollars are made or lost for my company (not for me, personally) based on my ability to read people and interpret their unspoken thoughts. And I read you as a miserable, unhappy person who revels in making others feel bad about themselves. Maybe it's the pain of your disease that has made you this way, or maybe you were always this way, but, well, there it is...

 

[ccgirl]

I wish DS's school would have a better G&T program! Right now, it stands at one hour one day a week, during what would art/music/p.e. time. All the G&T students, from 1st to 5th, are grouped into one room, and all are taught the same thing. This month, the theme is oceans....same theme that the whole school is learning....with the same books they are learning from.

Yeah. It doesn't work. DS is in 1st grade, has been reading since he was 3, and can do multiplication in his head (just simple numbers, like 2X4 or 5X5--nothing over 5s right now). Yet he can't get any extra work from the teachers--his English class is doing addition and subtraction families right now; the Spanish class is learning about oceans. (He is in the dual language program. English and Math are in English this year; Spanish has science and Spanish. Still not enough to keep him busy!) I even offered to send the worksheets in that he does at home...no dice. When he is done with his work, he is supposed to sit and wait quietly. Can't even read.

I really really dislike the teachers this year. Last year, his teachers were awesome about keeping his mind busy. He read constantly, did worksheets from home (and some that the K teacher got from the 1st grade teachers), etc. He didn't require the teachers attention, so it wasn't distracting from other students, and he stayed out of trouble.

So, in your son's school what distinguishes him as G&T? I am genuinely curious as we don't have a G&T program per se. But, in 1st grade the whole class was doing multiplications in their head and reading chapter books. It never dawned on me that my DD could be "gifted" since she was doing the same things her class was doing.

As far as the no reading...that it boloney! At my DD's school they are always allowed to read quitely if they finish early. They have to keep 2 chapter books in the desks at all times for such occasions. That would really bother me too.

 

[golfgal]

OK, please try again to understand basic statistical distribution curves. If you define "gifted" as a genius IQ, then 2.275% of all children in a random pool of children will be gifted, i.e. 2+ standard deviations from the mean. If you assume that 10% of students at a school are in the school's TAG program, that indicates that 22.75% of the TAG students have genius IQs (assuming the correct kids are admitted to the program). If you assume that 25% of a random class is in the school's TAG program (a pretty liberal admission policy, but possible), then 9.1% of the TAG students have genius IQs. The only way that only 1% of the students in a TAG program are technically "gifted" is if your pool of students is less intelligent than average and you let everybody into the program.

Secondly, we are spending a lot of time harping on the "gifted" but not discussing the "talented", which is a part of nearly every program that we're discussing. This is a way of recognizing the children with extra talents, who need extra stimulation, and while they may not technically have genius IQs, the schools recognize that they benefit from additional enrichment and learning strategies.

But that is the whole point-a high IQ does NOT indicated giftedness--it means they have a high IQ, nothing more, nothing less. A TRULY gifted child could have a very, very LOW IQ for that matter, but be gifted in an area-think of an idiot savant as an example. I know of some VERY gifted musicians that are just average students. I know some kids that can think their way around electronics like no tomorrow that can barely read. GIFTEDNESS has very little to do with IQ.

I'm not talking about the lunatic parents and that's exactly the type that your example illustrates. I don't personally know anyone like that.

As for my child, the only thing I did to initiate my DD getting into our advanced programs here is to complete an application asking that she be evaluated after having a conversation at conference time with her 2nd grade teacher. Four years later she's still in these programs because her standardized test scores, grades and teacher evaluations indicate she continues to benefit from them and can manage the expectation. My involvement now is signing off on her EALP each year.

By the way, we moved to our district because it's one of the top in the state. We're very happy where we are and DD is getting an amazing education. We have plenty of options and they vary by the level of schooling.

In elementary school we have learning disabled, basic skills, typical classroom and exceptional learner.

In middle school they add advanced classes between typical classroom and exceptional learner. My DD is in a typical classroom, advanced classes or the exceptional learner program depending on the subject.

In HS there are AP classes adding another layer to the options.

If you met this woman on the street you would NEVER confuse her for a lunatic parent. Unfortunately she is turning more into the "norm" for parents than being a lunatic. Heck, my DH gets calls from Mommies for "kids" that were not hired by his company wanting to know why, "kids" that need a college degree to apply for these jobs. It happens more often than you think.

 

[FredinFL]

Holeee Smokes. I'm just glad my kids can walk and chew gum at the same time. Who knew?