Free Form Friday Discussion- 5th Gate

[GunnarCharles]

On the December 11th FFF, the team talked about Disney making a 5th gate in responding to Universal's very likely 3rd park. The question was posed about what this park would be like. I agree with them that there might not be enough for a whole "tragic kingdom" villains park.
Here are two options I think that could be possible. The first is a taking inspiration from "Disney's America." I realize this became an inspiration to DCA but in some version or another I think they could make it work. The other idea I think would be interesting would be something similar to Tokyo Disney Sea. I have never visited this park but from what i have heard and read it is an amazing park. Plus I don't believe there would be too much concern about cannibalization because the parks are so far apart and in different markets.
I do not have any inside information and realize this might be a stretch but these were just a couple of potential ideas I think would be interesting to pursue. Does anyone else have thoughts about a 5th gate for WDW.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

On the December 11th FFF, the team talked about Disney making a 5th gate in responding to Universal's very likely 3rd park. The question was posed about what this park would be like. I agree with them that there might not be enough for a whole "tragic kingdom" villains park.
Here are two options I think that could be possible. The first is a taking inspiration from "Disney's America." I realize this became an inspiration to DCA but in some version or another I think they could make it work. The other idea I think would be interesting would be something similar to Tokyo Disney Sea. I have never visited this park but from what i have heard and read it is an amazing park. Plus I don't believe there would be too much concern about cannibalization because the parks are so far apart and in different markets.
I do not have any inside information and realize this might be a stretch but these were just a couple of potential ideas I think would be interesting to pursue. Does anyone else have thoughts about a 5th gate for WDW.

Don't have any ideas, but I think yours sound great, and well thought out.

 

[Princess Jes]

Not enough for a tragic kingdom?!
Every Disney movie has a villain, I'd think that if there's enough movies for fantasyland, Pixar place, Cars Land (you get my drift) that there are equal counterparts for a tragic kingdom?

 

[Princess Jes]

Also, I think this discussion brings up two different threads:
1. What would you LIKE to see in a 5th gate
Vs
2. What do you think Disney would do for a 5th gate.

I think they're two different topics entirely. One being a "dream park" and the other being more realistic ideas.

 

[samsteele]

I agree the "Tragic Kingdom" may be a tough stretch for an entire 5th gate. However, split themes or loosely associated themes for a 5th gate is a strong possible. I still like the "Tragic Kingdom" idea with villains because I think it has legs. The popularity of Halloween in general in North American retail (and just growing! It eclipsed Christmas themed decor and party notions in Canada yrs ago) and the intense popularity/attendance at MNSSHP makes this a viable theme. But the allure of copying proven up & running attractions from something like Tokyo Disney Seas might allow half of a 5th gate to be up and generating revenue in a few years (gasp) while building and working out the kinks in the villains half of the park. Speculation? Absolutely. But a 5th gate has to happen. I'm just hoping to see it in its entirety before my 55th birthday. That would be a treat! But if I could even get to see half of an open 5th gate in the next 5 years I would be over the moon. Personally, I don't care if half of a 5th gate is a rip off of a faraway (to me) park like Tokyo. I'll likely never see that park. 99% of North Americans will never have the chance to travel to that park. It remains a world away on our limited annual 2 week North American vacation time (if we're lucky) and budgets. With all apologies to Imagineering who no doubt would love to have a 100% originally themed 5th gate, I say bring it on! Give me a halfsie park now while I'm still young enough to hike it. And I'll take Tragic Kingdom a few years later on installment.

 

[GunnarCharles]

Not enough for a tragic kingdom?!
Every Disney movie has a villain, I'd think that if there's enough movies for fantasyland, Pixar place, Cars Land (you get my drift) that there are equal counterparts for a tragic kingdom?

That is certainly a fair point. If they did build such a park I'm sure I would go and very much enjoy it. I trust Disney imagineering and believe they have far better ideas and capabilities than many give them credit for. I would however not be surprised if something like what samsteele mentioned happens and they don't have a full villains park but rather incorporate it as a piece of a larger park.

 

[GreatLakes]

I believe there will be a 3rd gate in CA before a 5th in FL. I think the parking garage construction out there is an early step in freeing them up to build over surface lots.

With the additions to DHS and AK along with hopefully some future updates to Epcot I don't necessarily think they need a 5th gate in FL, just better use of the 4 they have.

Just a hunch.

 

[beastlyprince]

5th Park - Disney's Villains and Heroes Adventure Park

Layout: like the Magic Kingdom

Themes: Disney/Pixar villains and heroes; a look back at the past (lost attractions); Disney history

1) Adventure Blvd. (Main St. U.S.A. like entrance)

Attraction 1: A reworking of "One Man's Dream". Much larger than the one at Hollywood Studios. Major collection of park models.

2) Villainsland (location: think Fantasyland at Magic Kingdom)

Attraction 1: Maleficent's Castle - Queue through the castle to board the "Sleeping Beauty" ride, complete with fire breathing dragon.
The castle would be the park's icon.
Attraction 2: Villains Unleashed - dark ride; audio-animatronics of the major Disney/Pixar villains (think "The Great Movie Ride")
Attraction 3: 101 Dalmatians - dark ride (transportation via Cruella Deville's automobile)
Attraction 4: The Emperor's New Groove - part water ride/part dark ride; comedy from Yzma
Attraction 5: The Nightmare Before Christmas - dark ride (think "Haunted Mansion")


3) Yesterdayland (location: think Adventureland at Magic Kingdom)

Attraction 1: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs - new version dark ride
Attraction 2: Pinocchio - new version dark ride
Attraction 3: Mr. Toad's Wild Ride - new version dark ride
Attraction 4: Alice in Wonderland - new version dark ride
Attraction 5: Carousel of Progress - new version

4) Heroesland (location: think Tomorrowland at Magic Kingdom)

Attraction 1: Heroes To The Rescue - dark ride; audio-animatronics of the major Disney/Pixar heroes (think "The Great Movie Ride")
Attraction 2: Aladdin show
Attraction 3: The Incredibles - part dark ride/part roller coaster
Attraction 4: Brave - dark ride
Attraction 5: Hercules - flat ride/spinner (Pegasus, Pain, Panic)

 

[dina444444]

I believe there will be a 3rd gate in CA before a 5th in FL. I think the parking garage construction out there is an early step in freeing them up to build over surface lots.

With the additions to DHS and AK along with hopefully some future updates to Epcot I don't necessarily think they need a 5th gate in FL, just better use of the 4 they have.

Just a hunch.

As a DL local they are building the garage because they are more frequently having to displace cast member parking and use parking lots that are not there's (garden walk/convention center) to handle the current crowds they see. However if they do build on one of the surface lots I think it will be where the toy story lot is because it was initially leased to them with the intention that they build a theme park on it after a certain number of years. Also, Angel stadium is going to possibly become vacated in the next few years if the Angels can't agree to terms on a renovation at the stadium and decide to have a new one built elsewhere in Orange County.

 

[beastlyprince]

I agree the "Tragic Kingdom" may be a tough stretch for an entire 5th gate. However, split themes or loosely associated themes for a 5th gate is a strong possible. I still like the "Tragic Kingdom" idea with villains because I think it has legs. The popularity of Halloween in general in North American retail (and just growing! It eclipsed Christmas themed decor and party notions in Canada yrs ago) and the intense popularity/attendance at MNSSHP makes this a viable theme. But the allure of copying proven up & running attractions from something like Tokyo Disney Seas might allow half of a 5th gate to be up and generating revenue in a few years (gasp) while building and working out the kinks in the villains half of the park. Speculation? Absolutely. But a 5th gate has to happen. I'm just hoping to see it in its entirety before my 55th birthday. That would be a treat! But if I could even get to see half of an open 5th gate in the next 5 years I would be over the moon. Personally, I don't care if half of a 5th gate is a rip off of a faraway (to me) park like Tokyo. I'll likely never see that park. 99% of North Americans will never have the chance to travel to that park. It remains a world away on our limited annual 2 week North American vacation time (if we're lucky) and budgets. With all apologies to Imagineering who no doubt would love to have a 100% originally themed 5th gate, I say bring it on! Give me a halfsie park now while I'm still young enough to hike it. And I'll take Tragic Kingdom a few years later on installment.

"Tragic Kingdom" is a cute play on words. After thinking about it that term is very un-Disney. With the way things are going in this world "Tragic Kingdom" would become a huge bull's eye. If something tragic were to happen there then you would truly have your "Tragic Kingdom".

 

[beastlyprince]

Where on Walt Disney World property was the original "Tragic Kingdom" going to be located?

If this land is still available (i.e., nothing has been built upon it) do you think that a 5th gate would
be built in this area?

 

[beastlyprince]

I believe there will be a 3rd gate in CA before a 5th in FL. I think the parking garage construction out there is an early step in freeing them up to build over surface lots.

With the additions to DHS and AK along with hopefully some future updates to Epcot I don't necessarily think they need a 5th gate in FL, just better use of the 4 they have.

Just a hunch.

I'm still waiting for them to announce the Australian area (in that large amount of land north of Asia) at Animal Kingdom. Plus removing
Dinoland U.S.A. and putting Beastly Kingdom there.

 

[Accident]

One of my concerns with everything going on is how many more people are in MK now. As people come in for the first time for star wars or pandora, they aren't going to skip MK and MK for most is a 2 day park. Whatever the 5th gate is, it needs to be just as disney as MK is to spread out how much more crowded that park is.

 

[Princess Jes]

I'm still waiting for them to announce the Australian area (in that large amount of land north of Asia) at Animal Kingdom. Plus removing
Dinoland U.S.A. and putting Beastly Kingdom there.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the Australia thing :-(

One of my concerns with everything going on is how many more people are in MK now. As people come in for the first time for star wars or pandora, they aren't going to skip MK and MK for most is a 2 day park. Whatever the 5th gate is, it needs to be just as disney as MK is to spread out how much more crowded that park is.

They need to load any 5th gate up with lots of ride style attractions, not a heap of shows. People want rides; dark, thrill, whatever. But they need to suck crowds and they need to have to spend more than a day there, as you've said above.
The only way to do that is to load it up with more than, what does AK and DHS have? 11 attractions? Pathetic.
Wdw has 4 parks and DLR has more attractions in 2 parks and a lot less space.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I thought an Aventure/Super Hero type park would have been cool and included things like Star Wards, whatever from Marvel they can (Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.), The Incredibles, and some Disney Jr stuff like Miles from Tomorrowland and Jake and the Neverland Pirates

... but with Star Wars land in DHS, obviously this wouldn't work anymore

Something that really showcases Americas History could be interesting - take ideas for the park Walt was thinking about for Virgina, include the never built Western River Expedition attraction,

 

[OhioStateBuckeye]

I know this isn't very likely, but I'd argue that the US could support another Disney park entirely (probably in Texas). WDW is getting to the point where they'll just be stealing business from their own parks if they make many more. I thought I heard somewhere that the average family vacation is 5 days. They already have 4 parks and people seem to like to do Mk twice. At some point if you keep adding parks people won't have time for them all.

For DL, I just can't see where they'll find the space unless it's at a huge cost.

Once again, I know it's unlikely so don't be mean, just a thought. I really do think they could build a new park near Houston, Texas and have it be wildly popular. Houston has a huge population for locals. With how slammed both DL and WDW have been lately, I think another location would help a lot.

I imagine Disney would rather build new parks in other countries however, and let them foot the bill.

Still, I think our economy could support a new Disney Parks location.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

I know this isn't very likely, but I'd argue that the US could support another Disney park entirely (probably in Texas). WDW is getting to the point where they'll just be stealing business from their own parks if they make many more. I thought I heard somewhere that the average family vacation is 5 days. They already have 4 parks and people seem to like to do Mk twice. At some point if you keep adding parks people won't have time for them all.

For DL, I just can't see where they'll find the space unless it's at a huge cost.

Once again, I know it's unlikely so don't be mean, just a thought. I really do think they could build a new park near Houston, Texas and have it be wildly popular. Houston has a huge population for locals. With how slammed both DL and WDW have been lately, I think another location would help a lot.

I imagine Disney would rather build new parks in other countries however, and let them foot the bill.

Still, I think our economy could support a new Disney Parks location.

Don't know enough to intelligently comment, but just waned to give you kudos for such a well stated and thought out conjecture!

 

[flvy]

Honestly I'd rather see improvement on the parks that they have which seems like it's happening. The issue with that is attendance. I think a big motivator for any theme park to add another gate is to accommodate more people. More people = more money. They'd have to do some major expanding to fit more into the parks they have not just reworking the areas that are there.

A villains area in any themed park would be enough to get the public there. I also don't think it has enough to support a whole park, just an area. Disney knows that fans love the villains and that they can bring guests every day.

Someone said it, but they need to add in thrill rides. Whatever it is, it needs to be a park with lots of rides not just shows.

 

[rteetz]

With current management in place I don't see a 5th gate happening whether Universal does a 3rd gate or not.

Disney needs to maximize their current parks AK, Epcot, and DHS before they move onto another park.

As for a theme for that said 5th gate, tragic kingdom was a done deal ready to go before 9/11 but that changed everything as travel took a big hit.

At this point I don't see tragic kingdom working out. A 5th gate would be something original. My wish would be for a DisneySea style park in the states but again with current management I don't see that happening.

I have complete faith in what Imagineering could do but Disney needs to open the purse to allow that to happen. Look at Animal Kingdom. That park had many shortcuts and budget cuts because Eisner cut it off and wanted that park open.

Now for the villains heroes thing, what do you do with MK? You are crossing a similarity line where I don't know if that type of park would bring in that same amount of guests as the other four parks. A 5th gate would also cannibalize some of the attendance at the current 4 parks. I wouldn't worry about the MK attendance but Epcot, DHS, and AK could possibly be in trouble in that situation.

Location of a 5th gate could come in many places. There is a lot of land left for development out there. The most feasible choice is near the flamingo crossing development.

 

[rteetz]

I'm still waiting for them to announce the Australian area (in that large amount of land north of Asia) at Animal Kingdom. Plus removing
Dinoland U.S.A. and putting Beastly Kingdom there.

A dinoland fix up could come but Australia isn't likely and Beastly Kingdom is now avatar.