Fender bender and lawyering up

[PrincessShmoo]

When giving a police report, if a person rear ended someone how do they explain that without it sounding like it's their fault?

When talking to the police, it's different than admitting fault. You're just describing what you think happened.

And, if you've ever watched People's Court, you'd be aware that any 3 people's views of "what happened?" in the same incident, you're going to get 3 different points of view.

 

[Klayfish]

I apologize in advance if it seems like I"m taking over this thread, but since you are an expert, what do you think would happen in this scenario:

- Driver without insurance runs a stop sign and crashes into SUV.
- Accident kills mom, injures 3 kids and passenger.
- Driver goes to jail and awaits trial (not released on bond because wanted in another state under other charges).

Will this poor family get anything when it comes to a lawsuit? The driver will most likely spend some years in jail. Will their insurance company pay them? More than likely the driver spent time before jail hiding his assets.

These are very sad situations. I've seen it many times. Hopefully, the fatally injured family (I'm presuming they are her kids who are injured) have what's called "uninsured motorist" coverage. That would step in, in place of the insurance the at fault driver should have had. For the passenger in that car, if they aren't related to the killed mother, they have slightly different options. They could also pursue uninsured motorist coverage through their own policy (if they're a minor, their parents' policy), or depending on state law they could also pursue the fatally injured mothers' policy too. Trying to go after the assets of the at fault driver is something the family could do, instead of going after their own uninsured motorist, but they can't do both...it has to be one or the other. Typically going through insurance is the easiest route, then let the insurance company pursue the drivers' assets...trust me, it's a major hassle. If the fatally injured family had no uninsured motorist coverage, then sadly they have little recourse except to go after the uninsured driver. I hope this isn't a personal situation for you, very sorry to hear about it. As a side note, so many people think SUVs are so much "safer" to be in than a car. I can tell you unequivocally, they are not. They aren't worse (though in some respects they are), but they aren't what people think either.

It has frustrated many folks I know when they have a not at fault accident, with no citation, and their insurance company decides it was their fault to settle the claim the cheapest say they can.
https://www.esurance.com/info/car/how-fault-is-determined-after-a-car-accident

Remember, police don't make liability decisions, insurance companies do. So citations or lack thereof, often don't make liability. People also don't make liability decisions...in other words, you're saying they had a "not at fault" accident, but according to who? The driver? Very possible they think they aren't at fault, but in reality they are. And your last sentence is not really accurate. If a driver isn't at fault by their insurance company investigation, the claim will be denied. In those cases, if liability is somewhat clear, it's unlikely the other driver would have an attorney anyway, because plaintiff lawyers won't touch cases like that (unless it's a very serious accident) because there's no money in it for them. In cases where liability is very much disputed...let's say each driver claims the other ran a red light, they met in the dead center of the intersection and there are no witnesses...then that can get VERY complicated. Yes, sometimes business decisions have to be made. But it's not just a money factor. Remember, it's not the insurance company who gets sued. It's the policyholder, i.e. you. The insurance companies job, above all else, is to defend (i.e. protect) and indemnify their policyholder. If paying a settlement on a contested claim will protect their policyholder from going through a lawsuit, being deposed or worse yet having a judgment against them, then those are things that have to be considered. After all, it's your (collectively as a society) money.

"Do not admit fault" isn't encouraging people to lie. Only to let someone else make the determination from an "objective" point of view. Participants in an accident are not objective, and often may say "Oh, I'm sorry" leading to the decision (by the other party) that they (the person making the "sorry" statement) are admitting fault.

Your insurance company is just reminding you to not say anything that could be mis-construed.

It's always best to leave the post-accident conversation to "Here's my insurance/driver's license information, where's yours?"

Yes, precisely this. It's got zero to do with encouraging to lie. As I mentioned earlier, people often have zero clue about liability matters, and are very emotional at the scene. The best thing to do is just tell the police what happened from their point of view in a factual manner. Let others make the liability decision. If a driver "admits fault" at a scene, it doesn't necessarily ruin things, but it may not help. Sure, in a rear end accident, there's typically not much to dispute. But in other accidents, there are. While we can argue them, it's never a "good look" if a plaintiff attorney has that on a police report that they can dangle over your head.

 

[sam_gordon]

@Klayfish and @ShadeDK ...

Here's my new concern... I would have been surprised if the damage to the other car went above $2K. The officer (yes, I know he's not a mechanic and neither am I) who made the report estimated the damage on the other car at $1500. There is a small scratch/dent on my vehicle that you wouldn't see if you weren't looking for it. We're not planning on getting it even estimated at this point. I had resigned myself to a worst case scenario that I'm found 100% liable for the damage (although I disagree) and take the (hopefully small) hit on my insurance rates (haven't had an accident in I don't know how long... DD had a fender bender 2 years ago, but that's it).

But lets say, because of the other driver getting a lawyer, insurance ends up settling for $20,000 or $50,000 (because that would be cheaper than fighting in court). Does this accident now look "worse" when it comes to my rates because it cost tens of thousands of dollars because of a shady lawyer vs. the couple thousand dollars of "true" damage?

 

[ShadeDK]

But lets say, because of the other driver getting a lawyer, insurance ends up settling for $20,000 or $50,000 (because that would be cheaper than fighting in court). Does this accident now look "worse" when it comes to my rates because it cost tens of thousands of dollars because of a shady lawyer vs. the couple thousand dollars of "true" damage?

It's a good question - although I'm not familiar enough with how insurance companies set individual auto insurance rates to say whether or how a more expensive settlement might affect those rates.

I will say that nuisance value claims (where it's less expensive to settle than fight in court) are lower dollar. Setting aside the value of "true" damage, I'd usually expect nuisance value to come in around $5,000 to $10,000 more. Above those numbers, you can buy an awful lot of attorney time to make life difficult for a personal injury attorney looking for a quick buck.

 

[Klayfish]

It's a good question - although I'm not familiar enough with how insurance companies set individual auto insurance rates to say whether or how a more expensive settlement might affect those rates.

I will say that nuisance value claims (where it's less expensive to settle than fight in court) are lower dollar. Setting aside the value of "true" damage, I'd usually expect nuisance value to come in around $5,000 to $10,000 more. Above those numbers, you can buy an awful lot of attorney time to make life difficult for a personal injury attorney looking for a quick buck.

Correct. And no, it won't look "worse" necessarily. That would require a major accident. A typical low speed impact, soft tissue, go to a phony chiro claim usually settles for well below $50k. In fact, even $50k isn't a major claim to an insurance company. Major claims are $100k and up, and those typically require a real injury, like one that requires surgery, etc...

And you'd be surprised how much physical damage claims to cars cost. Headlights can be $2000 just for the part. There's no such thing as a $500 scratch, for the most part.

 

[tvguy]

Remember, police don't make liability decisions, insurance companies do. So citations or lack thereof, often don't make liability. People also don't make liability decisions...in other words, you're saying they had a "not at fault" accident, but according to who? The driver? Very possible they think they aren't at fault, but in reality they are. And your last sentence is not really accurate. If a driver isn't at fault by their insurance company investigation, the claim will be denied. In those cases, if liability is somewhat clear, it's unlikely the other driver would have an attorney anyway, because plaintiff lawyers won't touch cases like that (unless it's a very serious accident) because there's no money in it for them. In cases where liability is very much disputed...let's say each driver claims the other ran a red light, they met in the dead center of the intersection and there are no witnesses...then that can get VERY complicated. Yes, sometimes business decisions have to be made. But it's not just a money factor. Remember, it's not the insurance company who gets sued. It's the policyholder, i.e. you. The insurance companies job, above all else, is to defend (i.e. protect) and indemnify their policyholder. If paying a settlement on a contested claim will protect their policyholder from going through a lawsuit, being deposed or worse yet having a judgment against them, then those are things that have to be considered. After all, it's your (collectively as a society) money.d.

The last sentence is can very much true. My neighbor was stopped (and had been for at least 30 seconds )at a traffic light when a guy riding a bike the wrong way on the cross street ran into the side of his truck. The bike rider filed a claim, never filed a lawsuit, but persisted with wanting a settlement. The insurance company offered him $20,000 to settle the claim to prevent the expense of defending what the claims adjuster said would have been 100% a baseless lawsuit. The adjuster said they figured it would cost them $100,000 to get the lawsuit dismissed if filed, so they offered the settlement, which was accepted. There is a portion of the Injury Lawyer industry and makes it's living on that. Some would call those lawyers sharks, but that is the way the system works

 

[wgeo]

Correct. And no, it won't look "worse" necessarily. That would require a major accident. A typical low speed impact, soft tissue, go to a phony chiro claim usually settles for well below $50k. In fact, even $50k isn't a major claim to an insurance company. Major claims are $100k and up, and those typically require a real injury, like one that requires surgery, etc...

And you'd be surprised how much physical damage claims to cars cost. Headlights can be $2000 just for the part. There's no such thing as a $500 scratch, for the most part.

I was surprised at how much repairs can add up. My husband was fully stopped at a stop light and got hit when someone tried to drive around him to get into the left turn lane. The other guys trailer hit the curb and bounced into the back left corner of husbands car. They didn't have the police come, it really looked like minor damage. Exchanged insurance info - husband went to a very reputable shop and was given an estimate of $1800. Other guy debated paying out of pocket or not, decided to let insurance handle it. We waited a week for the shop to get the parts, and in the meantime the back lift gate on husbands car starts not to close very well. Turns out there was damage to stuff that wasn't seen immediately and repairs were almost $5000 and took 2 weeks to fix (so add rental car fees for 2 weeks). We were really surprised at how such a small, slow speed incident added up so fast.

 

[Domo]

YOU WERE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BLOW THE BLOODY DOORS OFF!

 

[AuntieMe3]

We're dealing with the same thing. Minor accident, no airbags, no tow trick, very minor repairs to our smaller vehicle.... almost over a year ago and we just got a court summons delivered to our home. Thankfully our insurance is handling everything and we have very high coverage. After talking to the person handling the claim, we were told the person had already received over $15,000 from our insurance. Makes me sick to my stomach....

 

[sam_gordon]

We're dealing with the same thing. Minor accident, no airbags, no tow trick, very minor repairs to our smaller vehicle.... almost over a year ago and we just got a court summons delivered to our home. Thankfully our insurance is handling everything and we have very high coverage. After talking to the person handling the claim, we were told the person had already received over $15,000 from our insurance. Makes me sick to my stomach....

I didn't want to hear that.

 

[AuntieMe3]

@Klayfish and @ShadeDK ...

But lets say, because of the other driver getting a lawyer, insurance ends up settling for $20,000 or $50,000 (because that would be cheaper than fighting in court). Does this accident now look "worse" when it comes to my rates because it cost tens of thousands of dollars because of a shady lawyer vs. the couple thousand dollars of "true" damage?

Forgot to add to this...since our accident was almost a year ago, our rate had already been raised(very little which was nice and not what we expected) when it came time to renew. Our insurance agent has assured us our rates will not go up again no matter the outcome of this lawsuit so I hope that's the case for you as well.

 

[sam_gordon]

Thank you

 

[cassie58]

Had to comment on the ambulance chaser discussion - DD was recently in a school bus accident on the way home when a car hit a deer and it flew over and hit the front window of bus. Luckily the driver stayed calm and was able to pull over, and everyone was okay. They all had to write down name and info for police.

I had totally forgotten about it, when I received a letter addressed to "Parents of ..." and opened it to find a letter and magnet from lawyers at "www.igothurt.com"(seriously?!) , saying they had seen in public records that she had been in an accident on this date. I was shocked and disgusted that they could get that info. on a minor and contact them - I know that they technically contacted us, but still.

 

[DisneylandDarling]

Actually, yes they do. People think it's the police, but it's not. It's the insurance company, specifically the adjuster.

As many of you know, this is what I do for a living. I can explain it simple. Money. Money. Oh, did I mention money?

They're probably not actually injured. But here's exactly how this works....

Plaintiff lawyers have people who's job is to do nothing but scour police reports, scanners, etc...to find clients. They go recruit them and whisper all kinds of sweet things in their ear. The attorney will tell them what part of their body is hurt and what "doctor" (chiro) to go to. The chiro, which is just as shady as the lawyer, will tell them exactly what treatment to get and how long to get it, no matter what. They run up as many bills as they can, to make the claim look as big as they can. The "treatment" is usually a bunch of unnecessary x-rays, useless scans, then massage, ice packs, hot packs, e-stim (again, nearly useless). The attorney then sends a "demand" to the insurance company seeking a very large sum of money. Negotiations happen, the claim is settled. The attorney keeps 33-40% of it, which is basically most of the money the client would have pocketed on their own after paying the medical bills back (the attorney gets a kick back from the chiro too). If it doesn't settle, they will file suit. And it's not the insurance company they sue, it's you...the driver. The insurance company then has to spend more money providing a defense.

Before anyone gets all up in arms, yes, there are legitimate injuries that happen in auto accidents. No doubt. Those ones are REALLY a shame when an attorney gets involved, because they really take advantage of the injured person, in order to line their pockets. Often, they can interfere with the client getting the treatment they really need. Anyway, those cases are more of an exception. The majority are from the slimy attorney office that advertises on TV, with people who really aren't hurt, but want a payday.

OP, if you have any specific questions, don't hesitate to ask. If it is a TV attorney they hired, don't worry, it will definitely settle. Those law firms wouldn't know the inside of a courtroom if they stumbled into it...they don't litigate anything...they're just churn and burn operations.

Hey Klayfish, we were talking about something involving insurance a few days ago and you seem like the guy to ask. If someone sues an insurance company looking for a bigger payout for an accident case, does that make it more difficult to get insured later? I see those silly commercials where they say "I was taking my dog to the dentist and BAM! I got hit by a car. The Hammer got me 2.5 million dollars!". I always think, yeah you got a couple mil but can you get insured now? Probably not. What say you?

 

[Klayfish]

Hey Klayfish, we were talking about something involving insurance a few days ago and you seem like the guy to ask. If someone sues an insurance company looking for a bigger payout for an accident case, does that make it more difficult to get insured later? I see those silly commercials where they say "I was taking my dog to the dentist and BAM! I got hit by a car. The Hammer got me 2.5 million dollars!". I always think, yeah you got a couple mil but can you get insured now? Probably not. What say you?

I know it's a technicality, but remember, it's not the insurance company that the ambulance chaser sues, it's the policyholder...the insurance company isn't a named defendant in the suit (there are exceptions, but that's a different discussion). Those advertisements are also extremely misleading...extremely. It's very, very rare that an ambulance chaser gets a case that has any true value to it. Like I said before, they wouldn't know the inside of a courtroom if their lives depended on it. I guarantee you that in those cases they advertise where they got "2 million dollars", that case was farmed out to a real lawyer and the ambulance chaser just rode the coat tails. Literally 99% of the cases the ambulance chasing firms get are ones where the person isn't really injured, but they get sent to a phony chiro and the case settles for under $50k, usually far less. Plus, the client themselves actually pockets very little of that money. For example, if the case settled for $50k, the client themselves only walks away with roughly $2000-$4000, the attorney and chiro split the rest. To get $1M or even $500k, you need to be badly injured...as in dead, or stay in the hospital for days/weeks with surgeries, weeks/months of rehab, have truly permanent impairment, etc... And even then most private individuals don't carry $1M in liability coverage, so that becomes an issue in those cases.

To answer your question, yes, it can make it more difficult to obtain insurance. Records of accidents are kept on an insurance database which 98% of insurance carriers subscribe to and have access to. On a side note, this is the same database where that horrid monstrosity known as Carfax gets a lot of their data. When you go to buy an insurance policy, the carrier is going to check to see if you have a history of claims. The final settlement amount is rarely listed in that database, so the insurance company won't really know if it's a $2k settlement or a $2M settlement, but they'll know you made a claim. If you have a history of making a lot of what appear to be frivolous claims, or have a lot of at fault accidents, it's not good.

 

[tvguy]

We're dealing with the same thing. Minor accident, no airbags, no tow trick, very minor repairs to our smaller vehicle.... almost over a year ago and we just got a court summons delivered to our home. Thankfully our insurance is handling everything and we have very high coverage. After talking to the person handling the claim, we were told the person had already received over $15,000 from our insurance. Makes me sick to my stomach....

It is a vicious cycle. People know if they make noise they will get some cash from the insurance company to "go away". And insurance companies know if they don't cough up some cash, it could cost them 10 times as much, even if they prevail in court.
Bottom line is, the insurance companies don't pay the final tab for this, all of us policyholders do in the form of higher premiums.

 

[Marchand63]

The back of my insurance card says in bold writing: If you are in an accident DO NOT ADMIT FAULT. So they are instructing people to lie. That doesn't sit well with me.

No they are instructing people to shut up. Don't babble at the scene. Just like your lawyer would do if you were Mirandized.

 

[sasywtch]

I finally got my internet/cable back. 2 weeks without, I don't know what I did before. Anyway, my exH was driving on snowy slippery roads in OK and came to a stop at a light. The guy behind, driving too close for the conditions hit him in the rear, turned x's car around and hit him again in the front. Police cited the rear end driver for driving too close in the conditions. Our insurance picked us up within a hour and drove us to get a rental, towed our car to a close fix it place etc.
On the weekend, exH had a couple beers while him and friend working outside and gets a call from other driver's insurance. He starts blabbering to them. Next thing I know, our insurance is saying they are paying the other guy out as it was determined to be my x's fault. We had to pay our deductable. Police reports do not matter and #2 this is the reason why you don't talk to their insurance company and let your own insurance handle it.

 

[Klayfish]

I finally got my internet/cable back. 2 weeks without, I don't know what I did before. Anyway, my exH was driving on snowy slippery roads in OK and came to a stop at a light. The guy behind, driving too close for the conditions hit him in the rear, turned x's car around and hit him again in the front. Police cited the rear end driver for driving too close in the conditions. Our insurance picked us up within a hour and drove us to get a rental, towed our car to a close fix it place etc.
On the weekend, exH had a couple beers while him and friend working outside and gets a call from other driver's insurance. He starts blabbering to them. Next thing I know, our insurance is saying they are paying the other guy out as it was determined to be my x's fault. We had to pay our deductable. Police reports do not matter and #2 this is the reason why you don't talk to their insurance company and let your own insurance handle it.

Police reports DO matter, to some degree, and it's actually very poor advice to say don't talk to their insurance company...you could very well be shooting yourself in the foot.

Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh, but that story you told has more to it...perhaps it's things you weren't aware of or just didn't understand, but I can tell you that if you're ex is just sitting there at a light not moving, they wouldn't be found at fault no matter what he said.

 

[havaneselover]

I had jury duty Thursday. It was a civil case (I’m allowed to discuss it) and a man was suing a woman for six figures for a fender bender. Photos showed very minor damage. The woman had plead guilty to following too closely. He drove his car home and only sought medical attention the next day. Anyway his medical bills were $26k (basically for headaches and he found a doctor who got paid $1000/hour as an expert to say he may have suffered a mild concussion when he hit his head on the headrest). He got his medical bills covered plus some. What confused me was why the insurance company hadn’t settled it. Anyway now I’m paranoid about how much trouble a minor accident can cause.