FYI: Disney made some updates to their rules

[Mrsjvb]

Wow, that's a little snarky. Why should a disabled parent have to hire someone to help with a child? That's one if the basic tenants if the ADA is that people with a disability have the same rights as someone without.

I wish I had your money to hire some one for my friend. Do you have any idea what a nanny/personal assistant costa?

I have a friend with severe RA among other things who is only 30 who routinely uses the scooters at Walmart and other places with excessive walking. She also has a 3 yr old who often will ride with her. Her husband works away from home a lot. They don't have the money to hire a nanny nor should they have to

I was diagnosed at 5, in a wheelchair full time until I was 12. I have had RA for over 40 years. I too use chair for anything more strenuous than groceries( due to the severity of mine an ECV is NOT an option) just because you routinely violate safety protocols at home DOES NOT MEAN that Disney will be just as easy to get away with it. pretty sure your local grocery store does NOT have people crowding the aisles 6 wide all rushing to get to the deli department at once.

I do not care how you get around at home and how much you swear you re teaching your kids to do it properly.. Home is NOT WALT DISNEY WORLD. between the crowds, the large crowds trying to stay together and the idiots who have never even SEEN an ECV before that day and yet are using one haphazardly, IT IS NOT SAFE TO ALLOW SMALL CHILDREN IN YOUR LAP ON N ECV IN THE PARKS

I just got back Monday from a ten day stay. and yes there were stupid people letting their little darling grandchild sit in their lap. and at least one slipped off and fell when the ECV had to stop suddenly due to crowds.

totally different environment.

period,

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I was diagnosed at 5, in a wheelchair full time until I was 12. I have had RA for over 40 years. I too use chair for anything more strenuous than groceries( due to the severity of mine an ECV is NOT an option) just because you routinely violate safety protocols at home DOES NOT MEAN that Disney will be just as easy to get away with it. pretty sure your local grocery store does NOT have people crowding the aisles 6 wide all rushing to get to the deli department at once. I do not care how you get around at home and how much you swear you re teaching your kids to do it properly.. Home is NOT WALT DISNEY WORLD. between the crowds, the large crowds trying to stay together and the idiots who have never even SEEN an ECV before that day and yet are using one haphazardly, IT IS NOT SAFE TO ALLOW SMALL CHILDREN IN YOUR LAP ON N ECV IN THE PARKS I just got back Monday from a ten day stay. and yes there were stupid people letting their little darling grandchild sit in their lap. and at least one slipped off and fell when the ECV had to stop suddenly due to crowds. totally different environment. period,

Exactly. Well said.

Last month I saw a person in an ECV get cut off by a pedestrian after fireworks and the person almost tipped the ECV when they swerved. Imagine if a child had been on their lap.

 

[bidnow5]

I don't get how people don't get it in my opinion safety trumps disability. Not sure how anyone could take a chance of getting a child seriously hurt. My opinion you hire someone or get a friend to go or you don't go period

 

[OurBigTrip]

ETA: To get back to Bill's original point, to deny a paraplegic the ability to carry a child they way they are accustomed to could potentially be an ADA violation. I'd say letting one of my kids ride on my lap, in our situation, would fall under "reasonable accommodation".

Safety overrides reasonable accommodation, per the ADA itself.

 

[aaarcher86]

Safety overrides reasonable accommodation, per the ADA itself.

Absolutely correct.

 

[SMD]

Exactly. Well said.

Last month I saw a person in an ECV get cut off by a pedestrian after fireworks and the person almost tipped the ECV when they swerved. Imagine if a child had been on their lap.

I was bumped by an ECV this summer during fireworks at DL. They create a path between the hub and the castle to cross from Tomorrowland to Frontierland. This woman was driving with one hand and holding a baby with the other when the baby grabbed the steering column and she veered into me. No apology or anything, she just took the hand off and sped right past me. I walked behind her after that, and I saw the baby do it again before she had even passed the castle. She's lucky the ECV didn't tumble off the curb when it veer sharply to the side.

Maybe if it happens again I'll just start shouting and pointing until security shows up.

 

[RubySue]

Safety overrides reasonable accommodation, per the ADA itself.

ITA. What a person does at home is their own business. What a person does on Disney's property is also Disney's business. I'm sure they make these rules after considering many factors, such as insurance, liability, and past injury incidents.

Disney can't pick and choose who can have their kids ride with them and who can't. How does a CM know who is responsible and careful and who isn't? And in the parks, you can be very careful using a WC/ECV, but you can't control what other people will do. I read a post here recently where a woman and her ECV were physically pushed off of a path and down into a huge plant by a large group of people shoving past her. It was lucky she wasn't hurt but the ECV and the plants were damaged. If she had had a child on her lap, the child probably would have been hurt.

 

[bumbershoot]

...IT IS NOT SAFE TO ALLOW SMALL CHILDREN IN YOUR LAP ON N ECV IN THE PARKS

But people here aren't talking about ECVs, they are talking about wheelchairs, and wheelchairs that they routinely use.

Hate to make an assumption, but the one I'm making is that these rules are in general. I assume that they still have the contract for rental ECVs (and perhaps wheelchairs) that prohibits the renters from having people on their laps. If you rent offsite you might have a contract that says the same. This mention in the rules is about people who have their *own* wheeled conveyances; the potential newbies to using the rentals are going to be governed by contracts that they actually sign.

...if a responsible parent who is a long-time wheelchair uses says they can do it then I'm certainly not going to judge. I'm sure that people with various handicaps do plenty of things that "normal" people might think are dangerous, but when it's your life, things are quite a bit different. Heck, I wouldn't walk down a city street blindfolded, but legally blind people do it every single day.

And I bet that's why it says "should". This is about conveyances that people brought with them, that they use all the time. Not a first-timer thing.

If they say "should" they mean "should". And if they say "should" they do NOT mean "must". It's a suggestion, not a rule.

 

[charmed59]

Safety overrides reasonable accommodation, per the ADA itself.

Safety is a grey area, not black and white. If safety truly trumps all, those who might have a breakdown while standing in line, causing harm to themselves and others would not be issued DAS cards, but would be banned from the park. But instead they make the reasonable accommodation of trying to shorten the time in line. Will it stave off all melt downs in line? No. But it certainly cuts them down to a negligible amount.

Now lets look at children on the laps of parent who, given their life's challenges, have raised those children on their laps. They navigate life like this everyday. Will all of these parents be absolutely accident free in the parks, probably not. But again, the number of accidents this particular (small) population would have in the parks that would endanger others is again, a negligible amount.

Reasonable is a social construct. A good barometer of what is a reasonable accommodation would be to take the public's pulse. Let's take an example of a family with disabilities. That family could have mobility challenged parents or it could be a family with a member whose melt downs can be destructive. Let's say a story about this family being denied access to DW was splashed across USAtoday. What do you think the general public would think? I think it would be a huge black eye for Disney.

Note, I believe people who rent scooters and wheel chairs must abide by their rental contracts. But in the example above, these people have their own conveyances. There is no rental contract. I believe this is a very small percentage of those who people see in the parks on ECVs.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

I don't get how people don't get it in my opinion safety trumps disability. Not sure how anyone could take a chance of getting a child seriously hurt. My opinion you hire someone or get a friend to go or you don't go period

Or one goes for a safe "solo" way. For both wheelchairs (manual and power) and ecv there are child seats available to transport kids safe and with both hands free to drive. As a typical biking nation, were very used to transporting 1, 2 or 3 kids on our own bike as an adult in a safe way using these seats. Most times takes no or very little changing te use these general public bike seats on mobility aids. They are very easy tot use, can be adapted to needs, cheap etc. We find it so important its norm single parents will getoond their mobility aids covered and supplied with the seats needed to perform their parental tasks.

Very common sight to see in our daily life, the norm for this group of parents te transport their kids, whether solo or with other adults along. Also the only way they are allowed to for insurance purposes. Rightfully so, after all even the best driver can nog control the actions of others around and always runs the risk of accident, emergency breaking etc. Ik personally dont care of someone cares to risk harming themselves, but when kids are involved and/or other traffic participants safety trumps, period.

Heck, Ik see my nephews few in and between. Chair days are behind me unfortunately, but for only a couple of tens of euros I would not have hesitated one second andere bought my own for taking them out myself. Well soon be going on my wish trip. In theory a 4 and 1 year old could easily sit on the guerney Ill be using to get around. No way though. No child, no matter how well a listener never ever does something unexpected. Which equals possible risk for them or general public. Who we also cant control. It takes only one moment of a proper bumping into, being one second too late in response and boom. Nephew on a concreat floor. No thank you, safety trumps. Especially in big uncontrolable crowds, more so when that crowd is made up of many kids including very very young ones.

 

[ttintagel]

How does a CM know who is responsible and careful and who isn't?

Well, that's probably why they chose the wording, "should." That way, if they spot someone with a kid on their lap but it look like everything's going OK, they have the leeway to just watch and then decide it's fine and move on. But they've also got a buttonhole if they see someone else like the woman SMD saw with the baby who kept grabbing the wheel and steering the ECV off course, and need to stop her from endangering herself and others.

 

[MG3G]

Interesting thread. I also asked a similar question about children and lap riding a while ago.

In general I find that this group can be judgmental at times. Some have a blanket attitude that if you can't "do Disney" in a certain expected way then you should either 1) hire someone to help you or 2) wait and go another time. What gets lost is that not all of us HAVE more time, or have the means to pay for a luxury vacation for a care aid. There are people like me who are cashing in their savings to take ONE trip with their kids. People have talked about how they need an ECV for really long days but can do everyday errands without it, I don't see in any way how that is the same as a person who requires a chair full time. A full timer can't just pop down to the store and walk. I'm not even in a chair full time yet and I wouldn't even PRESUME to say that I can judge what someone who is in one can or can not do. I just know what I can do, and my measuring stick shouldn't be used to judge someone else's disability.

I have no problem at all following the rules of a private facility (Disney) or a rental contract if I signed one (which I don't since I own my scooter). BUT Disney hasn't stated without a doubt that lap riding is not allowed AND they can't.

You can NOT argue that it is always safer for a child to walk - what about a 18 month old crossing a busy street? What about a 4 year old in a MASSIVE crowd who risks being separated and or being run over by their own parent while trying to hang on to the side of a scooter. In some instances the SAFEST option is to put an infant or small child on your lap. In some instances there is NO other option. If you are alone with your non-walking infant and use a chair full time, are you just never supposed to pick them up?

In all honesty I need a golf cart to go to Disney with my young kids - lol. BUT that isn't a safe option. I could also pull a bike trailer behind my scooter, but Disney doesn't allow that either and that is within their rights. But if I need to pick up my two year old to keep her from harm I have the right to be able to do that.

 

[aaarcher86]

Interesting thread. I also asked a similar question about children and lap riding a while ago. In general I find that this group can be judgmental at times. Some have a blanket attitude that if you can't "do Disney" in a certain expected way then you should either 1) hire someone to help you or 2) wait and go another time. What gets lost is that not all of us HAVE more time, or have the means to pay for a luxury vacation for a care aid. There are people like me who are cashing in their savings to take ONE trip with their kids. People have talked about how they need an ECV for really long days but can do everyday errands without it, I don't see in any way how that is the same as a person who requires a chair full time. A full timer can't just pop down to the store and walk. I'm not even in a chair full time yet and I wouldn't even PRESUME to say that I can judge what someone who is in one can or can not do. I just know what I can do, and my measuring stick shouldn't be used to judge someone else's disability. I have no problem at all following the rules of a private facility (Disney) or a rental contract if I signed one (which I don't since I own my scooter). BUT Disney hasn't stated without a doubt that lap riding is not allowed AND they can't. You can NOT argue that it is always safer for a child to walk - what about a 18 month old crossing a busy street? What about a 4 year old in a MASSIVE crowd who risks being separated and or being run over by their own parent while trying to hang on to the side of a scooter. In some instances the SAFEST option is to put an infant or small child on your lap. In some instances there is NO other option. If you are alone with your non-walking infant and use a chair full time, are you just never supposed to pick them up? In all honesty I need a golf cart to go to Disney with my young kids - lol. BUT that isn't a safe option. I could also pull a bike trailer behind my scooter, but Disney doesn't allow that either and that is within their rights. But if I need to pick up my two year old to keep her from harm I have the right to be able to do that.

If 'being safer' for you and yours makes it more dangerous for me and mine, who wins?

While I personally think people are splitting hairs on the wording and should invoke a bit of common sense, if Disney asked you to remove your child from your lap they'd be within their right whether it is your vehicle or not. They are allowed to put limitations on devices allowed into the park - speed limits for scooters, etc if they choose.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I have no problem at all following the rules of a private facility (Disney) or a rental contract if I signed one (which I don't since I own my scooter). BUT Disney hasn't stated without a doubt that lap riding is not allowed AND they can't.

I'm betting that you're wrong on saying they can't prevent you from having a child on your lap while on an ECV. They are absolutely permitted to prevent what *they deem* dangerous behavior, because if you, your child or someone else is injured, they could very well be considered liable.

 

[MG3G]

I'm betting that you're wrong on saying they can't prevent you from having a child on your lap while on an ECV. They are absolutely permitted to prevent what *they deem* dangerous behavior, because if you, your child or someone else is injured, they could very well be considered liable.

Yes but they haven't - I'm sure they "could" make any rule they want. They "could" say we all need to wear green and walk backwards but they won't. IF they say you absolutely can not have a toddler or infant on your lap then I will respect that they are a private property and have rules for a reason - BUT they haven't and I HIGHLY doubt they will make that blanket statement as I don't know how they can and still comply with ADA.

 

[aaarcher86]

Yes but they haven't - I'm sure they "could" make any rule they want. They "could" say we all need to wear green and walk backwards but they won't. IF they say you absolutely can not have a toddler or infant on your lap then I will respect that they are a private property and have rules for a reason - BUT they haven't and I HIGHLY doubt they will make that blanket statement as I don't know how they can and still comply with ADA.

ADA doesn't have anything to do with a child sitting on your lap in a wheelchair, so I'm not sure how you think it would be a violation.

 

[MG3G]

If 'being safer' for you and yours makes it more dangerous for me and mine, who wins?

While I personally think people are splitting hairs on the wording and should invoke a bit of common sense, if Disney asked you to remove your child from your lap they'd be within their right whether it is your vehicle or not. They are allowed to put limitations on devices allowed into the park - speed limits for scooters, etc if they choose.

Well of course I win. (This is sad with a smile I promise, I'm not picking a fight )

I "think" since you have the option of leaving the area, moving over, being aware of who is around you and "hypothetical" "I" (I being not really me but a general person who uses a chair full time and has an infant and no other options AND Disney doesn't specifically prohibit it) THAT person would "win" this argument. I "believe" and I could be wrong, that under ADA they wouldn't be able to prohibit someone from carrying their little one IF they could prove they had a valid need and no other way to manage. Whereas their "need" may be indisputable, your feeling of your personal safety being compromised is hypothetical and not guaranteed that you will be bumped into. I said MAY BE indisputable because it depends on the situation. If it's a grandma who rented a ECV for the day and there is a parent pushing an empty stroller cause riding with grandma is more "fun" - then no, those people don't NEED that accommodation. Now say we have a mom and dad - dad is in a chair full time and they have an infant and twins with autism - lol. (I have a child with autism that is why I pulled that disability.) SAY the twins need to go to the bathroom and require each holding one hand and therefore daddy in the wheelchair has to hold the infant. There is a REAL need there. That is why I think Disney said "should" and not "must" - I can not imagine their lawyers didn't REALLY think about the wording and I am sure it is so they can accommodate certain situations as needed.


ETA - because I wonder if this has happened too... have you seen the huge two seat scooters? I could see another situation where two people with mobility issues have one of these and only one is capable of driving. Like my grandparents had a ECV each, what if a family owned a huge one? Could Disney make them not use it? IDK? OR they even make after market double seats for single scooters now which is a long seat - if you had one installed would that be prohibited from the park? I just find this is an interesting topic. I can absolutely guarantee, there will be times during our trip where I will be alone with our little kids and won't be able to push a stroller and drive an ECV at the same time. More then likely we will just chill out somewhere but I do wonder HOW Disney manages families like ours. I know how wal-mart does, and the camp ground and our city....

 

[aaarcher86]

Well of course I win. (This is sad with a smile I promise, I'm not picking a fight )

I "think" since you have the option of leaving the area, moving over, being aware of who is around you and "hypothetical" "I" (I being not really me but a general person who uses a chair full time and has an infant and no other options AND Disney doesn't specifically prohibit it) THAT person would "win" this argument. I "believe" and I could be wrong, that under ADA they wouldn't be able to prohibit someone from carrying their little one IF they could prove they had a valid need and no other way to manage. Whereas their "need" may be indisputable, your feeling of your personal safety being compromised is hypothetical and not guaranteed that you will be bumped into. I said MAY BE indisputable because it depends on the situation. If it's a grandma who rented a ECV for the day and there is a parent pushing an empty stroller cause riding with grandma is more "fun" - then no, those people don't NEED that accommodation. Now say we have a mom and dad - dad is in a chair full time and they have an infant and twins with autism - lol. (I have a child with autism that is why I pulled that disability.) SAY the twins need to go to the bathroom and require each holding one hand and therefore daddy in the wheelchair has to hold the infant. There is a REAL need there. That is why I think Disney said "should" and not "must" - I can not imagine their lawyers didn't REALLY think about the wording and I am sure it is so they can accommodate certain situations as needed.

No. The ADA doesn't have anything to do with your parenting needs. It has to do with YOUR needs to access something, not your child's needs or how you choose to parent.

We could probably argue both points all day, and no one is going to budge - but rules are put into place every day to avoid a safety issue, and they aren't based on individuals. It doesn't matter the circumstances. But if push came to shove and we did end up in a safety situation, your 'need' to put 2 people on a 1 person piece of equipment would not override anything. Regardless of your reasoning. Because at the end of the day, that's exactly what you're doing.

I'm sure there aren't many CMs that would say anything after the amount of double and triple teenage drivers I saw on EVCs in the park this past trip, but it doesn't mean they can't or won't. And eventually, something will happen to someone and they'll have to put more rules and crap into place to protect us from ourselves I'm sure.

 

[MG3G]

No. The ADA doesn't have anything to do with your parenting needs. It has to do with YOUR needs to access something, not your child's needs or how you choose to parent.

We could probably argue both points all day, and no one is going to budge - but rules are put into place every day to avoid a safety issue, and they aren't based on individuals. It doesn't matter the circumstances. But if push came to shove and we did end up in a safety situation, your 'need' to put 2 people on a 1 person piece of equipment would not override anything. Regardless of your reasoning. Because at the end of the day, that's exactly what you're doing.

I'm sure there aren't many CMs that would say anything after the amount of double and triple teenage drivers I saw on EVCs in the park this past trip, but it doesn't mean they can't or won't. And eventually, something will happen to someone and they'll have to put more rules and crap into place to protect us from ourselves I'm sure.

Sorry I'm not "arguing" and I'm sorry if you feel like we are! I was just learning more and thinking in type....

I would LOVE to hear from a few of the people who posted up thread that ARE in chairs full time cause for me, right now anyway, I'm just guessing what my life is going to be like. Hopefully I won't be in a chair full time ever, or at least not until my youngest is old enough to walk safely alone... we've tried hand holding but my silly three year old can't pay attention and I almost run her over so I know that is a major NO go - my youngest is two, then three, then five, then I have older kids.

I'm not super familiar with ADA - I'm not American but from other places online I "thought" ADA meant that places had to allow you reasonable accommodations to basically carry out your life. Like not just Disney having special ride vehicles but anywhere letting you use the reasonable accommodations you need. Maybe I am WAY off there though cause I haven't dug into it.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Yes but they haven't - I'm sure they "could" make any rule they want. They "could" say we all need to wear green and walk backwards but they won't. IF they say you absolutely can not have a toddler or infant on your lap then I will respect that they are a private property and have rules for a reason - BUT they haven't and I HIGHLY doubt they will make that blanket statement as I don't know how they can and still comply with ADA.

The ADA relates to accommodations for the disabled person, not for their family. And Disney has no legal obligation under the ADA to accommodate every single disability, nor are they required to provide the accommodation of your choice.

Safety trumps accommodation, as it should.