First Florida cruise approved by CDC in June!

[HiStitch626]

No approval is needed from the state to resume business

Yes, that is what Florida is saying. But, the CDC requirement is that a health plan is in place, I assume so that if there is an outbreak that ships have a place to go where passengers or crew can get medical care. If Florida is refusing to approve a health plan for ships sailing from Florida what happens if they need to dock?

So, the state will not allow the cruise lines to require vaccines. They will also not authorize a plan for health care if needed if there is an outbreak on the ships. And, if unvaccinated people are sailing, there is more likely to be an outbreak.

 

[sethschroeder]

Yes, that is what Florida is saying. But, the CDC requirement is that a health plan is in place, I assume so that if there is an outbreak that ships have a place to go where passengers or crew can get medical care. If Florida is refusing to approve a health plan for ships sailing from Florida what happens if they need to dock?

So, the state will not allow the cruise lines to require vaccines. They will also not authorize a plan for health care if needed if there is an outbreak on the ships. And, if unvaccinated people are sailing, there is more likely to be an outbreak.

Except the CDC has an option to create a health plan that can be approved without vaccination requirements. So I am not seeing your point.

Florida's point is that these companies need a health plan that is exclusive of a vaccine requirement. Asking for vaccination status if included in the health plan comes along with a $5k fine from the state on each incident.

In addition Florida doesn't care what the CDC is doing the state has their stance and laws. This is not unlike the Federal restrictions on marijuana while states have it legal. I don't think its exactly the same but hopefully its a good example.

 

[orum]

If you are seriously worried then you need to treat it like no check is being done to vaccination status and watch what the data shows over the coming months.

Do I think many people will use fake vaccination cards for things like a cruise? I am very doubtful of this because you are exiting the country and there is more risk than showing a fake vaccine card at a local store.

I did a little search and there is up to $5k in fines and 5 years in prison possible for fake vaccination cards but I am not sure how plausible that is for enforcement or lets be honest even finding out the information to start with. We will see I guess.

For me personally if I was going on a cruise this summer I would mask up regardless of policies most likely.

If you were caught lying about vaccination status, I would expect the civil damages to the cruise line would be way more than the criminal ones (assuming you would get caught).

 

[Marrila]

If you were caught lying about vaccination status, I would expect the civil damages to the cruise line would be way more than the criminal ones (assuming you would get caught).

The cruise lines have plenty of attorneys. The costs to the untruth teller would probably be substantial if they were involved in spread.

 

[sethschroeder]

If you were caught lying about vaccination status, I would expect the civil damages to the cruise line would be way more than the criminal ones (assuming you would get caught).

Except what damages? Is risk damage? Its also unlikely you are personally telling everyone you used a fake CDC card so that would be on the cruiseline then if they had damages to their brand. In addition if people did get sick could they prove it was you that spread the virus? Maybe they don't need to?

Maybe I am missing something here.

In the end the bigger thing is if the cruise lines are going to have some form of requirement on passengers out of Florida and what Florida is going to do.

 

[orum]

Except what damages? Is risk damage? Its also unlikely you are personally telling everyone you used a fake CDC card so that would be on the cruiseline then if they had damages to their brand. In addition if people did get sick could they prove it was you that spread the virus? Maybe they don't need to?

Maybe I am missing something here.

No you aren’t missing anything. I had a much more complete thought in my head than what made it Into the post. It should have said if there was an outbreak and you lied (especially if you were one of the people sick in the outbreak).

The odds of getting caught may be so low that it wouldn’t really stop people. But the damages suffered by a cruise line for an outbreak would be huge.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

PR is critical on restart. The damage that would be done by an outbreak cannot just be sued away.

 

[Lynes88]

I just want a verification process to be as robust as it can be. When getting vaccinated, we experienced a range of verification. I never showed my ID and simply presented my QR code. My daughter was required to show a passport, a medical insurance card and I had to show my ID as well. All of our personal information was collected through registration by our county where we live. The records are there if DCL wants to try and get access to run a query (assuming approvals are in place). No data is exchanged, DCL just gets a "verification" when checking names. Hard to say how this plays out. But yea, I would think DCL would want to get this process to be as reliable as possible... the impact of an outbreak are huge and as noted, the liabilities all around are huge.

 

[sethschroeder]

I just want a verification process to be as robust as it can be. When getting vaccinated, we experienced a range of verification. I never showed my ID and simply presented my QR code. My daughter was required to show a passport, a medical insurance card and I had to show my ID as well. All of our personal information was collected through registration by our county where we live. The records are there if DCL wants to try and get access to run a query (assuming approvals are in place). No data is exchanged, DCL just gets a "verification" when checking names. Hard to say how this plays out. But yea, I would think DCL would want to get this process to be as reliable as possible... the impact of an outbreak are huge and as noted, the liabilities all around are huge.

I would not expect anything more than a check of the vaccine card or if you have some other medical record showing the vaccination.

Also process that is specific to your county but not others. I am 99.9% positive there would be zero way for someone to verify my vaccination status by calling the county.

Now they could verify status via a state record database but only if they have my social security number but even then they might be breaking a law as the central database access is meant for patient access not 3rd party access. Also the information could be faked there as well if you really wanted since you just need to provide "proof" to your doctors office and they enter the immunization on your record. The whole system is meant simply for tracking for parents not for enforcement of vaccination.

 

[HiStitch626]

Except the CDC has an option to create a health plan that can be approved without vaccination requirements. So I am not seeing your point.

Florida's point is that these companies need a health plan that is exclusive of a vaccine requirement. Asking for vaccination status if included in the health plan comes along with a $5k fine from the state on each incident.

In addition Florida doesn't care what the CDC is doing the state has their stance and laws. This is not unlike the Federal restrictions on marijuana while states have it legal. I don't think its exactly the same but hopefully its a good example.

But, Florida said they will not sign off on any health plan. And, the health plan is not just about vaccination. It's also about the care needed if the ship should experience an outbreak. Would Florida prevent a ship from docking if there is an outbreak onboard and people needed care? They tried this when the pandemic began.

 

[sethschroeder]

But, Florida said they will not sign off on any health plan. And, the health plan is not just about vaccination. It's also about the care needed if the ship should experience an outbreak. Would Florida prevent a ship from docking if there is an outbreak onboard and people needed care? They tried this when the pandemic began.

Don't knows thats something the cruise ship operators can ask or possibly have been told. Florida does not need to sign off on a health plan to have cruise ship operators setup a plan and ask the state and local authorities agree.

I think you are mixing up "not signing off on health plans" with "can't ask if what the cruise ship has planned is okay to do".

Florida is just saying there are no requirements from them except the vaccine passport ban. Cruise ship operators are allowed to ask the state and local governments questions though and clarifications.

 

[sethschroeder]

I just want to add everyone seems to have this backwards. Normally in the US its do what you want until you hit a law that restricts it. The CDC is the one asking for this to work backwards and say nothing is allowed unless being told its allowed.

Not saying one is right or one is wrong but this is how its working.

 

[lanejudy]

I did a little more digging and you are right, the CDC does not collect vaccine data but all states do.

No, not quite. States have records of those who received vaccinations through the State-run programs/clinics. Once the Feds starting allowing supply to individual pharmacy chains outside of the state supply, the state does not have access to those records.

If the state did a bad job, not checking someone's ID, hard to do much about that, but the records are supposed to be verified with an ID.

Nope, no law requires an ID to receive a vaccination, at least not in all states.

The records are there if DCL wants to try and get access to run a query (assuming approvals are in place).

Even if there were complete records, several states are refusing to participate in a vaccine passport which means they won't allow access to the state-owned records. It's a massive hodge-podge of records through states, pharmacies, PCPs, etc. There is no way any cruiseline (or any business) could have access to verify all that.

 

[jerry557]

In Florida, it’ll be difficult to prosecute people who forge a vaccine card. First, Florida won’t allow anyone to access their database to verify. So a company or government will never know it’s fake. The feds keep no database and even they can’t access Florida’s database.

But it’s been made clear by the governor that the state of Florida is not enforcing any COVID laws. DeSantis has even gone as far as issuing mass pardons to people who have been prosecuted for breaking mandates. The state has passed a law banning vaccination verification by 3rd parties. The state is not going to help cruise lines verify. Even if a judge says the cruise lines can require vaccines in Florida, the state government would be under no obligation to assist in that endeavor.

 

[Disneyloverliz]

I'm booked on the Fantasy Sept. 18-25 and I am HOLDING MY BREATH that we sail! We are all vaccinated, but it's just a wait game to see what DCL does! Hoping Hoping Hoping!

 

[Disneyloverliz]

I'm booked on the Fantasy Sept. 18-25 and I am HOLDING MY BREATH that we sail! We are all vaccinated, but it's just a wait game to see what DCL does! Hoping Hoping Hoping!

 

[Snowwhyt]

Except what damages? Is risk damage? Its also unlikely you are personally telling everyone you used a fake CDC card so that would be on the cruiseline then if they had damages to their brand. In addition if people did get sick could they prove it was you that spread the virus? Maybe they don't need to?

Maybe I am missing something here.

In the end the bigger thing is if the cruise lines are going to have some form of requirement on passengers out of Florida and what Florida is going to do.

Wasn’t there a country that is jailing a girl because she didn’t do the 14 day quarantine? Wanted to see her boyfriend or brother at some sporting event?
Happy to see same thing happen to those that lie about the vaccine. A little bread and water lengthy vacation time in a historic rich state/Country held institution where they can get to know the locals on a personal level. Many don’t even charge for room service. We just need a few of those cases in the media to scale back the fraud. Then the US also might pick up a law about medical fraud.

it’s one thing to ruin a persons cruise, it’s another to ruin their life.

 

[Lynes88]

No, not quite. States have records of those who received vaccinations through the State-run programs/clinics. Once the Feds starting allowing supply to individual pharmacy chains outside of the state supply, the state does not have access to those records.


Nope, no law requires an ID to receive a vaccination, at least not in all states.


Even if there were complete records, several states are refusing to participate in a vaccine passport which means they won't allow access to the state-owned records. It's a massive hodge-podge of records through states, pharmacies, PCPs, etc. There is no way any cruiseline (or any business) could have access to verify all that.

Yea I was not as thorough with my opinion. I know an ID was not required. State residency is not required, and even foreign nationals (visa holders) in some cases can get vaccinated. It was inconsistent in some ways from our limited experience, that was really my main point. And I am not suggesting DCL "calls" any health department like someone else seemed to think... but there are ways for states and businesses to work out ways to verify vaccinations. The state never shares any patient data... nothing, it is just a verification when a business runs a query against a state database. I think New York and IBM are working on this exact solution.

 

[Dug720]

Wasn’t there a country that is jailing a girl because she didn’t do the 14 day quarantine? Wanted to see her boyfriend or brother at some sporting event?
Happy to see same thing happen to those that lie about the vaccine. A little bread and water lengthy vacation time in a historic rich state/Country held institution where they can get to know the locals on a personal level. Many don’t even charge for room service. We just need a few of those cases in the media to scale back the fraud. Then the US also might pick up a law about medical fraud.

it’s one thing to ruin a persons cruise, it’s another to ruin their life.

Yep. The Cayman Islands. She not only didn't do the mandatory quarantine, she took off her monitoring bracelet to skip quarantine. Her boyfriend was also charged with aiding and abetting her. Both were sentenced to 4 months in jail.

Edit to add: The initially were only fined $2600 and 40 hours of community service each but decided to appeal and got the jail time. It could have been $10,000 Cayman Dollars (about $12K in US) and 2 years if they had gotten the max.

 

[jerry557]

Yea I was not as thorough with my opinion. I know an ID was not required. State residency is not required, and even foreign nationals (visa holders) in some cases can get vaccinated. It was inconsistent in some ways from our limited experience, that was really my main point. And I am not suggesting DCL "calls" any health department like someone else seemed to think... but there are ways for states and businesses to work out ways to verify vaccinations. The state never shares any patient data... nothing, it is just a verification when a business runs a query against a state database. I think New York and IBM are working on this exact solution.

That’s the controversial “vaccine passport.” Thats what people are fighting about. As far as I know only 2 states were looking at working out a vaccine passport type of system for verification. New York and Hawaii were the only 2. Florida and Montana have outright banned it through legislation. Several other states have banned it through executive order and a few are looking at passing more laws against it.

If states don’t allow access to their database, there is no way to verify other than to just go by those CDC cards they give out. And if that’s not good enough for the cruise lines, they will just have to not sail. If you as a passenger are uneasy about it, don’t go.