First Riviera ROFR

[Brian Noble]

Hard to say. This was a "major life transition" gift to myself, so it was fine if it wasn't the most fiscally responsible. But it would have taken a lot more work to talk myself into a developer purchase. And, if RIV was not restricted, I suspect the resale vs. developer delta would be smaller, so maybe it would not have been too difficult after all, becuase this also meant a Blue Card.

 

[Mouseforward]

Good point! Do you think you would’ve bought direct RIV if DVC were still under the same terms as 2015? Or more likely bought resale, since they were still all tradable with perks (exc. Disney Collection)?

DVD needs to sell direct points to make money. Without reasons to choose direct over resale I think they wouldn’t sell as many points this year or in the next 5 or 10+ years if they had not made these changes.

Pre-2015 I would’ve bought resale, the question is if Riviera was unrestricted would I care about benefits? Since I’m mostly go solo, probably not.

But since I missed out, I wanna stay at Riviera.
I’m going to pay the same maintenance fees resale or direct so I bought the direct product that gives me more flexibility.

 

[atthebeachclub]

While it is fun to argue about how much resale prices will rise or fall at RIV compared to other resorts, I think it misses a big point. That point is that resale prices are going to fall at all resorts and maybe pretty dramatically. What makes resale attractive is the savings versus a cash stay at a regular Disney deluxe resort over time. For the current prices to remain sustainable it requires the cash rates at Disney deluxe resorts to be able to keep increasing at the incredible rate they have in the post pandemic world. If you look at what is happening hotel occupancy rates and prices over the last six months around the world, those kind of increases in cash rates are proving to be unsustainable. If you think Disney won't be impacted by the kind of problems we are seeing develop in places like Vegas, I think you are being overly optimistic.

I am not saying we are headed into a recession or anything like that. I just think we are seeing a growing backlash to the dramatic increases in the cost of vacations far outpacing even the sky high inflation rates. Now that people don't feel the need for revenge travel, they are becoming ever increasingly price sensitive when it comes to vacation spending.

I agree with you here very much.

 

[PolyRob]

In 2016 DVC removed membership perks from resale. In 2019 DVC added resort restrictions to resale when sales opened at RIV. Neither of these impact a Direct buyer using their contract. They get the perks and are not blocked from trading into any resorts.

DVC set out to differentiate direct from resale. The very first move was back in 2011, removing new resale’s ability to trade points into the Disney Collection. It was a smart move using something few people cared about. Gently it acclimated the DVC community to the idea that certain things do not legally need to be included with resale. The big punch came 5 years later, when membership extras were taken from new resale. Even then, it was done gently because they allowed as little as 25pts direct to qualify for perks. Slowly they raised that minimum direct purchase, and 3 years later when RIV was the first restricted resort that minimum was 100pts. In 2021 it was raised to 150pts.

Another change from the high RIV sales in late 2019/early 2020 is the competition for RIV from DVC direct. There were no other WDW resorts in active sale besides RIV. Sold out resorts were also a little harder to get direct. VGF was only available via waitlist. VGC was not being sold at all. DVC couldn't even change the UY on reacquired points until April 2019.

DVC seems perfectly fine having three different WDW resorts in active sales at the same time as one DL resort and Aulani. I've been following DVC since VGF was in active sales and it was really only one WDW resort at a time. Declare one sold out, then put promotions on the new one and push that.

Imagine if PVB IT and CFW weren't an option? I would imagine a bunch of those new buyers would buy RIV since it was the only direct resort with decent incentives. New members would purchase with the hopes of booking other accommodations like AKV value studios and whatever else the guides tell them.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

Another change from the high RIV sales in late 2019/early 2020 is the competition for RIV from DVC direct. There were no other WDW resorts in active sale besides RIV.

Not true, Copper Creek didn’t sell out until late spring 2021 so it was in active sales for a while with RIV. It also had a better point chart, a prettier lobby, proximity to MK, and lower dues. RIV still had remarkable numbers.

 

[PolyRob]

Not true, Copper Creek didn’t sell out until late spring 2021 so it was in active sales for a while with RIV. It also had a better point chart, a prettier lobby, proximity to MK, and lower dues. RIV still had remarkable numbers.

This is incorrect about CCV. The "sold out" price increased in 2021.

Copper Creek reached "sold out" status in June 2019 and the base price increased. You could still buy it, but it wasn't considered to be in "active sales."

https://www.dvcnews.com/dvc-program...4414-sold-out-price-revealed-for-copper-creek

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/financial/news-34867/4519-direct-sales-report-for-june-2019

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

This is incorrect about CCV. The "sold out" price increased in 2021.

Copper Creek reached "sold out" status in June 2019 and the promotional incentives stopped. You could still buy it, but it wasn't in "active sales."

https://www.dvcnews.com/dvc-program...4414-sold-out-price-revealed-for-copper-creek

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/financial/news-34867/4519-direct-sales-report-for-june-2019

Idk this article says differently

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...irst-copper-creek-buybacks-occur-in-june-2021

“While no formal announcement has been made, Copper Creek Villas was removed from direct purchase incentives on 13 May 2021 which is an indication that the resort has reached a sold-out status. Disney Vacation Development buying back contracts is another sign of sold-out status.”

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

This is incorrect about CCV. The "sold out" price increased in 2021.

Copper Creek reached "sold out" status in June 2019 and the base price increased. You could still buy it, but it wasn't considered to be in "active sales."

https://www.dvcnews.com/dvc-program...4414-sold-out-price-revealed-for-copper-creek

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/financial/news-34867/4519-direct-sales-report-for-june-2019

The first article only says the resort would increase base price and that CCV was 85% sold out by June 2019. So not sold out? Bit of a misleading title from them.

ETA: Maybe the expectation was to be sold out but the reality was different?

 

[PolyRob]

The first article only says the resort would increase base price and that CCV was 85% sold out by June 2019. So not sold out? Bit of a misleading title from them.

ETA: Maybe the expectation was to be sold out but the reality was different?

Maybe Disney said "sold out" to justify the price increase? Disney can say something is "sold out" even when it's sitting on much more than 2% of the points in inventory. VGF wasn't "sold out" until April 2015 and PVB went on sale in Jan 2015, but the focus shifted and PVB was being pushed in active sales.

RIV was the primary WDW property being sold summer 2019.

2020+ did change a bunch of things (including resort builds like Reflections halting and Big Pine Key getting announced) so maybe plans did adjust with the CCV inventory?

 

[Sandisw]

The first article only says the resort would increase base price and that CCV was 85% sold out by June 2019. So not sold out? Bit of a misleading title from them.

ETA: Maybe the expectation was to be sold out but the reality was different?

IIRC, they took it off active sales and then it came back.

It was weird

 

[Genie+]

The first article only says the resort would increase base price and that CCV was 85% sold out by June 2019. So not sold out? Bit of a misleading title from them.

ETA: Maybe the expectation was to be sold out but the reality was different?

Confused me too because I remember threads about choosing RIV vs CCV direct for quite a while after Riviera opened Dec 2019. In hindsight it looks like DVC was playing with the optics.

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...ct-purchase-incentives-revealed-for-fall-2020

“Despite published rates of $195 per point for Disney's Riviera Resort and Aulani, Disney Vacation Club Villas and $220 for Copper Creek Villas and Cabins, DVC routinely discounts the newest properties to lower the net price. Rates are typically lower for current DVC members than for new buyers, and these fall offers are no different.

As always, discounts vary depending upon the number of points purchased. Following is a sample of some rates currently available when buying direct from DVC:

Discounts for Riviera, Aulani and Copper Creek are as follows:

New Member Discounts

150-199 points: $8 off per point
200-299 points: $18
300+ points: $23

Existing Member Add-On

100-124 points: $1 off per point
125-149 points: $8
150-199 points: $18
200-299 points: $23
300-499 points: $28
500-999 points: $33
1000+ points: $48

The above discounts are reductions from the stated base rate. A first-time buyer purchasing 200 points at Riviera or Aulani would pay a net rate of $177 per point ($195-$18), plus applicable closing costs and other fees.

Despite its "sold out" status, idential discounts are also available at Copper Creek Villas and Cabins, albeit at a much higher base price of $220 per point. Thus a new buyer of 200 Copper Creek points would pay $202 per point, which is the base of $220 less $18 discount.

These prices are a bit of a step back from the summer pricing which provided discounts up to $35 each for 200 points at Rivera.

Prices are scheduled to run through November 4, 2020 but may change at any time. For complete details or offers on other properties, we recommend contacting a Disney Vacation Clubsalesperson.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

I think in terms of ccv, they took it out of active sales to push people to riv, because riv with the new restrictions was the unknown. I stayed away and opted for more ccv points. Now am on the fence before it sells out of adding on anywhere from 100 to 200 points at RIV. Only because the restrictions would never work for us. I think this is the last round of decent incentives. Still on the fence i think this round of incentives goes to middle september.

 

[DVCsloth]

I think in terms of ccv, they took it out of active sales to push people to riv, because riv with the new restrictions was the unknown. I stayed away and opted for more ccv points. Now am on the fence before it sells out of adding on anywhere from 100 to 200 points at RIV. Only because the restrictions would never work for us. I think this is the last round of decent incentives. Still on the fence i think this round of incentives goes to middle september.

We love both resorts and like that it gives us a MK area and Epcot area resort to choose from.

 

[havoc315]

DVD set out to differentiate resale from direct. Buying resale in 2025 is different from buying direct. 10 years ago it would’ve virtually been the same product. I’d say that is helping them sell more Direct points. If you want the whole kit and kaboodle, direct is the only way.

Exactly. And it's why the resale restrictions help Disney sell more direct points:

"Wow... I'm not currently a DVC owner but the new Poly tower looks great, I want that to be my home resort!" -- Ok, you can purchase direct, or you can save money and purchase resale.

"I'd like to visit a couple times per day, I really don't care where I stay" -- Go buy those SSR re-sale points!

"I'd really like to stay in a Poly studio every Christmas, and stay in a 1 bedroom at a different resort in the summer" -- Poly re-sale!

"Grand Floridian and Beach Club are my two favorite resorts" -- You can buy re-sale at both. Or you can buy re-sale at 1, and use the other at 7 month availability!

"Grand Floridian and Riviera are my two favorite resorts" -- You need to buy direct. It can be direct at GF or at Riviera.. but you have to buy direct.

Essentially, the restrictions push a lot of potential resale buyers into direct buy. The resale market for Riviera still exists -- But it is smaller, limited to those happy with a single resort, or those using the points as add-on.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

I have said all along - the resale restrictions have made me pause purchasing RIV. I thought at one point we would purchase resale there - but I don't want to have to use points there - circles me back to direct

 

[Sandisw]

I have said all along - the resale restrictions have made me pause purchasing RIV. I thought at one point we would purchase resale there - but I don't want to have to use points there - circles me back to direct

To add, when RIV was it, it was easier I think for people to opt out as you are locked out of one.

Now, it’s RIV, VDH, and CFW…once you start having more new resorts excluded from resale, it may shift thinking.

 

[havoc315]

To add, when RIV was it, it was easier I think for people to opt out as you are locked out of one.

Now, it’s RIV, VDH, and CFW…once you start having more new resorts excluded from resale, it may shift thinking.

Especially true when the older resorts starting disappearing in 16 more years.
Imagine 2045:
Direct points are good at 20+ resorts.
For all the newest resorts with longest contracts, re-sale will be 1 resort only.
“Original” resort resale points will be valid at only about 9 resorts, 3 of which having under 15 years left on contract. And all the newest resorts excluded.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Disney eventually adopt more standardized buy back programs during periods of reduced new building. (I can imagine VDL and Lakeside Lodge carrying sales to 2030… but then a slowdown in the 2030’s awaiting massive re-building in the 2040’s).

 

[eticketplease]

Direct points are good at 20+ resorts.

What is the secret to getting into the 3+ resorts that haven’t been opened yet?

 

[stat]

What is the secret to getting into the 3+ resorts that haven’t been opened yet?

Waiting 20 years He said "imagine in 2045." One will be finished soon and I'm sure a couple more will be built by then.

 

[eticketplease]

Waiting 20 years He said "imagine in 2045." One will be finished soon and I'm sure a couple more will be built by then.

Totally missed that part lol