General Star Wars Discussion

[Moliphino]

I'm not sure that's a fair comment or quote of me. Willow is a "major Lucasfilm franchise" and I didn't say it was a "major franchise".

Admittedly, there isn't much in the production history for Lucasfilm so pickins' are slim, which supports your point. American Grafitti, Land Before Time, Strange Magic, Red Tails, Labyrinth, Howard the Duck and Radioland Murders are all examples of franchises outside of Indy and SW.

But, do you know who agrees with me that Willow is a major Lucasfilm franchise: Kathleen Kennedy. I didn't choose to produce a D+ show using the Willow characters or story that cost the company over $172M (reportedly) to produce. I repeat, Lucasfilm spent $172,000,000 on Willow. Kathleen Kennedy made the decision to green light the Willow TV show and spend over (reportedly) $172M on Willow's production. No one else made that decision, because she's the studio head. She's in charge. And she obviously felt that Willow was a franchise worth spending (reportedly) over $172M to make one season totaling 8-episodes. And wouldn't her decision to greenlight and okay a production budget of this magnitude for a franchise like Willow [that you described as "by no stretch of the imagination a 'major franchise'"] telling that she was a bad studio head?

All film, TV and art in general is subjective. If you liked Willow D+ show, I celebrate it. Frankly, I think Ron Howard's Willow is absolutely awesome! I love it.

However, Willow, the D+ show, wasn't successful by any metric whatsoever. It was such a disaster that TWDC banished it from D+ forever and took a tax write off. That's a terrible outcome. And I don't know what else to say to people, who disagree.

It's okay to celebrate Kathleen Kennedy as one of the greatest producers in the history of Hollywood. Put her movies up against any other producer in history, and she's as good as anyone. She was a terrible studio boss. Willow's D+ show is a prime example of how bad she ran the studio.

Does one movie even count as a franchise, though? Willow is a great movie, but I wouldn't have called it a franchise (at least not before the show came out).

 

[Obi-J Kenobi]

Also, The Land Beofre Time is not from Lucasfilm.

My mistake. George Lucas was a producer, not a Lucasfilm production.

A single movie does not a franchise make.

Labyrinth 2, a sequel, is confirmed with Robert Eggers writing and directing. This is a wise choice from Sony/TriStar.

Labyrinth 2 is a missed opportunity for Lucasfilm (and TWDC). TWDC and Lucasfilm have a long-history working with the Jim Henson Company. Lucasfilm could build off source material from a legendary creative person (Jim Henson) and put it into the hands of a different creative person (Eggers) that really understands building and storytelling in strange, foreign worlds (see The Witch and The Northman). Plus, Robert Eggers has never required a movie budget over $100M, which tells me he can do more with less. I wouldn't expect Labyrinth 2 to make $1B at the box office. But, I don't think $1B is the measuring stick for this project either.

https://deadline.com/2025/01/robert-eggers-labyrinth-sequel-sony-1236265010/

 

[Obi-J Kenobi]

Does one movie even count as a franchise, though? Willow is a great movie, but I wouldn't have called it a franchise (at least not before the show came out).

That's why I labeled Willow, Indy and SW as the three major Lucasfilm franchises, because those are the three stories that have multiple movies or shows within a series. My classification of these three properties as major Lucasfilm franchises drew an objection.

It's completely and totally fine with me if you want to only consider SW and Indy as franchises and Willow is nothing more than a single movie with a D+ show that isn't available to stream any longer. I really am okay with it. You all can label these things anyway you choose.

 

[leiaorgana]

Rumours are saying it could be a Carrie Beck & Dave Filoni duo taking over because they don’t think Dave can do it on his own and I’m inclined to believe that. I’m finding his “dump the toy box out” approach to things a bit tiresome myself tbh.

Say what you want about Kathleen but she’s been protecting mass layoffs at ILM so a lot of knowledgeable people could be on the chopping block to losing their jobs once she leaves, which will only make things worse.

 

[Kestryl]

… what counts as a legacy fan, anyways?

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Fan from the beginning, before Disney began destroying the brand.

 

[BrianL]

Aw man...I was born in '78. I wasn't there from the beginning, so I guess I'm not a fan. I never realized that. I guess I'll have to go be a Star Trek fan. *Googles Star Trek original airdate* Aw, dang!

 

[Kestryl]

I mean… I’ve been a fan since I started forming memories, so that’s before Disney, but after the beginning. So I guess I don’t count.

Now, my dad… I guess he counts. Something about taking turns with his friends standing in the theater to read out the scroll.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Aw man...I was born in '78. I wasn't there from the beginning, so I guess I'm not a fan. I never realized that. I guess I'll have to go be a Star Trek fan. *Googles Star Trek original airdate* Aw, dang!

You can count based on your age, but you cannot count based on your being ok with how Luke was handled by Disney. That one aspect excludes you I am afraid. /s

 

[irlandaise]

… what counts as a legacy fan, anyways?

Obviously, the ones who agree with Polymer. Anyone else isn't a "real" fan even if they saw SW on Day 1.

 

[nancipants]

Say what you want about Kathleen but she’s been protecting mass layoffs at ILM so a lot of knowledgeable people could be on the chopping block to losing their jobs once she leaves, which will only make things worse.

That would be really unfortunate. There's so much institutional knowledge at Lucasfilm and ILM (and Skywalker Sound).

 

[Obi-J Kenobi]

That would be really unfortunate. There's so much institutional knowledge at Lucasfilm and ILM (and Skywalker Sound).

100% agreed. It was sad when Kathleen Kennedy shut down the ILM office in Singapore in 2023 and 300 employees were let go. I believe that office was behind TCW animated series.

Unfortunately, layoffs are a likely outcome for the next studio head. Years of poor management decisions at Lucasfilm are a major driver. I realize that ILM does work for films from TWDC movie studios and non-TWDC studios (e.g. Universal (Wicked) and Paramount (Mission Impossible). Frankly, F1 looks absolutely fantastic. Major kudos to ILM and Joseph Kosinski alike.

The reality is that SW is not in a good way and that means TWDC, Lucasfilm and its children companies are hurting. I hope the folks that post here really take the following information and ask themselves some real honest questions about Lucasfilm and TWDC and its management moving forward (whether you are a SW legacy fan or not). Because, whoever takes over Lucasfilm is going to have to make some very tough business and creative decisions.

TWDC bought Lucasfilm for $4B (+/-) in 2012.

In the past 12+ years, Kathleen Kennedy has spent more than $3.7B (reportedly) in production budgets. Almost as much as TWDC paid for Lucasfilm. Reported live-action (non-animated) project budgets are:

$172M - Willow
$387M - Indy 5 (Total Box Office - $383M)

$645M - Andor 1/2
$135M - Skeleton C.
$230M - Acolyte
$100M - Ahsoka
$90M - Obi-Wan K.
$105M - Book of B.F.
$360M - Mando 1/2/3
$120M - Mando & Grogu (Release May 22, 2026)
$416M - Rise of Sky. (Total Box Office - $1.07B)
$300M - Last J. (Total Box Office - $1.33B)
$306M - Force A. (Total Box Office - $2.07B)
$250M - Rogue 1 (Total Box Office - $1.05B)
$275M - Solo (Total Box Office - $393M)

Several things need to be kept in mind here.

First, TWDC gets a share, not total, box office receipts. The percentage share can vary depending upon the studio, theater and country (i.e. China Box Office = less percentage for distributor).

Second, the marketing budgets are not included with the above-reported production budgets. Because of this, I am left to wonder whether or not the Rise of Skywalker (Episode 9) was profitable. I think it was profitable, but I'm not sure. If it was, maybe an earning of $1.25 for $1.00 spent? It is hard to believe a movie (Episode 9) could make over $1B at the box office and you don't see a significant financial profit. It does make sense why there is a 6 year pause between movie releases though.

Third, I do not even know where to start with the animated series budgets. I wouldn't be surprised if Bad Batch cost $3M per episode. No lie. Animated stuff can get way expensive. Just ask Pixar.

Lastly, on the D+ side of things, I suppose it is possible the SW D+ series have been a large driver for new subscribers. I find that hard to believe, but it is possible that recent subscribers (2 years more or less) are there to watch Ahsoka or Acolyte or Skelton Crew. I'm not sure I'm particularly good at comparing streaming viewership between D+ with Apple+, Max, Peacock or Netflix, etc.

At least under Kathleen Kennedy TWDC got a $2B Force Awakens box office result over a decade ago and Grogu. He's like Kirby, Bubbles, or Pikachu. People just buy it for the cuteness. So, there is something to sell. That's a positive legacy note for Kathleen Kennedy when she leaves.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Very well said. You won’t convince many on here to be objective about Lucasfilm though. They have dug their heels in and are unwilling to even consider that they are not right about how successful SW is.

 

[BrianL]

Very well said. You won’t convince many on here to be objective about Lucasfilm though. They have dug their heels in and are unwilling to even consider that they are not right about how successful SW is.

You know, I don't think that we are the ones who have dug in our heels. I can admit there have been issues - but I'm not going to exaggerate things to fit a certain narrative. I'm not going to villify, no, crucify, a single individual over all of the perceived failures and never give credits for the successes. I don't agree that certain...creative aspects are why we have seen some declines. Certain fans try to make it so simple, when in fact there are many complicated factors at play.

The fact is, Star Wars is still a healthy franchise that is very popular. It was never going to be "the most popular thing in the universe" forever. Sure, it was at one time, but now there are other big things too. The fanbase is aging, which is why they are trying to grab younger fans, which is, of course, exactly what you don't want them to do. I mean, how dare they, right? I can only imagine how things would be if they didn't even try to do that! Could some things have been a little better? Sure. Could some stuff have been handled differently? Of course. Would any of that have led to a major bump in success metrics? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[Obi-J Kenobi]

I'm not going to villify, no, crucify, a single individual over all of the perceived failures and never give credits for the successes.

Don't read any Bob Chapek threads or posts around the forums!

 

[mdmost]

I'd imagine if things were so awful and out of control budget wise under her leadership that Iger would've stepped in and cancelled upcoming projects. Instead there's a 2nd season of Andor that was agreed to. They gave Filoni a live action movie and a 2nd season of Ahsoka. James Mangold has a greenlit movie. The Rey movie is just waiting on the script to be done. Not every Star Wars project is going to be a hit. Not every MCU movie has been after Endgame. There will be good movies and bad movies. There will be great TV shows and not so great ones. They're going to keep making them and if they are good, the audience will show up.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

I'd imagine if things were so awful and out of control budget wise under her leadership that Iger would've stepped in and cancelled upcoming projects.

A lot of projects have been cancelled.

 

[BrianL]

A lot of projects have been cancelled.

Yeah, but not because of some general unhappiness with LucasFilm's, specifically Kennedy's, performance. Those projects never really got off the ground, which is one thing I will fault Kennedy for - announcing projects way too early with attached writers or directors that didn't have the time or wherewithal to get it together. That seemed to be a chronic problem.

 

[mdmost]

Yeah, but not because of some general unhappiness with LucasFilm's, specifically Kennedy's, performance. Those projects never really got off the ground, which is one thing I will fault Kennedy for - announcing projects way too early with attached writers or directors that didn't have the time or wherewithal to get it together. That seemed to be a chronic problem.

Yep. I will definitely fault her for that as well. Not tying people like Taika Waititi to a specific date for his movie which now seems like it's never coming out and maybe that's for the best. I think she's picked people who had way too much going on like Taika and Kevin Feige. Some of it going away is fine like the Game of Thrones guys going to Netflix instead. Rian Johnson's trilogy going away is okay. We got Knives Out movies instead. The Patty Jenkins one going away sucked because it looked like it would've been fun. Celebration is coming up in April so maybe we'll get more info on new projects and the status of existing projects. I think there's a reason Oscar Isaac is a feature guest this year as maybe he's joining the Rey movie.

 

[BrianL]

Yep. I will definitely fault her for that as well. Not tying people like Taika Waititi to a specific date for his movie which now seems like it's never coming out and maybe that's for the best. I think she's picked people who had way too much going on like Taika and Kevin Feige. Some of it going away is fine like the Game of Thrones guys going to Netflix instead. Rian Johnson's trilogy going away is okay. We got Knives Out movies instead. The Patty Jenkins one going away sucked because it looked like it would've been fun. Celebration is coming up in April so maybe we'll get more info on new projects and the status of existing projects. I think there's a reason Oscar Isaac is a feature guest this year as maybe he's joining the Rey movie.

Yeah, and that kind of thing happens all the time in Hollywood too - it just doesn't get announced. There are a ton fo deals that get shifted, changed, and cancelled due to various reasons, which is why they don't talk about stuff until it's more solid. It just gave fuel for criticism by people who want only to criticize. That could have been easily avoided.

I'd have loved to see Taika's moie - I love him! While I loved the idea of a Rogue Squadron movie, I am not sure Jenkins was best choice for it.