For $2 Billion Disney could have built 16 major attractions instead of fast pass+

[JimmyV]

The key to NFL that everyone glosses over that will cause it to stand the test of time... is just how deep of a build it was. From the ground up, sculpting mountains out of flat ground, building rivers, waterfalls, and bridges that are 30' above chasms. These are the reasons it cost a fortune to build.

I don't think others gloss over it so much as you overestimate it. For the time and money spent, people were hoping for new Disney classic rides that would be added to their list of favorite attractions. Nothing built in NFL will be added to anyone's Top 10 rides at WDW the way Splash Mountain, Everest, Soarin' and Test Track are. Or Pirates. Or Haunted Mansion. Or TSMM. Or Peter Pan even. The evolution of Imagineering gave us most of these rides within the past 15-20 years. The attractions at NFL are a huge step backwards. Nice rides. But people want more from Disney than "nice". People outgrow "nice".

Of course there will always be more families with small kids. But go back to Walt's mission ststement when he built Disneyland. The goal was for "whole family" entertainment and not just "little kid entertainment with bored older children or adults". NFL fails this test.

 

[MrInfinity]

Barnstormer already accomplished that.

You keep reducing it to the rides. I get it. You go for the rides. If you don't see the SDMT as worlds different from the Barnstormer, then there really is not much to say.

Fully half the attributes you cited illustrate reasons to be concerned.

Um... were you going to follow this up w details? Or just "half of what I say" in general.

Again, it's not whether I "like" or "dislike" anything about it, it's about what was accomplished for the huge cost and where the focus obviously was.

AKA the focus was not on creating a ride that would thrill you.

(which turned out to be a major fail for my test market DS9)

This would not surprise me, with how overtly uninspired you are. Do you like architecture? Are you inspired by bridges? By waterfalls? By the immensity of building two mountains, a bridge connecting them, walkways that meander thru them, and just how massive that is? That is cool that Disney makes things that are so easily taken for granted. Like if you look at a new city building, you'd go "they don't make buildings with detail like they used to" and it's true... But Disney, DOES make buildings.. and land... and rides... with every detail thought out. They're so beautiful it's easy to assume they just showed up that way.

that could have been accomplished with quite a few additional attractions at much less cost.

I would not want 10 Six-Flags style coasters on a parking lot in place of the EF.

I spent a considerable amount of time looking at the construction techniques used. And the level of detail in even the minor, often unseen areas is impressive. So I agree with you in that regard, but those are not things that will hold a little kid's attention.

Ah... but those things are what differentiate SF from WDW... Remember the discussion about how parents don't really want to go to SF cuz there isn't a lot for families to enjoy there? Well at WDW they make "being there" pleasant for the family. So while this particular feature is not for the 3-9 kids, it is for the parents thereof.

all the hoopla over it died down as quickly as it did. It's been rejuvenated a bit with the opening of 7DMT just about six months ago but that is starting to wane as well.

Life goes on! In the end it's just a ride, and things like the Russian Rouble -- or even my job -- will overshadow it as the hype breaks and we return to life. When not going to the parks, most guests are not talking about it like you and I and others out here.

STILL a pain to get a BOG or SDMT res, and that's the mob in the morning that immediately runs up to an hour+ wait. It'll be like that for years.

 

[hakepb]

You keep reducing it to the rides. I get it. You go for the rides. If you don't see the SDMT as worlds different from the Barnstormer, then there really is not much to say.

Barnstormer was the answer to your "much needed" 40" coaster audience. EPCOT, DHS and DAK have a much greater need for a sub 40" coaster than MK.

 

[Laketravis]

You keep reducing it to the rides. I get it. You go for the rides. If you don't see the SDMT as worlds different from the Barnstormer, then there really is not much to say.

Not at all - you keep pulling quotes out of context and try to build new arguments.

Of 7DMT, you said "This was needed. Before you had to be 40" and 44" to ride these, now there is a 38" coaster!" and I replied that Barnstormer already accomplished that. So contrary to your statement, 7DMT was not needed.

Um... were you going to follow this up w details? Or just "half of what I say" in general.

I supplied the reference, but you only quote my comment. You said "BOG. This is huge! Gaston's. New Quick Service. Prince Eric's. More Quick Service. Shopping. Tons of new shops.....". That constitutes roughly half of the elements you cited as being positives, and I said that's why it should be cause for concern - if half of Disney's focus is going to be on more places to eat and buy crappy merchandise, then we should probably lower our expectations for what Avatar or Star Wars plans might provide.

AKA the focus was not on creating a ride that would thrill you.

I absolutely agree. I'm not demanding "rides that thrill me" - I'm simply putting forth the reasoning why it seems Disney is spending an inordinate amount of money without getting the corresponding bang for the buck. You haven't argued that it isn't a lot of money so on that point I think we agree; but you do feel that the end result was worth the spend and on that point we don't. Whether or not we both agree that we can make some accurate speculation on what Disney's strategy will be for "New Lands" going forward based on what they did with Fantasy Land and what they are doing in Epcot remains to be seen. Why is Disney not paying attention to where the overwhelming demand is based on the longest queue times in all of the parks and build more of those?

This would not surprise me, with how overtly uninspired you are. Do you like architecture?

Another cheap shot derived from using a quote out of context. I believe I did state that I spent a considerable amount of time checking it all out and found the build and level of detail impressive. But please make up your mind - was it designed to be a kiddie park that captures the imagination of youth for decades to come and that's why adults don't get it, or is it an architectural marvel that adults just need to understand and kids will simply ignore and that's what the attraction will be for years to come?

I would not want 10 Six-Flags style coasters on a parking lot..

Nor would I, even though when I gave you a link to a Youtube video of one, you thought it was cool. So have you ever seen Space Mountain or Rock N Roller Coaster with the lights on? What do you think they are? My suggestion was to take something like what is in that video, house it in a pavilion, apply some Disney magic that imagineers were famous for, call it something Disney and even if they spent 5 times as much on it as SF does it would still be a fraction of what they've spent to produce Under the Sea or 7DMT. I'll remind you yet again where the longest lines are in all of Disney World; they aren't for Captain EO or Teacups or Barnstormer or even Under the Sea... they are for the best "thrill" rides Disney has to offer.

So why can't Disney build more of those? If you took that coaster video that you thought was cool, put it in a building that featured Circlevision Imax, and themed it along the lines of a Disney classic, how could that not be at least as good if not better than Soarin?

Instead, we get a Test Track refurb that ripped out props that made sense and installed plywood cutouts with neon lighting like something out of a confused Tron video. And the lines are still long. Why? Because it goes fast at the end. Duh.

 

[JanaDee]

I don't think others gloss over it so much as you overestimate it. For the time and money spent, people were hoping for new Disney classic rides that would be added to their list of favorite attractions. Nothing built in NFL will be added to anyone's Top 10 rides at WDW the way Splash Mountain, Everest, Soarin' and Test Track are. Or Pirates. Or Haunted Mansion. Or TSMM. Or Peter Pan even. The evolution of Imagineering gave us most of these rides within the past 15-20 years. The attractions at NFL are a huge step backwards. Nice rides. But people want more from Disney than "nice". People outgrow "nice".

Of course there will always be more families with small kids. But go back to Walt's mission ststement when he built Disneyland. The goal was for "whole family" entertainment and not just "little kid entertainment with bored older children or adults". NFL fails this test.

 

[Laketravis]

I did not mention that over the course of two weeks during Thanksgiving when we were in this 8th wonder of the world Fantasy Land, the only crowded portions were the 7DMT queue and (of course) BOG. The rest was virtually empty in relation to the rest of the Magic Kingdom. Nobody in the big top. Nobody over at Under the Sea, no kids swarming the ground fountains on 80 degree days, nada zilch.

I thought that was really odd. But the reason I didn't mention it is because I don't know if it's that way most of the time now. Maybe others who are there now or just got back could offer their perspective.

 

[jade1]

I did not mention that over the course of two weeks during Thanksgiving when we were in this 8th wonder of the world Fantasy Land, the only crowded portions were the 7DMT queue and (of course) BOG. The rest was virtually empty in relation to the rest of the Magic Kingdom. Nobody in the big top. Nobody over at Under the Sea, no kids swarming the ground fountains on 80 degree days, nada zilch.

I thought that was really odd. But the reason I didn't mention it is because I don't know if it's that way most of the time now. Maybe others who are there now or just got back could offer their perspective.

FP+ has removed a lot of the crowd (everywhere) in one way or another IMO, actually you have noted that yourself many times, so not sure why you found that odd.

That and the MK had so much going on at the castle, it seemed a lot of folks hung out there. We enjoyed a lot of that far better than most any ride at MK actually. Stupid castle lighting alone was now a favorite by many, yes including me.

 

[Laketravis]

FP+ has removed a lot of the crowd (everywhere) in one way or another IMO, actually you have noted that yourself many times, so not sure why you found that odd.

That is true but I don't think it was solely responsible for the disproportionate lack of crowds in FL that I observed.

I remember the M&G by the big top had a posted wait time of 30 minutes but the CM told us there was nobody in there, so DS went inside and sure enough it was just him. This is while Small World was seeing 45 minute wait times.

I may have unwittingly determined the cause myself while in there noticing how few others there were - stamped concrete can only take you so far.

There really wasn't much else to do. Unless we wanted to eat or buy something, of course.

 

[mom2rtk]

That is true but I don't think it was solely responsible for the disproportionate lack of crowds in FL that I observed.

Agreed. If that was the cause, one would expect to see it equally around the park.

 

[jade1]

There really wasn't much else to do. Unless we wanted to eat or buy something, of course.

Exactly-the meander around and waste time crowd is greatly diminished. And those M&G's are not that big of a draw IMO, that and they are really hidden.

In the past guests would have selected a FP- for 7DMT at 11AM for a return time of 7PM to 8PM (we just know that at least Thanksgiving week), they would indeed do others things around MK throughout the day, but eventually killing time in that area would be part of it for a lot of folks.

Now they can just walk in that one hour window-even off the street (Main or otherwise) to accomplish what they really want. Exactly what we did anyway.

 

[Laketravis]

I hear ya. That makes sense. There just aren't enough "things" in there to spend much time on.

The more I try to put this in perspective, the more ridiculous it seems.

Here is a picture of what took Disney 7 years and $600 million to produce.

I'll spare you the narrative, pretty much anyone can look at that picture and see what (little) there is to do outside of eating and shopping after 7 years and $600 million. I sure hope Avalon and Star Wars is more than this.

To the OP's original point - add this to the $2 billion he's talking about and I just think so much more could have been done in terms of more attractions with potential to be long term classics.

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[jade1]

To the OP's original point - add this to the $2 billion he's talking about and I just think so much more could have been done in terms of more attractions with potential to be long term classics.

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Actually subtract this from the $2 Billion and they have $1.4 Billion to go.

 

[JimmyV]

FP+ has removed a lot of the crowd (everywhere) in one way or another IMO, actually you have noted that yourself many times, so not sure why you found that odd.

To the extent that anyone actually understands FP+, one of its goals was to take people out of lines and into the "rest of the park" (presumably revenue producing venues). So it is odd that Laketravis didn't see more "buzz" around an area that most guests probably hadn't seen before.

 

[jade1]

To the extent that anyone actually understands FP+, one of its goals was to take people out of lines and into the "rest of the park" (presumably revenue producing venues). So it is odd that Laketravis didn't see more "buzz" around an area that most guests probably hadn't seen before.

Goal not exceeded IMO.

Now FP- with its 8 hour waits yes, but it appeared to me (and I think Travis agreed) that it may be bringing in waves of crowds at different times as the FP's are now "clumped" together and not so spread out, as well as "in hand" before arrival.

That and a lot of folks have no hurry to arrive anymore, and many can depart earlier as they finish up what they want.

What this can do is allow capacity to be much more rolling-even doubling or tripling in theory.

That can be a lot more 5 minute sweatshirt purchases.

 

[JimmyV]

What this can do is allow capacity to be much more rolling-even doubling or tripling in theory.

Makes sense.

 

[MrInfinity]

Of 7DMT, you said "This was needed. Before you had to be 40" and 44" to ride these, now there is a 38" coaster!" and I replied that Barnstormer already accomplished that. So contrary to your statement, 7DMT was not needed.

It's really unfortunate that you think Barnstormer fill the same role as SDMT. But if you do, whatever I'm not going to change your mind!

I supplied the reference, but you only quote my comment. You said "BOG. This is huge! Gaston's. New Quick Service. Prince Eric's. More Quick Service. Shopping. Tons of new shops.....". That constitutes roughly half of the elements you cited as being positives, and I said that's why it should be cause for concern - if half of Disney's focus is going to be on more places to eat and buy

Of course half of the places are things to buy - merch and food. ANY theme park is like this. It's about making money.

You haven't argued that it isn't a lot of money so on that point I think we agree; but you do feel that the end result was worth the spend and on that point we don't. Whether or not we both agree that we can make some accurate speculation on what Disney's strategy will be for "New Lands" going forward based on what they did with Fantasy Land and what they are doing in Epcot remains to be seen. Why is Disney not paying attention to where the overwhelming demand is based on the longest queue times in all of the parks and build more of those?

I agree it was a lot of money. But also it was a major earth-moving rebuild, not installing a ride. Doing the kind of work they did is expensive, and what separates SDMT which is beautifully themed with hills and valleys and water features and no ugly metal showing.... whereas Batman is an eyesore. The 3-dimensional earth moving is so expensive that lesser parks would never even think of doing it, let alone put in grass they just build on a parking lot.

Another cheap shot derived from using a quote out of context. I believe I did state that I spent a considerable amount of time checking it all out and found the build and level of detail impressive.

Fair enough, then you acknowledge this was on a different plane than rides added at a Six Flags.

But please make up your mind - was it designed to be a kiddie park that captures the imagination of youth for decades to come and that's why adults don't get it, or is it an architectural marvel that adults just need to understand and kids will simply ignore and that's what the attraction will be for years to come?

My position has never changed. The market is for kids 3-9 and the parents thereof. They are pulling in the family unit to stay for a week.

Nor would I, even though when I gave you a link to a Youtube video of one, you thought it was cool.

Of course it's cool to a roller coaster lover. Doesn't mean it belongs at Disney World.

So have you ever seen Space Mountain or Rock N Roller Coaster with the lights on?

They keep the lights off! Theming. What about Everest or the Matterhorn - these are in the light, outdoors, and are gorgeous because they're visible.

What do you think they are? My suggestion was to take something like what is in that video, house it in a pavilion, apply some Disney magic that imagineers were famous for, call it something Disney

I saw that post, and never contested it. Not a bad idea. Essentially like SM / RR.

I'll remind you yet again where the longest lines are in all of Disney World

See I think this is where you go wrong. Adding a thrill ride would not do more to bring families. Yes it would give adults something else they'd want to do, but it would not in itself be cause for that family with young kids to say "hey let's to to Disney World cuz they have a new ride like the one at Six Flags." Six Flags already has those. Disney puts in the EF because that WILL and DOES draw the families. A kid-friendly coaster / dark ride that revitalizes the MK does exactly draw those families.

So why can't Disney build more of those?

It's just not their market! Why do you keep wanting them to be in some less profitable market that isn't what they do? Why don't you simply, like you are, go to Universal, where they have rides like those? That is a park more geared toward people who want thrill rides. It is less of the family vacation park. So go enjoy it! Go to Magic Mountain, Bush Gardens, Six Flags, Cedar Point, Universal Studios, or whatever.

Instead, we get a Test Track refurb that ripped out props that made sense and installed plywood cutouts with neon lighting like something out of a confused Tron video. And the lines are still long. Why? Because it goes fast at the end. Duh.

We kinda liked the whole experience. Not just the fast part. Including the after-ride play things that you probly have no interest in doing. And the MS playthings are cool too!

 

[Davey Jones II]

This whole "bang for the buck" discussion does not take into account the incredible inflation in the cost of building themed rides. In the 50s, the entirety of Disneyland cost $17 million to build. Today that's a fraction of the cost of a new Disney ride. As I noted earlier, I don't think they can even build a true E Ticket anymore for $100 million. Everest was the last one. $100 million was the price tag for the DCA version of The Little Mermaid ride, which opened in 2011.

So can Disney ever get "bang for the buck" in the eyes of Disers? Every time they announce something that will cost nine figures, expectations are usually unrealistic. I don't think people realize just how much all this theming costs. Six Flags gets off easy in comparison; you can build a half dozen steel coasters for the price of one solid, D Ticket dark ride.

But, as someone noted earlier in this thread, people don't travel across the country, or halfway around the world, to experience a metal monster thrill ride. Given that everything at WDW revolves around the popularity of the Magic Kingdom, I think NFL was worth the $600 million. It improved capacity at the MK and helps it stay on top as the world's most popular theme park.

During our October visit, I saw lots of people in NFL, although the lion's share were in the 85 minute queues for 7DMT, of course. We needed a FP+ for ETWB. We couldn't even ride Dumbo because of very long wait times, despite the fact that the ride has been doubled. And kids certainly seemed to love everything about the new land (as did our party, two adults).

Disney will always have to spend fortunes to create new attractions and lands. So, to many, it will always seem that they spent too much for what they got.

 

[Robo]

Disney will always have to spend fortunes to create new attractions and lands, so, to many, it will always seem that they spent too much for what they got.

The overall point of this thread is that they didn't spend the money (in the thread title) on building ANY attractions.

They spent somewhere between one and two billion dollars on a "guest-scattering" system.

 

[Laketravis]

Exactly. But with a caveat.

Any documents I can find, whether they be patents or investor call transcripts - promoted the concept that getting people out of lines would present additional purchasing opportunities encouraged by the convenience of a Magic Band touch pay system.

Kind of makes sense when looking at NFE and the equal weighting of "buy" options versus "do" options.

I'm beginning to wonder if they even anticipated that rather than shop, those guests would simply leave the park - making room for more guests and allowing them to claim that MM/FP+ provide a virtual increase in park capacities but those guests may not be making those sweatshirt purchases on their way out.

Goal not exceeded IMO.

Now FP- with its 8 hour waits yes, but it appeared to me (and I think Travis agreed) that it may be bringing in waves of crowds at different times as the FP's are now "clumped" together and not so spread out, as well as "in hand" before arrival.

That and a lot of folks have no hurry to arrive anymore, and many can depart earlier as they finish up what they want.

What this can do is allow capacity to be much more rolling-even doubling or tripling in theory.

That can be a lot more 5 minute sweatshirt purchases.

 

[Laketravis]

This whole "bang for the buck" discussion does not take into account the incredible inflation in the cost of building themed rides.

I don't really believe that - certainly popular attractions can be built for less than hundreds of millions each.

But, as someone noted earlier in this thread, people don't travel across the country, or halfway around the world, to experience a metal monster thrill ride.

Turn on the lights and that is what Space Mountain or Rock n Roller Coaster or Tower of Terror is.

The overall point of this thread is that they didn't spend the money (in the thread title) on building ANY attractions.

They spent somewhere between one and two billion dollars on a "guest-scattering" system.