Fingerprint scan doesn't work for me

[Maistre Gracey]

http://www.secureidnews.com/news-item/biometrics-at-the-disney-gates/

 

[keishashadow]

This has been our experience as well. We tell them every time that it never works, but they always insist that he tries it a few times.

Yep same here
Tell them my 'worn down' finger prints don't work but they do insist I still try several times on both hands before summoning the supervisor
Maybe it breaks up their day or they've been trained to follow the three attempts rule.

Various CMs indicated its common for those that have done on lots of typing over the years. Last time the phrase 'old secretaries' was used LOL! Might be but You'd think the way people text it'd be more common if true

 

[jekjones1558]

Teller, my Mom has the very same issue almost every time she tries to enter the park. We have annual passes and its a hassle every time. She scans her finger and it doesn't work. They have her do it again, still no go. They ask her if she is using the same finger and to try a different one. After having her try 2-3 times, they raise their arm to call over a Supervisor. Supervisor asks if she's certain she is using the same finger. She says yes. Then supervisor has her reset her fingerprint. At this point they also take her picture or look for her picture in the system. This whole process takes 3-4 minutes which is forever if you are in line behind her. She now tell the first cast member to call a supervisor because her finger prints can't be read. She also tells them there is a photo of her on file. It doesn't matter. They ignore her and go through all the steps every time. It is so frustrating for her!!!!

I always enter the park in front of her and meet her in the first gift shop (there is one in every park). At least, that keeps my blood pressure down.

We have annual passes and my DH goes through this exact hassle every time also. He is in a scooter and I have always assumed that it is because the angle he has his finger when he scans may be slightly different each time, depending on the placement of the scooter. I dread entering parks. He also has a huge hassle at airport security. It is beginning to feel discriminatory. Being disabled is not fun.

 

[Geoff_M]

http://www.secureidnews.com/news-item/biometrics-at-the-disney-gates/

That article is over ten years old. They are talking about the old-style "V" finger scanners where you had to push your index and middle fingers up against the post. Yes, that system used finger measurements such as the lengths and widths. But that system was scrapped when the replacement scanners were rolled out that only required the use of a single fingertip. These scanners only scan the surface area of the fingertip you touch to the glass. That cannot use things like width or length measurements because there's no post to push against to establish a constant point to measure from, and the area of your fingertip that touches the glass will vary based on how much pressure you use when you press down your finger.

The new scanners use the same principle as one of these guys, which is marketed as a "fingerprint scanner":

Here's a news article from later in 2006 after Disney switched to the single fingertip scanners. Note description of the advantages of the new scanners, as quoted from the company widely thought to have been the providers of the new scanners:

Currently deployed systems cannot obtain adequate fingerprints from up to sixteen percent of the population; LightPrint sensors can reduce that rate to nearly zero. Lumidigm has developed a multispectral imager (MSI) that is able to collect additional information from below the surface of the skin. Unlike traditional technology, LightPrint technology is not dependent on the quality or authenticity of the fingerprint ridges presented. The LightPrint sensor can look beyond surface ridges to verify their authenticity and enhance the identifying image. If the carpenter with the worn ridges presses the platen, the LightPrint sensor can read the unique unaffected fingerprint under the skin and enhance the image. Similarly, if there is water or “normal” city grime obscuring the surface ridges, or if the finger isn't fully touching the sensor, environmentally robust LightPrint technology can enhance the incomplete surface ridge information with data from below the surface of the skin. The LightPrint sensor’s spoof detection ability is unique. LightPrint technology can detect a fraudulent fingerprint (a “spoof”) easily by measuring the subsurface data (or lack of subsurface data!) against known characteristics of living skin.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

That article is ten years old. They are talking about the old-style "V" finger scanners where you had to push your index and middle fingers up against the post. Yes, that system used finger measurements such as the lengths and widths. But that system was scrapped when the replacement scanners were rolled out that only required the use of a single fingertip. These scanners only scan the surface area of the fingertip you touch to the glass. That cannot use things like width or length measurements because there's no post to push against to establish a constant point to measure from, and the area of your fingertip that touches the glass will vary based on how much pressure you use when you press down your finger.

The new scanners use the same principle as one of these guys, which is marketed as a "fingerprint scanner":

I'm not saying you're wrong, but virtually every article contradicts your theory. I quoted one, but there were six Google pages I could have quoted that said no fingerprints.

MG

 

[wsssup]

Its strange that this has been obviously a problem for awhile with no real apparent back up plan that works.

Hard to believe seeing how Disneyland have no problems with their photo system which is attached to your ticket.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Its strange that this has been obviously a problem for awhile with no real apparent back up plan that works.

Hard to believe seeing how Disneyland have no problems with their photo system which is attached to your ticket.

Thought WDW had the photo plan as a backup??

MG

 

[wsssup]

Thought WDW had the photo plan as a backup??

MG

Yes they do, but as a few have said constantly retaking photos or not being able to find photos is an unreliable system.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Yes they do, but as a few have said constantly retaking photos or not being able to find photos is an unreliable system.

I agree with that...

MG

 

[Geoff_M]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but virtually every article contradicts your theory. I quoted one, but there were six Google pages I could have quoted that said no fingerprints.

MG

No they do not contradict what I've said. Disney is being intentionally vague about what kind of "points" on your finger they're measuring. Fingerprints ARE part of your fingers. Their PR department knows that explicitly saying that they're looking at your fingerprint will make plenty of people jittery about what exactly they're up to, so they don't use the "FP" word when they talk about "points on your finger." Just Google the topic and look at all of the people that only half-jokingly wonder if Disney's finger scanning system is somehow in cahoots with the NSA!

If I had to guess what exactly they're doing, I know that computer algorithms can consistently detect certain points on any given fingerprint (that's how computers then match one fingerprint to another). My further guess is that instead of Disney collecting the number of points on a fingerprint needed to make a unique match, they only collect the locations of three given points on your fingerprint.... three points makes a triangle... and you can then compute the area of the given triangle... which is a NUMBER! Your number might only match 1 in a 100 people, which is enough to stop people from sharing tickets, but isn't unique enough to violate your privacy. It may not be a "triangle", but I think it's likely that the relative locations of the three points gets dropped into some type of formula to generate your "number" which is then saved with your ticket record in Disney's database.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

No they do not contradict what I've said. Disney is being intentionally vague about what kind of "points" on your finger they're measuring. Fingerprints ARE part of your fingers. Their PR department knows that explicitly saying that they're looking at your fingerprint will make plenty of people jittery about what exactly they're up to, so they don't use the "FP" word when then talk about "points on your finger." If I had to guess what exactly they're doing, I know that computer algorithms can consistently detect certain points on any given fingerprint (that's how computers then match one fingerprint to another). My further guess is that instead of Disney collecting the number of points on a fingerprint needed to make a unique match, they only collect the locations of three given points on your fingerprint.... three points makes a triangle... and you can then compute the area of the given triangle... which is a NUMBER! Your number might only match 1 in a 100 people, which is enough to stop people from sharing tickets, but isn't unique enough to violate your privacy. It may not be a "triangle", but I think it's likely that the relative locations of the three points gets dropped into some type of formula to generate your "number" which is then saved with your ticket record in Disney's database.

But there's also zero evidence to prove its a print. The three points as I understand it are width/circumference of finger at three points.
Obviously none of us know for certain, but I truly would not believe it's a print anymore than the alternative.
I personally have used different fingers to test the system and have gained entry 3 of 4 times. That jives with Disney saying it's not unique, which an actual print would be.
A coded fingerprint is indeed a fingerprint. Obviously it can be decoded, and Disney swears they don't store prints.

MG

 

[andyman8]

Hard to believe seeing how Disneyland have no problems with their photo system which is attached to your ticket.

Well, I will say that it seems the DLR system can cause some significant backups, especially early in the morning. Went to a Magic Mornings back in June and waited over half an hour in a line for the turnstiles at the gate. Massive back up and all of the other lines appeared to be just as long with none of them moving much faster. CMs attributed it to having to take those photos for multi-day guests.

 

[Geoff_M]

But there's also zero evidence to prove its a print. The three points as I understand it are width/circumference of finger at three points.
Obviously none of us know for certain, but I truly would not believe it's a print anymore than the alternative.
I personally have used different fingers to test the system and have gained entry 3 of 4 times. That jives with Disney saying it's not unique, which an actual print would be.
A coded fingerprint is indeed a fingerprint. Obviously it can be decoded, and Disney swears they don't store prints.

MG

If you wish to disregard the description of what the hardware does as stated by the company that is believed to have been the vendor that Disney uses/used, so be it.

I will ask you to consider this: Look at your fingertip. Given that effectively all that the scanner can see is the 2D area of skin pressed against the glass (and it's an area that will vary in size depending on the pressure your fingertip is applied against it), what exactly does the scanner have to work with as far as discrete "points" to chose from that can be reasonably consistently determined each time your finger is scanned? What "width" is being measured where? The same goes regarding circumference. "Circumference" of what exactly? And how would these widths and circumferences not change unless you position your fingertip at the same angle with the same amount of pressure each time?

And no, measuring a very limited part of your fingerprint does not capture something that is unique. This is why police often declare that they cannot ID a suspect based on a partial finger print... "coded" or otherwise. Also in algorithms, different inputs to the function can yield the same output value. Back to my triangle example, different shaped and sized triangles (representing different fingerprints) CAN have the same area value. So if I give you an area of a triangle, it is impossible to say with any certainty what size and shape triangle was used to generate it as there will be many possible correct answers. Another example of this is the check digit at the end of UPC codes. To try and guard against optical scanner errors, the last digit of a UPC code is not part of the actual UPC code, it is generated using a formula that involves all of the digits of the UPC code. Comparing the UPC code against the check digit will tell a POS system at a grocery if the scanner read the code correctly, but since there are only ten different check digit values (0-9), you cannot compute the UPC code if you only have the check digit to work with. The same would be the case of a simplistic "check digit" formula that used three input values from a fingerprint to general a value that might have 10 or 100 different possible values. But just like UPCs, having the fingerprint "check digit(s)' cannot be used to render the person's fingerprint with any degree of certainty.

 

[rotlex]

Please take a moment to email guest.services@disneyworld.com and let disney know your negative experiences. They can't fix what they don't realize isn't working smoothly.

I would think the supervisors that continue to handle these situations at the front gates would report this on a daily basis.

 

[married2mm]

We had this problem with dmil last year (in a wheelchair & 85 years young at the time)
Several tries-to no avail
Photo eventually taken-supposedly all good

And again the very next park we entered -the same ordeal over & over
Photo id was simply not sufficient for the initial cms.
They continued to persist trying her finger scan-even though we knew it didn't work?!

I requested was there not some alternative method available & was informed no!

This May-we thought we'd try(just for fun)
Surprisingly-still not activated by dmil fingers or thumbs-
I believe she went through both hands...
She's a patient soul-I'm not & clearly the line behind us aren't either!!

This time-I suggested I "become dmil" on one hand & myself on the other.
This was initially met with disapproval and then accepted.
I wore both bands
Scanned my left index finger & then my right.

No further issues.

 

[GaryDis]

That article is over ten years old. They are talking about the old-style "V" finger scanners where you had to push your index and middle fingers up against the post.

It also says they were deployed in 2005, while I'm quite sure we used the V finger scanners much earlier than that.

 

[lchicago]

This happened to DD this trip. She was either too wiggly or not at the right angle/height or whatever. It worked once with her finger and that was it. Eventually I asked if I could just rescan and use my finger instead and that was allowed. Saved us all a lot of time. I don't know if they would allow that with another adult but hopefully other parents can do it for their kids.

 

[Accident]

I would think the supervisors that continue to handle these situations at the front gates would report this on a daily basis.

This assumes the tapstyle CM was doing their job right. Maybe the problem is they aren't trained well or don't know how to do their job so also coming in from the other direction will find out where the system isn't working (and the system might be human error by the castmember that keeps taking more photos).

 

[linzbear]

Maybe instead of saying "the fingerprint scanner never works for me" try saying "I refuse to give you my fingerprint, please call a supervisor." The first statement indicates you've been willing to try, the latter indicates that you won't and there's no point eating time.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

If you wish to disregard the description of what the hardware does as stated by the company that is believed to have been the vendor that Disney uses/used, so be it.

I will ask you to consider this: Look at your fingertip. Given that effectively all that the scanner can see is the 2D area of skin pressed against the glass (and it's an area that will vary in size depending on the pressure your fingertip is applied against it), what exactly does the scanner have to work with as far as discrete "points" to chose from that can be reasonably consistently determined each time your finger is scanned? What "width" is being measured where? The same goes regarding circumference. "Circumference" of what exactly? And how would these widths and circumferences not change unless you position your fingertip at the same angle with the same amount of pressure each time?

And no, measuring a very limited part of your fingerprint does not capture something that is unique. This is why police often declare that they cannot ID a suspect based on a partial finger print... "coded" or otherwise. Also in algorithms, different inputs to the function can yield the same output value. Back to my triangle example, different shaped and sized triangles (representing different fingerprints) CAN have the same area value. So if I give you an area of a triangle, it is impossible to say with any certainty what size and shape triangle was used to generate it as there will be many possible correct answers. Another example of this is the check digit at the end of UPC codes. To try and guard against optical scanner errors, the last digit of a UPC code is not part of the actual UPC code, it is generated using a formula that involves all of the digits of the UPC code. Comparing the UPC code against the check digit will tell a POS system at a grocery if the scanner read the code correctly, but since there are only ten different check digit values (0-9), you cannot compute the UPC code if you only have the check digit to work with. The same would be the case of a simplistic "check digit" formula that used three input values from a fingerprint to general a value that might have 10 or 100 different possible values. But just like UPCs, having the fingerprint "check digit(s)' cannot be used to render the person's fingerprint with any degree of certainty.

I'm not saying it's not a fingerprint, but rather we don't know for sure.
Disney says no, some say yes.

I have no clue how they do it. I also have no clue how they will identify my shoe.

BTW... A fingerprint is a 3D image. If prints had no depth, well... there would be no prints.

ETA: If it is a fingerprint, why stop at three points? I believe the FBI standard is six points. Obviously they could easily do that...

MG