Fastpass Enforcement coming?

[mom2rtk]

I've been in and out of this thread a lot.

Did anyone ever say how they KNEW there were people in front of them using LATE fp's? I keep asking but haven't seen an answer. I remember a thread months ago with someone commenting on a BTG using some late, and I can almost see the point there, but honestly am not convinced yet that problem WILL be addressed with this change.

Other reports of knowing how the "long" line in front of you was caused by late fp's????

You all must have x-ray vision or something.

 

[KellyNY]

What does official info and intent of design have to do with each other?

There is no "official info" on the intent of Fastpass. No one really doubts that they wanted to get people out of the lines and into the shops, but I don't see it posted anywhere on the official site either.

Nothing, but then why it is important how reliable CM was then? What was intent of putting it here? What that story was suppose to show anyway?

 

[WillAustin]

I thought logic is a natural ability, who knew...

But, your posts haven't been logical.

You wouldn't be able to tell who was using them late. And even if you could, you can't confidently project your personal experiences onto what might be happening on other days. Anecdotal evidence is unverifiable.

Whether it's true or not, you make too many assumptions to get to your conclusions.

I've been in and out of this thread a lot.

Did anyone ever say how they KNEW there were people in front of them using LATE fp's? I keep asking but haven't seen an answer. I remember a thread months ago with someone commenting on a BTG using some late, and I can almost see the point there, but honestly am not convinced yet that problem WILL be addressed with this change.

Other reports of knowing how the "long" line in front of you was caused by late fp's????

You all must have x-ray vision or something.

Certainly. If the FP line is significantly longer at 7:45pm than it was at 1pm, it doesn't mean that most of those in the later line are outside their return window.

 

[doconeill]

Nothing, but then why it is important how reliable CM was then? What was intent of putting it here? What that story was suppose to show anyway?

I'm not entirely understanding what you are saying.

What I was posting about was when someone said what the intent of Fastpass return window was, and I countered that they don't know what the intent actually was since they weren't the designer or had info from the designer, and that we had at least one report, from a reasonably reliable source, from the designer as to why there was a window.

Feel free to keep posting to the contrary if you choose, however. We've got a lot of pages to go before the thread gets locked.

 

[KellyNY]

I've been in and out of this thread a lot.

Did anyone ever say how they KNEW there were people in front of them using LATE fp's? I keep asking but haven't seen an answer. I remember a thread months ago with someone commenting on a BTG using some late, and I can almost see the point there, but honestly am not convinced yet that problem WILL be addressed with this change.

Other reports of knowing how the "long" line in front of you was caused by late fp's????

You all must have x-ray vision or something.

Are you suggesting that something you don't see can't hurt you? I do not need to KNOW who is using late FP or how many, all I need to KNOW that even one late FP affects me, that is all. Was I lucky not to have anyone in front of me using late FP or not does not change concept.

 

[Reddog1134]

I've been in and out of this thread a lot.

Did anyone ever say how they KNEW there were people in front of them using LATE fp's? I keep asking but haven't seen an answer. I remember a thread months ago with someone commenting on a BTG using some late, and I can almost see the point there, but honestly am not convinced yet that problem WILL be addressed with this change.

Other reports of knowing how the "long" line in front of you was caused by late fp's????

You all must have x-ray vision or something.

It's a well known fact that all late FP users show their pass to everyone in the standby line and jump up and down yelling "I got in with a late pass. SUCKERS!!!"

 

[KellyNY]

I've been in and out of this thread a lot.

Did anyone ever say how they KNEW there were people in front of them using LATE fp's? I keep asking but haven't seen an answer. I remember a thread months ago with someone commenting on a BTG using some late, and I can almost see the point there, but honestly am not convinced yet that problem WILL be addressed with this change.

Other reports of knowing how the "long" line in front of you was caused by late fp's????

You all must have x-ray vision or something.

Are you suggesting that something you don't see can't hurt you? I do not need to KNOW who is using late FP or how many, all I need to KNOW that even one late FP affects me, that is all. Was I lucky not to have anyone in front of me using late FP or not does not change concept.

 

[doconeill]

But, your posts haven't been logical.

You wouldn't be able to tell who was using them late. And even if you could, you can't confidently project your personal experiences onto what might be happening on other days. Anecdotal evidence is unverifiable.

Whether it's true or not, you make too many assumptions to get to your conclusions.

Let's back up here Will...

Some of Kelly's argument IS logical. However over the many posts, I think there has been some loss over what the argument was...

As with all the arguments, there are certain assumptions.

Kelly argued that IF one uses a Fastpass late, and gets in the line immediately before her when she uses the FP on time, then it is affecting her. The more people who happen to do it, the more it affects her.

This is ACTUALLY TRUE. I have not argued otherwise.

My counter to the argument is that the effect is small (unless the numbers are LARGE), and also temporary (until the FP line empties again). So yes, Kelly get's affected.

Now whether Kelly can necessarily know it's because of a late FP, or it just seems that way because a large group got in line in front of her and they may in fact all be on time, is a different matter.

 

[doconeill]

Are you suggesting that something you don't see can't hurt you? I do not need to KNOW who is using late FP or how many, all I need to KNOW that even one late FP affects me, that is all. Was I lucky not to have anyone in front of me using late FP or not does not change concept.

Ah, but as I explained, a person using a late FP only affects you if they used it before you and the FP line didn't empty in between. If it did empty, then there is no longer any effect to delay you on when you get on via the FP line.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Speculation of intent is moot at this point.

Attempting to make this a question of morality is pointless.

The facts are FP's have a printed time window & Disney does not enforce the expiration time. Why? Who cares.

I acknowledge that my late use of fastpass may have an impact on the people in the standby line at the time. Is it significant? Probably not. It would take about 35 people using late FP's to add an additional minute in wait time to the standby line at Space Mtn. So if 100 people came late to SM while you're in line that's another 3 minutes, is that significant?

However, if you were in line earlier in the day those 100 people coming late saved you 3 minutes. Every time I ride a FP ride early in the day my wait may be slightly shorter thanks to those who choose not to use there FP's during that time. Later in the day my wait may be slightly longer. In the end it could all average out. It really depends on how you tour the parks.

 

[doconeill]

Can someone remind me of something? If a part closes at say 9pm, what happens to the Fastpasses when the return time reaches 8pm? Do they stop issuing the FPs once the window would carry past the park closing? Or do they issue for "8:05pm-9:00pm", etc.?

I'm actually trying to work on writing a simulator, but it is actually quite a difficult thing to do...I may just give up since things are changing anyways...

 

[KellyNY]

But, your posts haven't been logical.

You wouldn't be able to tell who was using them late. And even if you could, you can't confidently project your personal experiences onto what might be happening on other days. Anecdotal evidence is unverifiable.

Whether it's true or not, you make too many assumptions to get to your conclusions.

.

I am not making assumptions, I show real life scenerios, assumptions are made in Zero Sum theory, working ONLY IF all conditions met. I am making a statement and only one, Late FP is an extra person entering line he is not suppose to be in right now and he slowing me down, can you possibly show me how I am not correct?
I mean actually showing and not just telling me I am wrong. I took time to proove Zero Sum wrong, can you show me how I am wrong.

 

[WillAustin]

Let's back up here Will...

Some of Kelly's argument IS logical. However over the many posts, I think there has been some loss over what the argument was...

As with all the arguments, there are certain assumptions.

Kelly argued that IF one uses a Fastpass late, and gets in the line immediately before her when she uses the FP on time, then it is affecting her. The more people who happen to do it, the more it affects her.

This is ACTUALLY TRUE. I have not argued otherwise.

My counter to the argument is that the effect is small (unless the numbers are LARGE), and also temporary (until the FP line empties again). So yes, Kelly get's affected.

Now whether Kelly can necessarily know it's because of a late FP, or it just seems that way because a large group got in line in front of her and they may in fact all be on time, is a different matter.

I agree the effect is small, but it's mostly perception, and still fits in the overall ebb and flow of the dynamic line. Showing up at a ride 10 seconds behind a tour group has a much larger perceived effect. I still have a hard time believing that hundreds or even dozens of FP users are showing up at a single attraction at generally the same time every night outside their windows.

And unless I check everyone in front of us, I'd have no idea if the majority of them are using a FP outside the window. None of us know how many FPs are given out or how that number might dynamically change based on the crowd forecasts over the entire day.

 

[mcd2745]

I'm not entirely understanding what you are saying.

What I was posting about was when someone said what the intent of Fastpass return window was, and I countered that they don't know what the intent actually was since they weren't the designer or had info from the designer, and that we had at least one report, from a reasonably reliable source, from the designer as to why there was a window.

Feel free to keep posting to the contrary if you choose, however. We've got a lot of pages to go before the thread gets locked.

But I never said what the intent of FP was (or even what I thought the intent was). We are all pretty much in agreement that the intent was to get people off lines with the expecatation that it would lead to increased guest spending. So I merely suggested that it likely wasn't their intent (specifically with regards to allowing late/expired FPs) to have people making the use of expired FPs an integral part of their touring strategies - because that, it seems to me, works against what we all agree was the intent of FP. That's a big difference.

 

[Colleen27]

Are you suggesting that something you don't see can't hurt you? I do not need to KNOW who is using late FP or how many, all I need to KNOW that even one late FP affects me, that is all. Was I lucky not to have anyone in front of me using late FP or not does not change concept.

It hurts you if and only if you're getting in line behind that person, rather than ahead of someone who if they'd returned on time would have been in front of you. You're basically arguing that it doesn't matter that someone else got to ride a little faster, all that matters is that you encountered a longer line than you should have. But what you're missing is that FP doesn't exist to make your (or any other specific guest's) wait time as short as possible; it exists to manage overall traffic flow at the most popular attractions, and from that perspective late use is a zero sum game that has no detrimental effect.

 

[MELSMICE]

So.........say I pull a FP for between 1-2 p.m. A few hours later another guest (say Kelly, just to give the guest a name) pulls a FP for 4-5 p.m.

I return with my FP late & show up at 4:10 p.m. Kelly returns during her window at 4:15 p.m. Even if I would have returned during my assigned time frame I am still ahead of Kelly in line.

It seems that the only way my FP wouldn't affect her at all is if I choose to use it after her FP return time.

Also, say that 500 people can get a FP for each one hour window. The only way you can guarantee that 499 people aren't ahead of you is if you show up precisely at the time your window begins. Unless, of course, 500 people from the window before yours get in line right at the end of their window!

Which leads me to my point...........does it really matter & who cares!

 

[BNM]

Consider the effect that Disallowing late FP will have. I will still be collecting FP, and many others will as well. There will be a number of those that I won't be able to use, thereby making those FP unavailable to others. But of course, it would be WRONG to do that. I should be able to plan to be back to use that pass, right? Or I'm just beyond help, hopelessly disorganized, right?

Look, not everyone knows down to the hour where they are going to be in the parks at any given time. Maybe it gets crowded in one park and they hop to another for the afternoon, only to return in the evening. If you don't want to give up your FP you have to stay. Or maybe your three year old is melting down at 11 am instead of 1 pm. Too bad for you! Should have planned better if you want to use those FP!

A lot of people are saying you should be able to use late FP only if you have a good reason. Well, having a touring strategy that works for me and my family is a good enough reason, especially since it doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Disney is in the business of providing us with a fun vacation experience. I HOPE that Xpass will give us the flexibility we need. I hope it's an improvement over the current FP. Otherwise, what's the point?

I would argue that my current strategy of collecting FP in the am and using them in the pm after nap actually results in LESS overall use of FP. Because you can't collect them all at once, and you can't use them all at once either. So in the am often the FP machines won't be up until park opening, or after one hour of emh touring. So I can get a max of three FP, and maybe another one or two in the afternoon, but won't always need (or be able) to get those in the afternoon because I am seeing shows or using the previously collected FP. Late in the evening FP won't be needed if lines are short.

Compare this to the guest who collects FP all day long, and could get 8 or more. This will result in much more impact on standby lines; it has to.

 

[Reddog1134]

So.........say I pull a FP for between 1-2 p.m. A few hours later another guest (say Kelly, just to give the guest a name) pulls a FP for 4-5 p.m.

I return with my FP late & show up at 4:10 p.m. Kelly returns during her window at 4:15 p.m. Even if I would have returned during my assigned time frame I am still ahead of Kelly in line.

It seems that the only way my FP wouldn't affect her at all is if I choose to use it after her FP return time.

Also, say that 500 people can get a FP for each one hour window. The only way you can guarantee that 499 people aren't ahead of you is if you show up precisely at the time your window begins.

I think the argument is that the late user wouldn't be in line at all if late FPs were denied.

 

[WillAustin]

I am not making assumptions, I show real life scenerios, assumptions are made in Zero Sum theory, working ONLY IF all conditions met. I am making a statement and only one, Late FP is an extra person entering line he is not suppose to be in right now and he slowing me down, can you possibly show me how I am not correct?
I mean actually showing and not just telling me I am wrong. I took time to proove Zero Sum wrong, can you show me how I am wrong.

Where we disagree is on what actually matters. I'm arguing that one individual's experience in the line doesn't count for much when compared to the total number of people who go through the line every day.

I'd also argue that the effect becomes more important on rides that run at capacity most of the time because it affects more riders.

I agree that 100 people getting in line in front of you outside their window, would slow you, personally, down. Where take issue is the idea that the delay is significant and that it happens all the time. As a PP pointed out, even 100 people added in front of you doesn't add a large amount to your wait time.

The size of the FP line alone at any given time doesn't give any indication whatsoever of why it's long, short or empty. Even combining the facts that 1. a large number of people here say they collect FPs for later use, and 2. the anecdotal evidence shows the FP line is quite a bit longer at 7pm than it was at 2pm, you still have to make a leap to define one as the cause of the other.

I think the argument is that the late user wouldn't be in line at all if late FPs were denied.

I don't see the new policy cutting down on the number of FPs that are taken in any given timeframe. I think people will still get them.

If the goal was to collect FPs for later in the evening, someone could try to trade for a later time by returning to the ride during their window, and asking someone who is getting FPs to trade for theirs so they could ride immediately. If you planned it right and got a little lucky, you could have a whole stack ready for the end of the day. You could even let your family go back to the resort to swim or rest while you traded the FPs you got earlier for later times.

 

[doconeill]

So.........say I pull a FP for between 1-2 p.m. A few hours later another guest (say Kelly, just to give the guest a name) pulls a FP for 4-5 p.m.

I return with my FP late & show up at 4:10 p.m. Kelly returns during her window at 4:15 p.m. Even if I would have returned during my assigned time frame I am still ahead of Kelly in line.

It seems that the only way my FP wouldn't affect her at all is if I choose to use it after her FP return time.

Also, say that 500 people can get a FP for each one hour window. The only way you can guarantee that 499 people aren't ahead of you is if you show up precisely at the time your window begins.

How the FP line get's affect is different than how the standby line gets affected.

You are correct that you are in front of her in line, as you would have been if you used the FP earlier. But because the FP line empties regularly, it limits any effect someone using a FP has on another person using a FP.

The first person in the FP line gets on the attraction first, the second person second, and so on. When the line empties, they take from the standby line.

Let's say everyone used their FPs the first possible minute, and it was 10 people who have Fastpasses in each minute - and the capacity is more than 10. If I'm 10th in the FP line, I'm the 10th person that gets on, and after me, they take from the standby line again.

Now say someone didn't use their FP earlier, and show up in my minute, right before me. That person is now 10th, and now I'm 11th. I'm affected - one person further back in line. But still, t, they take all 11 of us and then take from the standby line.

In the next minute, 10 more people show up in the FP line. How were they affected by the person in the previous minute, given that they already took everyone from the FP line and it was empty?

Answer: they weren't affected at all. That's why the effects were limited.