FASTPASS Return Times to Be Enforced Beginning March 7

[TisBit]

I don't understand where the problem comes in????? Why is it so difficult to adhere to the FP time frame? If you don't want to ride at the time stated on your FP, go back later and get one that falls into your schedule, OR wait in the stand by line!!!!!!!

I look at it like keeping any reservation or appointment. When I have a ticket for a movie or show, or any ticketed event, I show up at the time stated on the ticket. I would NEVER show up on Tuesday for an event that I had a Monday ticket for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not trying to step on toes, but could the "I can show up anytime I like" attitude be one reason Disney started charging for no shows for ADRs?!?!?!?

Here is the problem that I see with the current system. When you get a toy story fastpass at 10 am for a 6 pm return, you don't know what is going to be happening at 6pm for your party. If will be at a show, the other side of the park, etc. So, you have to return between 6-7 pm, you get out of a show and it is 6:20 (you went in when your return window wasn't open), now you head to your "scheduled" ride and on the way you see that Star Tours has a 20 minute wait, so you jump in line. Turns out a ton of people just entered the line and it is really a 30-40 minute wait now, you are now going to miss your fast pass return window (because it is too short IMO). Your only other option is to bypass everything and go straight to Toy Story and now criss cross the park again to get back to where you left off your touring.

When you have small kids and how much walking you do, it is crazy to have to stop everything to make this "appointment". Even dinner reservations are billed only at the most popular restaurants where people make reservations with no intention of coming back for them.

It is one of the big complaints about being the "enhanced FP system" where you might make reservations for a ride days in advance, at one point is there park touring left. If you have rigid short return windows it will create an issue.

I also suspect that the FP system will be modified with this change and more FP's will be issued, with the understanding that a certain percentage will not return within their window. This will be like the hotel/airline/dining overbooking theory. So in essence, if a high percentage showed up, your wait time could be worse than the current system.

 

[Wendy&Grumpy]

Yes, so basically it is a wash.

You wouldn't say that if you were one of the 200 standby guests who had to wait more than an hour.

The fact of the matter is that it is no the majority of fast pass users that wait until the end of the day to use their fast passes as many people try to say.

So you agree that the majority of guests don't have any problem using FPs the way they're intended to be used.

Here is the problem that I see with the current system. When you get a toy story fastpass at 10 am for a 6 pm return, you don't know what is going to be happening at 6pm for your party.

Of course you do. It's called deciding what's important to your family and planning for it. If TSM is important to your family, you get your FP and you plan to be there during your FP window. As you've said above, most FP users can manage it, why can't you?

When you have small kids and how much walking you do, it is crazy to have to stop everything to make this "appointment".

Then don't do it. Don't even get FPs if they're too much hassle for your family.

We've used FPs some trips and not used them others and we have made just as many great memories without them as we have with!

 

[zumfelde]

I just don't understand why people just can't use their fastpass the way it was intended. You know what time your fastpass will be for BEFORE you get it so if you don't like the time just don't get one. If Disney would never have let people get away with abusing the system from the start this would not be a issue. I don't understand why some people feel they can just do whatever they want.

 

[DizCaptain]

I just don't understand why people just can't use their fastpass the way it was intended. You know what time your fastpass will be for BEFORE you get it so if you don't like the time just don't get one. If Disney would never have let people get away with abusing the system from the start this would not be a issue. I don't understand why some people feel they can just do whatever they want.

If I felt I could do whatever I wanted to, I'd just hop right on up to the front of the line. Every system there is is "abused" somehow. My big thing is: ok I have a fastpass for 1 o'clock at Rock N' Roller Coaster. Its 9 AM and I go about my business riding Star Tours, Great Movie Ride, etc. Its now 12:30 PM I see the time for Tower of Terror says its only a 30 minute wait. What the heck, I'll get out just in time for my window to start. NOPE. At this point its 1:30 and I'm not even inside yet, but I've already invested an hour waiting in line. I am not going to get out of line just to meet an hour time slot after waiting an hour+ for this ride. I get off ToT around 2:15, and head on over and cool, I'm let in. Strictly following the system however, I'd be denied entry after all that. I just think its kind of crummy to do that. I mean what happens, happens, but until I see how it works, I'm still really hesitant about this whole thing.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

DizCaptain,

You are presenting very reasonable arguments but they will have no impact on people who see everything only in black and white or think all deeds done outside of these confines are somehow nefarious.

Back to the topic, Disney has had FP for how long and haven't bothered to concern themselves with this 'rule breaking' until now. Are they suddenly finding concern for the poor, tired guest? Nah, as I said earlier, the are simply positioning themselves for another, future move that will be cash productive. I guarantee it.

 

[nytimez]

Why is such simple math so hard to understand?

I guess the math isn't as simple as it appears since you don't seem be understanding it.

The later standby ride is no more inconvenienced than he would have been had the FP rider arrived on time. The FP holder is still just one body. He would have the effect of one person in line whether he arrived five minutes before the standby rider or five hours before.

 

[tjkraz]

The later standby ride is no more inconvenienced than he would have been had the FP rider arrived on time. The FP holder is still just one body. He would have the effect of one person in line whether he arrived five minutes before the standby rider or five hours before.

True but there are more variables involved than just the one FP ticket holder.

If FASTPASS usage increases in the early hours, it is likely to change guest reactions to the standby line. If standby at noon is 30 minutes now for attraction "X", it stands to reason that the wait time would grow if early-day FP traffic increases. But there's no reason to think that the exact same volume of people will enter the standby queue if it has grown to 40 or 45 minutes at noon as a result of the policy change. There is a population of guests who is willing to wait 30 minutes but not 45 minutes.

Meanwhile some guests are certain to become more selective about taking FPs in the first place, while others will go to greater lengths to return in the posted window. And any late-day logjam may be lessened.

Theme park guest traffic is an incredibly complex system. We cannot simply assume that everyone would react identically following such a policy change. It isn't as simple as the theoretical one FP holder arriving between 12:10 and 1:10pm instead of at 8pm, with all other variables staying the same.

 

[nytimez]

True but there are more variables involved than just the one FP ticket holder.

If FASTPASS usage increases in the early hours, it is likely to change guest reactions to the standby line. If standby at noon is 30 minutes now for attraction "X", it stands to reason that the wait time would grow if early-day FP traffic increases. But there's no reason to think that the exact same volume of people will enter the standby queue if it has grown to 40 or 45 minutes at noon as a result of the policy change. There is a population of guests who is willing to wait 30 minutes but not 45 minutes.

Meanwhile some guests are certain to become more selective about taking FPs in the first place, while others will go to greater lengths to return in the posted window. And any late-day logjam may be lessened.

Theme park guest traffic is an incredibly complex system. We cannot simply assume that everyone would react identically following such a policy change. It isn't as simple as the theoretical one FP holder arriving between 12:10 and 1:10pm instead of at 8pm, with all other variables staying the same.

A person is a person is a person -- who will occupy the space of one person whenever they arrive. Unless the FP's seat is specifically held and then sent on the ride empty due to the late FP arrival AND the person arrives late and gets to use the FP anyway, it will not have an impact and s/he cannot increase or decrease any supposed logjam.

 

[tjkraz]

A person is a person is a person -- who will occupy the space of one person whenever they arrive.

Correct. But what can--and does--change is how others respond to the presence or absence of that guest at any given point in time.

 

[nytimez]

Correct. But what can--and does--change is how others respond to the presence or absence of that guest at any given point in time.

You're veering off into the hypothetical -- and what can't be proved one way or the other.

 

[tjkraz]

Nothing hypothetical about it.

Convince me that you make the exact same touring decisions when you see a 30 minute standby for Buzz (or any other FP attraction) as you do at 40+ minutes.

We all constantly alter our plans on the fly based upon a variety of factors. Changing the return patterns of FP holders would have a trickle down effect on standby, too.

 

[buzzCMlightyear]

It might give you insight into how many people use FPs late vs on time, but no matter where you stand the math is still the same.

There really isn't any math to consider. I've seen the line for BUZZ go from a 20 minute wait to an hour wait, with no outdoor queue, in a matter of seconds, with a majority of the fastpasses outside of the times.


Question: Do most DISers know what our ratio we use is?

 

[nytimez]

Nothing hypothetical about it.

Convince me that you make the exact same touring decisions when you see a 30 minute standby for Buzz (or any other FP attraction) as you do at 40+ minutes.

We all constantly alter our plans on the fly based upon a variety of factors. Changing the return patterns of FP holders would have a trickle down effect on standby, too.

Now you're getting silly. And how am I to convince you of that? Not even I know what I might do at any given time on any given day in the park. This is the very definition of hypothetical.

There really isn't any math to consider. I've seen the line for BUZZ go from a 20 minute wait to an hour wait, with no outdoor queue, in a matter of seconds, with a majority of the fastpasses outside of the times.

Sorry, but you lost all credibility there. Buzz loads 100 rides per 3 minutes. To go from 20 minutes to an hour, you'd need close to 1,400 people all showing up at once. While I can believe you might actually get big crowds showing up at once say, after the parade, I don't believe that you're going to get a majority of 1,400 people all showing up late at once with late FPs.

Sorry. I don't buy it.

Secondly, even if I did buy it, those 1,400 people would not have magically evaporated in the doorway had they shown up on time. They would have gone into the line, waited for the ride, occupied and seat and gone through the ride.

They would have had the impact of 1,400 people in line. Just because they came at different times does not change the impact they would have -- a person in line is a person in line is a person in line, and 1,400 people will cause all who comes after them to wait for the equivalent of 1,400 people no matter when they arrived.

If I arrive at 5 pm, and 10,000 people have ridden the ride before me that day, it doesn't matter if those 1,400 people came at different times throughout the day or if they all came at 4:59. I'm still the 10,000th person in line and will ride accordingly.

The only way it impacts me is if some of those 1,400 people come even later than 5 pm -- in which case I get to ride earlier than I "should" have.

 

[buzzCMlightyear]

Sorry, but you lost all credibility there. Buzz loads 100 rides per 3 minutes. To go from 20 minutes to an hour, you'd need close to 1,400 people all showing up at once. While I can believe you might actually get big crowds showing up at once say, after the parade, I don't believe that you're going to get a majority of 1,400 people all showing up late at once with late FPs.

Sorry. I don't buy it.

Secondly, even if I did buy it, those 1,400 people would not have magically evaporated in the doorway had they shown up on time. They would have gone into the line, waited for the ride, occupied and seat and gone through the ride.

They would have had the impact of 1,400 people in line. Just because they came at different times does not change the impact they would have -- a person in line is a person in line is a person in line, and 1,400 people will cause all who comes after them to wait for the equivalent of 1,400 people no matter when they arrived.

If I arrive at 5 pm, and 10,000 people have ridden the ride before me that day, it doesn't matter if those 1,400 people came at different times throughout the day or if they all came at 4:59. I'm still the 10,000th person in line and will ride accordingly.

The only way it impacts me is if some of those 1,400 people come even later than 5 pm -- in which case I get to ride earlier than I "should" have.

It loads MAX 202(204 including wheelchair car) people every 5 minutes, plus slows and stops for parties needing special assistance. A lot of people are singles in the cars. More than you would think.

And the fastpass line for the times I mentions, that I have seen more than just once, are all the way to the entrance of TLF. Let me give you a better example than yours.

I won't get into any stupid arguments on here, but I'll just say, from a CM perspective, from working and using FP, the enforcement is a good thing.

 

[Wendy&Grumpy]

If I arrive at 5 pm, and 10,000 people have ridden the ride before me that day, it doesn't matter if those 1,400 people came at different times throughout the day or if they all came at 4:59. I'm still the 10,000th person in line and will ride accordingly.

The only way it impacts me is if some of those 1,400 people come even later than 5 pm -- in which case I get to ride earlier than I "should" have.

That thinking is about as black and white as it gets.

Of course it matters.

FP holders are boarded before standby guests.

The discussion being had here pertains to *late* FP users, not the on-time users who are expected and accounted for in posted wait times.

If you get in the standy line at 5:00 with a 20 minute posted wait time and 1400 late FP users get in the FP line at 5:01, you are going to become rider 11,400 and your wait is going to go from 20 minutes to *much* longer. (Alternatively, if 400 of the 1400 were on-time users, you would become rider 11,000 and still ride much later, although not as much later.)

If those 1400 FP users had come at different times throughout the day, *before 5:00* they would have no bearing on your wait time because they would already be through the queue and gone and therefore have absolutely no bearing on the posted 20 minute wait.

 

[nytimez]

If those 1400 FP users had come at different times throughout the day, *before 5:00* they would have no bearing on your wait time because they would already be through the queue and gone and therefore have absolutely no bearing on the posted 20 minute wait.

Again, they do not magically disappear in the doorway. Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean they didn't go onto the ride. They were there and they had a residual effect on the ride throughout the day. Doesn't matter when they came -- it just matters that they came before you.

 

[doconeill]

That thinking is about as black and white as it gets.

Of course it matters.

FP holders are boarded before standby guests.

The discussion being had here pertains to *late* FP users, not the on-time users who are expected and accounted for in posted wait times.

If you get in the standy line at 5:00 with a 20 minute posted wait time and 1400 late FP users get in the FP line at 5:01, you are going to become rider 11,400 and your wait is going to go from 20 minutes to *much* longer. (Alternatively, if 400 of the 1400 were on-time users, you would become rider 11,000 and still ride much later, although not as much later.)

If those 1400 FP users had come at different times throughout the day, *before 5:00* they would have no bearing on your wait time because they would already be through the queue and gone.

Ah, but they would still have had an effect, in that the wait time of the standby line would have been longer at the time they entered, those 1400 FP users were there earlier. This does assume that everyone still gets in the standby line regardless of how the wait time changed, and it didn't pass someone's breaking point to get in the line. And that the standby line never empties, which generally doesn't happen on the attractions we are talking about.

Say things remain constant though the day, and the wait time is 30 minutes. But those 1400 FP users suddenly decide not to show up...the wait time drops to say 15 minutes, and then stays at 15 minutes. Then they finally show up - and it's back to 30 after they do.

The difference is that those in the standby line saw a 15 minute wait time on the clock, but it ended up being 30 minutes. Instead of seeing the 30 minute wait time if the 1400 showed up on time. They of course don't know that it was 15 minutes for all the other people ahead of them because of those 1400, but certainly they don't likely care about those people either.

This is why I've always called it a perception problem, and very akin to the physics problems that involve "frame of reference".

The real culprit? Those wait time clocks. They are always subject to wild perturbations for a number of reasons (see a BTG get in the standby queue? Don't bet on that wait time being accurate...)

I now believe Disney could have fixed all of this by inflating the advertised wait times so that the true wait time is always less. Then everyone comes out ahead

 

[diamondpixienc]

Finally! I love it. BTW the CM are probably being trained to say "Respect My Authority!" in their best Cartman voice.

 

[vickivale]

I actually asked a Cast Member about this two weeks ago. The person I spoke with told us this is not true, that they will still honor the FASTPASS if you come later than your time. So who knows...?

 

[tjkraz]

Now you're getting silly. And how am I to convince you of that? Not even I know what I might do at any given time on any given day in the park. This is the very definition of hypothetical.

You're right...it was hypothetical because we both know that guests take standby wait times into account when making touring decisions. Any changes in said times will have an immediate impact on guests response to that attraction.

Disney ride queues aren't assembly lines. They are subject to the whims of tens-of-thousands of free thinking guests who will tailor their responses to the posted times.

More FASTPASS returnees in the early morning hours means higher standby times. Higher standby times means some guests will choose a different path than they would have otherwise chosen with a shorter return time.