FYI point value according to those who rent......

[AnnK]

Or members could just realize that renting a premium resort for the price of a "value" resort is ridiculous.
I am not against members renting if that is their prerogative. I just feel that they should rent closer to the true rental price. Why GIVE to these people what they themselves cannot buy?
Supply and demand ? It's already there! Have you looked at the rental board? There is a HUGE demand for points. One post goes up and within a very short time there at 3-7 replies, all looking to rent those points. That would be a prime example of Demand.( and maybe a low supply.) If the members asked higher prices I have NO DOUBT that they would get it. You say you wouldn't pay it, but I am confident that many other's would and those who do not choose to pay the higher price per point can always stay at the All-Star.
BTW I understand your interest in this, you are a renter, not an owner.

 

[Peterd]

Bigcat, Like I said, I was mistaken, I thought DVC was an exclusive club, I was wrong. I thought it was a club, you paid your dues, and you got premium rooms with certain benefits. You traded points with other members who were short one year etc... Sort of like a beach club or Golf club. I was wrong. You don't have to pay the dues, you get the benefits, and you can get the rooms cheaper if you use these boards. No hard feelings.

 

[Doctor P]

I would gently and respectfully suggest that DVC is built on formal and informal respect for the joint rights, privileges, and responsibilities. I am deeply bothered by any statement that members have no responsibilities with respect to the ability of other members to enjoy their membership or the amenities of DVC. DVC, at least in part, is built on condominium declarations that formalize one's rights and responsibilities towards other members. Even as the owner of a single family home, you have responsibilities towards your neighbors. Indeed, your ability to rent your property is not absolute and is heavily regulated in many jurisdictions even with respect to single family homes. I am not talking about imposing such restrictions here, but rather the general notion that DVC is built on at least some sensitivity to other people (at some level)!

 

[diaman]

I agree with Stephen:
QUOTE:
SHARE, SELL, RENT YOUR POINTS TO YOUR DVC BROTHERS AND SISTERS! That's right. Let's try and restrict our sale of points to other DVC members. At least at the $10 rate. Can we establish another rate for non-members when we have no other choice but to sell to them?

We should ALL sell our points to non-DVC members $20/point, which is still less expensive if they puchased the room with cash. DVC members can purchase them for $10/point. Non-DVC members can not trick you by saying they are DVC members since they will have to give their membership number to MS when making the reservation. If we use this pricing plan, some of us can make some money and this could go to helping with the cost of ownership. Again, that's just my opinion

 

[disneygals]

Let's see if I can do this without stepping on toes...I'm a DVC wannabe, dh is not, so I don't own.

People who can afford to pay premium nightly charges direct to Disney will not be budget searching and available to rent your pts at $20.

If I know enough about DVC, I will not pay Disney or you $6000-$7500 (approx 300 pts for OKW, 350 for VWL)for a week's stay..I might as well buy.

There are beautiful 2 br timeshares (Vistana, which I own) that you can rent for $750 a week. If I'm truly bargain hunting, I'd choose that. But I MAY be able to justify paying you $10 a pt for the luxury of staying onsite at DVC.

If the rental price goes up, I believe it would cause more people to rent. If I buy a 200 pt pkg at today's prices, it would cost me about $1000 a year for the next 40. Wow, I could make $3000 a yr just by renting!!

Just my opinion and based on family of five...we would NEVER go only from Sun-Thurs nor cram an extra kid into a studio

 

[Dean]

Actually, I was partly kidding about the price increase. The truth is that $10 pp was the market price when you could buy OKW, BW, VB and HH at $62 pp. A lot has happened since then. The price is now $72 pp and there is no longer the ability to buy OKW or BW. Sure the free tickets went away also for some members. I do feel that the time is right for an increase in the basic asking price for rentals, time will tell what will happen.

I suspect that formally conspiring to raise points is technically illegal.

Dean

 

[Tinker Bell]

Maybe I am missing something. I recall a recent thread where a poster was talking about the high rates that points were trading for on Ebay. He was roundly condemned for trying to drive up the rental prices that other members charge so that he could increase the profitability of his own rental activities.

This thread (with some of the same posters) seems to be taking to opposite view. DVC members are hurt by low rental rates? I agree with disneygals.

High rental rates will increase the number of people that purchase DVC memberships purely for a profit motive. I think that profit maximizers are a greater threat to DVC than any impact from non-members buying points at low prices.

Tinker

 

[fkj2]

I think part of the problem on the Rent/Trade board is that posters indicate what (size of accommodation) and where and when they want to rent. It's almost as though the DVC members are part of central reservations and somebody is supposed to supply the points at what dollar amount the potential renter wants to pay, in this case the $10/point. Nobody has to rent at that price and if the member does want more $$$ per point, the member can ask for it. If the renter is willing to pay it, fine, if not, that's fine also.

And Dean, I didn't have the impression that anyone actually suggested that collusion should occur; the word, with all its inflammatory reactions of suggesting that those willing to lease for more $$$ are gouging possible renters, was a leap from one post to the next.

 

[Bigcat]

The best price is where supply equals demand. We obviously have not reached the point where we are charging too much. As I stated before, Disney is charging much more per night than we are and they are the best estimators of market value in the world. So we can charge anywhere up to near where Disney charges and still be economically feasible.

On another point, I don't think that more people will buy DVC memberships simply for profit, it doesn't make sense. For example, buying 150pts now costs $10,800. If you rent all those points each year at $10/pt you take in $1500. Then you have to take off dues of approx. $600/yr leaving you a net income of $900. Take $900 and divide by $10,800 and you come up with a return of only 8.33%...not what I am looking for in investment returns! And that is not counting any of the other intangible renting expenses like time, phone calls, postage, etc.

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

 

[Tinker Bell]

Hey Bigcat. I am glad to hear you have some sweet investment opportunities. 8.33% with virtually no risk seems pretty attractive to me about now.

You get to $20/pt and people running a rental business will have it made in the shade

 

[TrudyZ]

I have hesitated to respond to this post. But since I feel that renters are starting to be stereotyped in a not-so-favorable light; let's see here if I too can respond without stepping too hard on too many toes.

I am new to the DVC concept and I am recent first time renter. In response to AnnK, you are not "giving me something I cannot buy". On the contrary, I am taking this opportunity to rent to "test drive" the DVC before I plunk my money down (sorry Ann, but it will be cash--and much more than the 150 point mimimum--and on-site where I will be spending most of my time per advice from Rich) for a membership. Two of your fellow DVCers have been gracious enough to rent me points so that I can experience DVC and investigate my various options twice in the next few months. I am sure that ther are many others that have rented for the same intentions--a trial run at the DVC--and ultimately ended up buying.

And no, to put your minds at ease, I did not avoid weekends renting in either trip, as so often is attributed to renters.

Secondly, I would like to address Diaman who feels that points should be rented for $20 per point to non-members. (and Diaman, I really am appalled that feel that a renter would try and "trick" you--with that line of thought I would be concerned renting from you). You are free to charge what you want--and what the market will bear. But please remember that there are several instances during the year that the $20 per point figure makes your price even higher than Disney. If you don't believe me, do the math. For example, for a trip in the month of July (and there are other times this occurs that just July), if I would rent an OKW studio for 7 nights at $20 per point, the price would be $2180. Disney's rack rate is $244 + 11% tax during that time (that doesn't account for a DC or AAA discount). Even with tax and no discount that would be $1895. I am sure that other renters would also be able to do the math. And, if a renter is truly a bargain hunter, following the resort board over the last few weeks would have snagged them upsells at the AKL for $159 to $179, AP rate fo $189 night at the Polynesian, etc. These are all Deluxe resorts.

And, don't forget, there is no risk dealing with Disney. The renter is at risk with no refund and no flexibity when renting points. This all plays into the market value of points.

And I do agree, if the price were set at $20 per point and obtainable, I would be even more likely to buy figuring that if I didn't use it I could at least get my money out of it renting.

So, in response to the original thread of price, as Owners, you have the right to charge what the market will bear. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with the slant this thread is taking on renters.

Gee, I hope if I decide to buy, that tarnish on me from my recent time as a renter won't come off in the DVC pool!

 

[McGrane]

I am with those who say RENT ONLY TO DVC BROTHERS AND SISTERS. I have rented my points out two times and ONLY dealt with DVC members. It is not as easy as it seems to rent points, and often one is bombarded with people who don't even know what points are, who don't understand cancellation policies, who are confused as to unit sizes, etc. They communicate back and forth numerous times, still trying to digest the terminology and then call a month later thinking points will still be available. Meaning no rudeness, I want to deal with someone who speaks DVC language for a smooth transaction. For that, I'm willing to sell for less and have done so for points between $7-$9 depending on expiration date.

I really think that we DVC owners owe each other the respect, as co-owners, to try to work with each other first before going out to non-owners. If you want to charge more than me, that's fine, just try to stay with our DVClub.

And please no more whining about not being able to afford DVC and how tough it is being a single mom. I'm a single dad, and it is tough for me too. If we didn't have DVC, I am quite sure my children would be just as happy staying at All Stars at $49/night with the going sale. I wouldn't have to buy points to stay in a deluxe resort, which even with discount of buying from a member would be quite higher than AllStars. That choice is undoubtedly for the comfort of the parent,not the child, so let's be realistic.

[This message was edited by McGrane on 03-13-01 at 10:28 PM.]

 

[katefromny]

As a renter(next year) and a probable future DVC member (Beach Club Villas), I am thrilled with the opportunity to "test drive" before we buy. I am renting some points for $10 per/and some for $11 per point. Truth be told, I probably would have paid more if pressed.
I understand the argument from the member's side--especially when you consider that the renters have no stake in the resort or future of the program, other than their immediate need of lodging (and cheap!) I suppose there are those renters who will try to cram 8 people into a studio or 10 people into a one bedroom. I suppose there are those renters who will be loud, rude,disrespectful of the others around them-- and take more towels than they're supposed to. I gotta believe there are also DVC members who will do the same thing. This thread about raising the per point cost perplexes me. If rentals were to go for $15 per point, would that somehow soften the blow when the renter is irresponsible or manages to get a standard view room at the 11 month window?

As a future DVC'er, I think it is your responsibility to each other as members to ensure ( as much as possible) that your renters OR friends/family members who stay on your points-- understand the rules of the game, and are grown up enough to abide by them. That being said, I'm not exactly sure how you go about doing this. LOL

I think renting points is okay (of course I'm biased! ) And if you wanna charge $20 per point, go for it..to each his own I say. And you can take that two cents straight to the bank. LOL !

 

[PamOKW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>High rental rates will increase the number of people that purchase DVC memberships purely for a profit motive. I think that profit maximizers are a greater threat to DVC than any impact from non-members buying points at low prices. [/quote]

This is the reason why I think DVC needs to step in and look at what is going on with rentals. Maybe it's a problem, maybe it's not.

For those who are renting out points there is a balance. If you need cash for your points you have to figure out what the market will bear. Maybe $10 is right, maybe it's more or maybe it's less. Really, I don't care what it is. I also see where if it is not a rock-bottom bargain people will stay at other Disney resorts or at DVC directly through Disney.

The question raised at the start of this thread is, Why give strangers bargain vacations? There are 1,001 ways to use your points. Unless you are in an emergency situation, with a little planning you can take yourself on all kinds of trips and adventures. If you can't travel this year, I'm sure someone close to you would take an opportunity and would be willing to work out a price equal or maybe even better than what you can rent for. Or maybe there's someone close to you you'd like to do something nice for. Renting points seems to be selling yourself short. DVC is your vacation plan....use it for that!

As to the obligation to provide rentals for the public at large....there is none. If you'd like to try DVC there's no reason you can't arrange it through Disney.

 

[katefromny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As to the obligation to provide rentals for the public at large....there is none. If you'd like to try DVC there's no reason you can't arrange it through Disney [/quote]

PamOKW, have you ever tried to get cash ressies for a 2 bedroom BWV at 4 months out?

 

[PamOKW]

Sorry Kate, getting a 2 bedroom at BWV at 4 months for cash is no harder than it is for a DVC member to do the same for their points. That can also be part of your experience in what DVC is like. In fact, sometimes there are cash reservations but not rooms available for points. You take the regular Disney cash reservation and a member who calls can get what they paid for as well.

I just mean that you can get a DVC resort to try it out. How difficult or easy it is may be a problem but it is not the DVC members' obligation to provide easy ways for non-DVC members to try the resort.

[This message was edited by PamOKW on 03-14-01 at 08:51 AM.]

 

[Doctor P]

That is precisely the reason many on these boards would argue that renting is not appropriate! If you are talking about BWV, there is simply no incentive for Disney nor for DVC members to make accomodation for nonmembers to "try it out." If you are talking about a resort that is available other than through resale, there may be a point.

 

[katefromny]

if we are considering a DVC purchase (namely BCV) what better place to experience the similar ambience, and atmosphere--then at BWV? Because for us, if we buy, it will be onsite. Renting points gives us the opportunity to try both of the resorts we are looking at: WLV and BCV--granted, we aren't actually staying at BCV, though someone with questionable character did contact me to "rent me points" for that particular resort! LOL!
As an experiment, I tried (in vain) to make cash ressies at 11 months out for BWV, at 7 months, and at 4. You DVC'ers must agree that even at the 7 month window things can be tight, depending on the time of year, the room and the resort. DVC'ers have a leg up on the rest of the world, atleast in the matter of making reservations at their home or other DVC resort. And that is as it should be. I don't even have the option (according to WDTC) until 4 months out.

So, while you are absolutely under no obligation to rent out your points to schmucks like me, those DVC'ers who DO want or need to rent out points are a-okay in my book, especially considering the many risks involved to both renter and rentee.

As long as there is a market that will bear it, I think renting is here to stay. I don't know that pouring money into renting is in our long term future, but for some it is a way to experience a deluxe resort and amenities without paying deluxe prices. Unless Disney expressely forbides this practice, I really don't see what you can do about it. Hope I didn't step on too many toes!

 

[AnnK]

In response to AnnK, you are not "giving me something I cannot buy".

TrudyZ,
I was not talking about the renter, I was talking about DVC owners, they can not "buy" a room for 80.00 a night. Why should they sell to someone else for such a cheap rate? In fact if it were not for these boards, no one could, even you, could not get a room at BWV,OKW or VWL for such a low price..
If someone wants to "test drive" a DVC resort they can always rent from Disney. We rented from Disney before we bought, that opportunity is always there for those who would not want to pay a DVC member a price closer to the true value of the product.

"sorry Ann, but it will be cash--and much more than the 150 point mimimum--and on-site where I will be spending most of my time per advice from Rich) for a membership."

I hardly care how many points you or any other member owns. I don't care if you buy with cash or finance, none of this has anything to do with encouraging DVC members to rent their points/rooms for a price that is higher than the All-Star. I have never disclosed the amount I own because to me that's like revealing your salary, personal and not something I am about to share. I refuse to get into a "who has more points" discussion with someone who has not even purchased a single point. (I would not debate it after your purchase either as it does not matter to me how many points someone owns.) Some members think the drop to 150 points was a bad decision, I am not one of them as I feel people should purchase what they need and are comfortable with. That of course would be an entirely different topic.
There are bargains to be found. The prices you quote, does that include the 11% tax? I believe it would add about another $17.00 to $19.00 to the price of the room PER NIGHT.
There are risks to both the DVC member and the renter.
Bigcat has already said that we could charge anywhere NEAR Disney prices and it would still be economically feasible, he is correct. Who said it has to be per point? Disney charges per room. DVC members could do that too.
I wonder IF you purchased if you would still have the same opinion of the low price as you do now.
Tinkerbell, no one is keeping you from purchasing if you feel the profits from renting are that great. I personally have not had to rent my points, but if I did I would get much closer to the per room night that Disney asks, and forget charging per point. I also don't see that many people would purchase purely with the intent to sell, the profit is not that great compared with other investment opportunities.
If someone is happy owning at Vistana, that's great. I own another timeshare in Aruba, but it doesn't compare to DVC and I could not rent it for anywhere near the price I could rent my BW or OKW rooms for. There are many timeshares in the Orlando area and I am sure many of those owners are happy with their purchase, but staying on Disney property has always cost more. Even All- Star gets more for a room than some beautiful hotels/resorts that have more amenities, but are located off property.
I am not "bashing" renters. The point of the post is that renting a DVC property for the price of All-Star is too cheap. I understand renters not wanting the price to increase, but I think it's time for DVC owners to realize the true value of the room and price accordingly.

[This message was edited by AnnK on 03-14-01 at 11:12 AM.]

 

[PamOKW]

I am curious where renters get in touch with DVC members. Is Pete's Board and E-Bay the primary resources or are there other boards that are popular for this as well?