Getting thrown off the plane because your fat!

[uva185]

Substitute the word "color" or "disability" for the word "size" and TA DA! A horrid and disgusting discrimination.

Again - if you agree with Southwest's failure to apply their policy with dignity, transparency, and fairness ... great. Give them your hard earned money. I, for one, will not allow them to have the opportunity to ruin my family's vacation.

Comparing obesity to racial discrimination or actual disabilities is a complete insult to those that have actually been discriminated against or have disabilities!!!

If you cannot fit into a coach seat why do you believe you are still entitled to sit there and partially occupy someone else's seat?? You are directly impacting the other passengers personal purchased space.

The airline is not required to provide a coach seat large enough to accommodate Passengers of Size. Buying an additional coach seat or simply purchasing a First Class seat is an easy way avoid having the airline "have the opportunity to ruin [your] family's vacation"

 

[GreyGooseCosmo]

Comparing obesity to racial discrimination or actual disabilities is a complete insult to those that have actually been discriminated against or have disabilities!!!

If you cannot fit into a coach seat why do you believe you are still entitled to sit there and partially occupy someone else's seat?? You are directly impacting the other passengers personal purchased space.

Never once did I state that I could not fit into a coach seat. I can only surmise that the above statement is meant for the global "you", not me personally. And along the same lines, I can only surmise that the eyerolling is because a rational discourse isn't something you're (individual you) interested in pursuing. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

And have you - both global and individual "you" - ever once considered that some people are "of size" due to a disability or sufficient medical reason? This isn't necessarily true in Mr. Smith's case (although he hasn't released his medical records for the public's review ...), but it does indeed happen. Just food for thought, meant to open your mind a bit.

The airline is not required to provide a coach seat large enough to accommodate Passengers of Size. Buying an additional coach seat or simply purchasing a First Class seat is an easy way avoid having the airline "have the opportunity to ruin [your] family's vacation"

That's not the issue at hand. The facts of the issue are as follows:

A passenger was in compliance with both the letter and the spirit of the airline's passenger of size policy as set forth here: http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/***_guidelines.html

A passenger was seated as a passenger on a flight, then was singled out by the self-same employee that seated him.

The policy, as listed above was admittedly (by the company) inequitably applied by the employee. The company continues to allow their employees to subjectively apply said policy, according to their own personal observations and preferences.

Ergo ... I choose not to be subjected to the possibility that an employee, with unlimited latitude and complete support from a major corporation, could stop my family from enjoying their vacation. As we have a competitive market society, I choose to express my displeasure with the inequitable application of the policy by "voting with my wallet" ... something a publicly traded company can certainly understand.

 

[kaytieeldr]

What is I have a small child in the seat besides me, and I "spill into his seat" would that also be a problem. And what about the seat belt?

It would be a problem on Southwest - read the link provided on (I think) page one of this thread.

Southwest feels EVERY passenger is entitled to their entire seat - and only their seat. Their policy is, the passenger must be able to put both armrests down fully - otherwise the passenger must purchase an additional seat. Needing a seatbelt extender doesn't indicate whether the passenger will be able to fit completely between the two armrests, so is not a good gauge.

I have sat on a plane next to someone who spilled over onto my seat and it was really uncomfortable. I had a hard time doing any work on my computer as I could barely move one arm and I couldn't get my tray table all the way down.

While it stinks that your arm was cramped, I'm not sure I understand how someone in an adjacent seat prevented your tray table from opening all the way :.

My hubby doesnt have any fat on his sexy body but he is 5 10 and about 250lbs wideness and hardly fits in the seat. So are they going to ask him to buy 2 seats too. It just crazy maybe they should put weight/tall/wide limit out there... just like the luggage

Well, aside from such a policy being OUTRAGEOUSLY discriminatory... take ten people who weigh 250 pounds each, and you'll have ten different heights, ten different body types, ten different hip widths. How can you justify any weight limit given these facts?

As for your husband's upper body - again, Southwest's Customer of Size page is extremely thorough, and addresses this. A person can twist their upper body (or hunch their shoulders, or lean forward, etc) to 'fit' in a seat. The same can't be done with one's hips.

Everyone wants cheap fares. However, one way they keep them cheap is to pack in as many seats as possible.

Three-by-three seating is standard. Sure, there are planes that are two-by-one, two-by-three, three-by-five-by-three... but airlines fit in more seats front to back - the seats are on a track and can be moved, removed, added.

There is NO corresponding way to add WIDTH to a plane, and with the seat tracks, planes would require a complete redesign to remove a seat from each row.
Plus, the fares would HAVE to skyrocket.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The problem is that only about 20% of the US population is comfortable in airline seats. Airlines treat customers like cattle when seating and when flying passengers around. Regardless of the size of a passenger, airline seat sizes are truly a disgrace.

And they're all under twelve

 

[shopn24seven]

He is a big guy...saw him filming Jersey Girl, but not THAT big, KWIM?

I am a little surprised it happened. Hope he makes a movie about this.

 

[bellaprincess98]

Most people do not fit within Southwest's 17" seat frame at their upper body. To me, there is no difference if you encroach on the bottom or top. My wife is exactly average weight for her height and is 18.5" from outer arm to outer arm. Should she buy another seat? That's just crazy. You can bet that if Southwest tried to remove me from a fight, I would walk down the aisle pointing out every person who's shoulders or arms are more that the 17" seat frame. I bet I'd be able to point out 3/4 of the plane. Like I said, I'm all for it for extreme cases but this has become a witch hunt. People will be sitting on Southwest planes looking for the fat people now much in the way people looked around the plane for Arab passengers after 9/11. When did we become a society of whining, complaining, entitled ********* who can't handle a small amount of contact. I hope those of you who feel this is justified in borderline cases don't have to ride the subway to work during rush hour. Or more appropriately, don't have to squeeze into the dark pre-ride show at the HM lest someone might bump into you or touch your arm or leg. Don't forget to move to the dead center of the room.

Amen Brother!

 

[taitai]

The thing is, it seems unfair to target Southwest for this. Yes, they enforced their policy a bit haphazardly. However, pretty much every airline has a version of the policy. If you don't fit, if you are encroaching on the seat next to you, then you need to buy a second seat. If that means that you need to wait until the next flight, you wait. Some airlines give you a slight discount on the seat but that is it.

I have no problems with this policy. I do think in the Kevin Smith case, it was not enforced correctly. All in all, it gave him some new publicity for his movies so good for him. It also is making more passengers aware of the rules so, hopefully, there will be fewer instances of this in the future.

 

[ratmaster]

Taitai...I don't think many on this board have a problem with Southwest's policy in theory. In fact, all airlines do have a policy to cover this subject. What offends most people on this board and on many other boards that I have seen is the way Southwest allows their employees to enforce the rules. Regardless of how fast the captain wanted the flight boarded, it should never be left up to anyone other than a very specifically trained employee to make this decision. An employee who has been well versed in the rules, has the ability to apply them uniformly and has had training on how to deal with the situation in a reasonably sensitive manner. Yes, there does need to be a rule. But for passengers to feel confident that they will be able to complete their travel as planned, whether going to WDW or for business or whatever, they need to know that the rules will be followed. People know whether they fit in the seats or not. If they are in denial, shame on them. If they are removed from a flight even after conforming to Southwest's rules, as it seems Mr. Smith was, shame on Southwest.

 

[snowbunny]

I beg to differ. Kevin Smith is lewd, crude, and can certainly be abrasive. His movies generally aren't for the faint of heart or those afraid of some coarse language. But if you carefully read his stream and listen to his podcast - you can hear that he was fatally embarrassed.

I notice you addressed all of my post except for this:

"Southwest personel said they handled it badly and were trying to apologize and make it right immediately he started his twitter war (I read the SW tweets), meantime he was telling them to F off (full word though) via twitter. "

I'm not "afraid" of coarse language. But SW was trying to deal with what it admits was poor handling of a situation and Smith's decision was to escalate, throw the F bomb. I'm not shedding any tears for him, sorry.

 

[Lewisc]

SW is saying the mistke was in allowing Smith to board in the first place. This situation doesn't call for specially trained employees. Smith indicated he's a *** when he purchased two seats for his original flight.

 

[ratmaster]

SW is saying the mistke was in allowing Smith to board in the first place. This situation doesn't call for specially trained employees. Smith indicated he's a *** when he purchased two seats for his original flight.

The point is that Smith fit into the seat and should have been allowed to fly based on Southwest's own rules. Southwest has written their own rule so that it is not open to interpretation. I'm not saying that the rule is wrong, only that anyone in a position with the power to remove someone from a flight should be clearly trained on the rules and on how to deal with the situation by giving a clear explanation, being able to answer questions (such as why they were not following their own rules) and in a discreet manner. The person in this case may have been trained but chose to disregard the rules for whatever reason and they should be reprimanded.

And, I don't want to hear anyone say that the airline can remove anyone they feel that is not fit to fly. While this is true, there is an internal policy to deal with it and it involves escalation to supervisors and managers who I would trust have the proper training to deal with the many different situations that arise in air travel...this included.

I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune if this happened to you. It doesn't have to be someone of size either. What if you have a beer at the bar before getting on your flight and the ground staff or FA's try to remove you claiming you are drunk because you smelled of alcohol. It's happened...I've seen it many times on many airlines...Southwest included. But if you knew that you were not intoxicated, I'm sure that you would expect that the decision would be made by someone who was qualified to make the decision, not by anyone who was untrained on how to tell the difference.

 

[Lewisc]

The employee who made the mistake was the GA that let Smith board the plane. Smith identified himself as a customer of size.

I'm not sure what you're really suggesting. Should a trained employee tell an overweight passenger "he's not fat enough" to qualify for the customer of size rule regarding a second seat? An overweight passenger who identifies himself as a customer of size shouldn't have the right to change is mind when it suits him.

Smith felt he needed two seats on the later flight. The seats are the same. His weight is the same.

Smith has been gaming the system.

The point is that Smith fit into the seat and should have been allowed to fly based on Southwest's own rules. Southwest has written their own rule so that it is not open to interpretation. I'm not saying that the rule is wrong, only that anyone in a position with the power to remove someone from a flight should be clearly trained on the rules and on how to deal with the situation by giving a clear explanation, being able to answer questions (such as why they were not following their own rules) and in a discreet manner. The person in this case may have been trained but chose to disregard the rules for whatever reason and they should be reprimanded.

And, I don't want to hear anyone say that the airline can remove anyone they feel that is not fit to fly. While this is true, there is an internal policy to deal with it and it involves escalation to supervisors and managers who I would trust have the proper training to deal with the many different situations that arise in air travel...this included.

I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune if this happened to you. It doesn't have to be someone of size either. What if you have a beer at the bar before getting on your flight and the ground staff or FA's try to remove you claiming you are drunk because you smelled of alcohol. It's happened...I've seen it many times on many airlines...Southwest included. But if you knew that you were not intoxicated, I'm sure that you would expect that the decision would be made by someone who was qualified to make the decision, not by anyone who was untrained on how to tell the difference.

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

The employee who made the mistake was the GA that let Smith board the plane. Smith identified himself as a customer of size.

I'm not sure what you're really suggesting. Should a trained employee tell an overweight passenger "he's not fat enough" to qualify for the customer of size rule regarding a second seat? An overweight passenger who identifies himself as a customer of size shouldn't have the right to change is mind when it suits him.

Smith felt he needed two seats on the later flight. The seats are the same. His weight is the same.

Smith has been gaming the system.

I completely agree with you. Smith was aware of the Customer of size policy and he chose to purchase 2 seats on the later flight.

While the gate agent should not have allowed Smith to board after he identified himself as a Customer of Size, Smith should have anticipated that he might be asked to leave the flight.

You can't identify yourself as falling under the company's policy and then declare that you DON'T fall under that policy when it suits you. There is no grey area on this matter. Smith purchased 2 seats, identified himself as a Customer of Size and then expected to get away with flying in one seat....why? Because he's a C list celeb? I'm sorry but the policy is clear and the company has every right to enforce it.

 

[crashbb]

Here's my question:

I would easily fit in one SW seat (admittedly, I've only flown SW once, many years ago, but I've not fit in an airplane seat, so I'll go with the assumption that I would fit).

What if I want two seats to myself? Can I buy two? Will they give me that card thingy to save the second seat? Would they refund the price of the second seat if the flight was not full? And, if the answers are no, why not? And is that fair?

 

[Hannathy]

The employee who made the mistake was the GA that let Smith board the plane. Smith identified himself as a customer of size.

I'm not sure what you're really suggesting. Should a trained employee tell an overweight passenger "he's not fat enough" to qualify for the customer of size rule regarding a second seat? An overweight passenger who identifies himself as a customer of size shouldn't have the right to change is mind when it suits him.

Smith felt he needed two seats on the later flight. The seats are the same. His weight is the same.

Smith has been gaming the system.

You got it and when they called him on it he decided to go for the free publicity, not exactly like he is an A lister that doesn't need it!! LOL

Someone said he was humiliated-bull! If he was humiliated he would want to crawl into the woodwork and have it all forgotten asap.

 

[ratmaster]

I completely agree with you. Smith was aware of the Customer of size policy and he chose to purchase 2 seats on the later flight.

While the gate agent should not have allowed Smith to board after he identified himself as a Customer of Size, Smith should have anticipated that he might be asked to leave the flight.

You can't identify yourself as falling under the company's policy and then declare that you DON'T fall under that policy when it suits you. There is no grey area on this matter. Smith purchased 2 seats, identified himself as a Customer of Size and then expected to get away with flying in one seat....why? Because he's a C list celeb? I'm sorry but the policy is clear and the company has every right to enforce it.

What about those who are borderline and may choose to purchase 2 seats so that they don't risk missing out on their vacation or their business meeting? Remember, each airline's seats are different. Depending on your build, some seats fit the same person better than others. That is even true within the airline itself. It depends on the age/model of the plane, retrofitting...etc. Just because you purchase 2 seats does not mean that you definitively fall within Southwest's "person of size" rule. There is only one way to factor that and it is written by the airline...that is that you can get the armrests down. If Smith was able to do this, he should have been allowed to stay on the flight regardless of how many seats he purchased or for whatever reason he purchased those seats. If I considered buying 2 seats just in case, I would absolutely expect to be able to get on an earlier flight that had only 1 seat open if I fell within the airline's guidelines. This is copied from the Southwest website.

Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel. The armrest is considered to be the definitive boundary between seats and measures 17 inches in width.

 

[cpbjgc]

Just agreeing with ratmaster - how is he "gaming the system" when he complies with their policy by actually fitting within the armrests? According to the SWA policy, he is good to go.

And for those who think this is something orchestrated by Smith - really? Give your head a shake - it was a bad customer service decision (because he qualified to use one seat under their policy), made on an arbitrary basis, and unfortunately for SWA it happened to someone with a twitter feed that is followed by more than 10 people.

 

[GreyGooseCosmo]

I notice you addressed all of my post except for this:

"Southwest personel said they handled it badly and were trying to apologize and make it right immediately he started his twitter war (I read the SW tweets), meantime he was telling them to F off (full word though) via twitter. "

I'm not "afraid" of coarse language. But SW was trying to deal with what it admits was poor handling of a situation and Smith's decision was to escalate, throw the F bomb. I'm not shedding any tears for him, sorry.

I can honestly tell you this:

If I gave out an "apology" like that in my line of work? One that said "yeah, we screwed up, we didn't enforce our policy equitably and a customer incurred financial harm ... BUT we can do what we want, so neener neener!" What do you think would happen to me? I can honestly tell you that I'd have government regulators and the press crawling all over me. And if I was LUCKY ... I'd just be quietly fired.

Was Smith's profanity-laced tirade the best way to handle it? Probably not. It was a bit temper-tantrumish for my tastes. However, I can certainly feel his embarassment and frustration. And seeing as how he's a very popular public figure with a million-plus follower soapbox on Twitter? I can't say that I blame him for using that forum to his advantage. I'd have put that issue on blast to all 200-ish of my followers, for sure!

My issue isn't with the policy. Having been a road (um ... air ...) warrior in a past life, I totally think it's necessary. I'd also like to have an enforceable policy to vote creepy guys off the plane in mid-flight ... like the one that touched my feet during an LAX-CLE red-eye. Ick.

My issue is the selective, insensitive, and inconsistent application of a policy that's 25 years old. The policy wasn't re-evaluated in tandem with the smaller seat sizes, and there has been, at the admission of the company, no training for those expected to carry out said policy. That's a recipe for disaster, and I'm actually glad it happened. Here's hoping that eventually, SWA gets back to their core business model ... good customer service and a fair price for a flight.

 

[a1tinkfans]

I just saw an article about the actor/director Keven Smith getting kicked off a soutwest flight because he was too fat. I am shocked! How humiliating! I feel so bad for him. He was saying in the article that he knows that he is big but he wonders why they waited until he had already boarded the plane, put his bag in the overhead compartment, and sat down before they told him to get out!

Now I'm overweight and this makes me scared. How heavy do you have to be to have something like this happen to you?

Heres my two cents:
The seats are 16 or 17 inches.
The policy is in effect over 20 years.
The situation, though appalling to some, humiliating to others and just Sad to others is not actually being reported as accurately as what has been a bit sensationalized.
I am not making excuses for sw. I know many Pooh sized people. I think it is very detrimental to their image that they kicked him off the flight...however....what I understand happening is the following:

The guy was in stand by. He wanted to get on another flight for whatever his reason.
He was therefore the very last to be placed on the flight. After everyone else is seated. since they had One seat available , they gave it to him. (if they had not let him on, that would be discriminatory IMHO) instead, they let him on.
He was then in a seat and as per their policy, was "infringing" onto the people next to him. He was unable to have both armrests placed in the down position without going over into others "space."
To the airline, thats a SAFETY issue. One is not easily able to exit past/ over in that situation in an emergency. (Think of the flight that crashed in the Hudson River...water rushing in, people all scrambling to exit.....if he was incapacitated, could others be ABLE to go by him, over him, etc...).
I do not know the circumstances of who exactly asked him to leave, whether that was the pilot or a flight attendant. As far as "already placing his items in the overhead", well thats typical, you do that Before you sit,.
What I understand was that he was unable to buy another seat (which is the policy they have). and that IF a flight has additional seats (after you purchased the extra) they would then REFUND you, NOT charge you for the second seat, which is nice).
In this situation, he was unable to fit, unable to purchase another seat and was asked to leave. There was no mention of a "scene" by either him or SW, thankfully.
YES, I understand his feelings of anger and humiliation. Yes, its unfortunate that he was unable to fit properly in his seat. I do not know if he asked for or brought or even required a seat belt extension. People carry weight differently, some to the front only, some all over etc etc. I think that if they had said" No sir, you're too fat for the one seat we have available, THAT would be discriminatory in my mind, but to allow him to board, and then try it and then not fit, well, thats just unfortunate for him.
The whole policy is "allegedly" based on safety and has worked for them, so honestly, I see no changes coming anytime soon.
As far as the media frenzy of "fat guy kicked off plane" goes, that is More humiliating IMHO, but he chose to throw it all out there, and was his choice. SW is getting bad press about their decision. They apologized and threw him $100. and he took it......so who knows what motives are in play here....pay him to shut him up???, taking $$ to "prove" they knew they did something wrong???
All I know is, if it were me that could not fit in the seat, I'd buy two to avoid the situation entirely in the first place.
I really do "feel" for him but think that the airline has rules (like all the other crazy rules out there) and if it IS for safety and comfort of the fellow passengers, they need to be adhered too. Have you ever been next to a person and "squished" that they were in your space for several hours "captive" on a plane, not comfortable, to say the least.
SO, in a nutshell, I think its unfortunate but understandable.
AIRLINES should make/have larger seats anyway, but thats not likely to happen!!

 

[snowbunny]

What if I want two seats to myself? Can I buy two? Will they give me that card thingy to save the second seat? Would they refund the price of the second seat if the flight was not full? And, if the answers are no, why not? And is that fair?

Crash, I think Lewis is correct that SW rules do not allow you to purchase a second seat for it to to sit empty, it has to be for the rest of your body, if you are a customer of size, or for a service dog or a guitar case for example.

Edit: SW does refund the cost of the second seat if the flight was not 100% full. So Smith had two seats at his disposal as a borderline customer of size, was getting reimbursed for the second seat probably a fair amount of the time (if there is even one open seat he doesn't have to pay for his second seat), but when he suddenly needed to not be a customer of size (i.e., to fly standby in the last seat available), he wanted to have it both ways. The mistake was letting him on the plane in the first place.

I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune if this happened to you.

For sure. I wouldn't have been publicly telling SW personnel who hurt my feelings to f*** off.

What if you have a beer at the bar before getting on your flight and the ground staff or FA's try to remove you claiming you are drunk because you smelled of alcohol. It's happened...I've seen it many times on many airlines...Southwest included.

We've all seen Airline too. Actually the episodes where drunk customers are denied boarding are among the most hilarious.

Want to know why I say this? Because one such person, who whiled away a delay in the bar, was not denied boarding by a highly trained US Airways specialist last year and proceeded to throw up on my Coach briefcase on the aircraft. I certainly enjoyed cleaning that off! But at least that poor customer had her chance to fly!