Fastpass Enforcement coming?

[going/again]

How the FP line get's affect is different than how the standby line gets affected.

You are correct that you are in front of her in line, as you would have been if you used the FP earlier. But because the FP line empties regularly, it limits any effect someone using a FP has on another person using a FP.

The first person in the FP line gets on the attraction first, the second person second, and so on. When the line empties, they take from the standby line.

Let's say everyone used their FPs the first possible minute, and it was 10 people who have Fastpasses in each minute - and the capacity is more than 10. If I'm 10th in the FP line, I'm the 10th person that gets on, and after me, they take from the standby line again.

Now say someone didn't use their FP earlier, and show up in my minute, right before me. That person is now 10th, and now I'm 11th. I'm affected - one person further back in line. But still, t, they take all 11 of us and then take from the standby line.

In the next minute, 10 more people show up in the FP line. How were they affected by the person in the previous minute, given that they already took everyone from the FP line and it was empty?

Answer: they weren't affected at all. That's why the effects were limited.

So if the 10 that showed up in your minute rode thats 10 less from the standby line , now if another 10 then another 10, and so on.

I believe thats what Kelly is trying to say, and yes they were affected, by how much no one really knows but they were undeniably affected.

 

[scion5220]

And full circle again...

The effect on the standby line later is negated by the effect it had earlier. Yes, individual perceptions of when someone thought they'd get on the attraction changes based on believe of the standby wait time indicator. But that indicator would have been different if the late FP users had instead been on time. In the grand scheme, it is zero-sum, and for the amount it actually affects any one individual by, it's not a big deal.

However, as is abundantly clear from BOTH sides in these discussions...the effect of enforcement/no-enforcement on the INDIVIDUAL is what most people care about.

Won't the grand scheme zero-sum effect be the same WITH enforcement of the times as well...the line will be shifted around throughout the day as FPs are used. What WILL be affected is the "touring" experience of INDIVIDUAL people for better or worse.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Pretty obvious what the intent was, its printed on the fastpass its self return between whatever the time says. not exactly rocket science is it

Once again, who cares about original intent. Social engineering at it's finest, print it and they will comply.

The gist here is those who followed the printed windows, or felt that others who didn't are rule breakers, feel some kind of vindication by the new rules of enforcement. Others feel their experience was ruined by the allowance of late FP use despite the lack of credible evidence. I'm not arguing that there was no impact, but gosh, the 4 hours we spent in lines today could have been 3:56 if it hadn't been for the late FP'ers.

 

[ses1230]

Pretty obvious what the intent was, its printed on the fastpass its self return between whatever the time says. not exactly rocket science is it

Sure they want you to return at that time, but no where does it say that late arrivals won't be accepted. If it was a hard and fast rule it would state so. It is presumably printed there because the vast majority of people will return at the stated time.

 

[KellyNY]

And full circle again...

The effect on the standby line later is negated by the effect it had earlier. Yes, individual perceptions of when someone thought they'd get on the attraction changes based on believe of the standby wait time indicator. But that indicator would have been different if the late FP users had instead been on time. In the grand scheme, it is zero-sum, and for the amount it actually affects any one individual by, it's not a big deal.

Full circle indeed. Am I arguing overall or individual affect?

And again, who put late FPer in charge to decide if it is important or not to me and they can build their perfect vacation at my expense?

How big affect overall again KNOWN only to Disney and this is completely separate story, which may include extra money spend which btw will eventually hit you and me in higher admission price.

Saying that effect on me is minimal is simply attempt to justify late FP use, nothing else.

 

[going/again]

Once again, who cares about original intent.

many on here by the no of posts, me just waiting for the footy to start.

 

[doconeill]

So if the 10 that showed up in your minute rode thats 10 less from the standby line , now if another 10 then another 10, and so on.

You've lost me. For starters, I was explaining why the effect on the Fastpass line is limited, not the standby line. And the "10 that showed up in my minute"? Well, that was me and 9 others on time, plus 1 who was late. So I'm not sure where you were going with the "another 10 then another 10".

The details of how the FP line is affected don't change when increasing the numbers, other than how far back others in the FP line get pushed back, until you reach the capacity of the cycle of the attraction. Keeping the numbers low, if the capacity is 20, and there are 10 FPs issued per cycle, and 20 or more people show up in the FP line, then the FP line won't completely empty, and the FP line won't empty as quickly and the effects last longer. But it still needs to empty out at some point, because the FP issue rate MUST be less than the capacity of the attraction. If it doesn't empty in normal operations, they are issuing too many FPs. And for late FP users to have any extended effect on the line, then they must be used late at a rate that is at or exceeds the difference between the capacity and the issue rate - in the example above, the issue rate is 50%, so 50+% would have to use their FPs late to cause an extended effect - and we have no reason to believe it is anywhere close to that.

If it was an 80% issue rate, then it would have to be 20% of late FP use.

I've never seen actual issue rates, but I've heard numbers all over the place.

Now here's another factor for thought. FPs are issued with a 1 hour window. Say they are issued on 5 minute cycles, as is typical. And we've got our crappy slow-loader running at 20 guests per cycle, and a 50% issue rate. So we issue 10 FPs for a starting window of noon, 10 for a starting window of 12:05pm, etc.

For any given 5 minute cycle, we've actually got twelve times the number of FPs issues for that particular start time that are valid. That means that in any given cycle, we could potentially have 120 guests show up in the FP line in the same cycle. It would take 6 cycles - 30 minutes - just to empty out the FP line (if they didn't at least take some from the standby line at some ratio). That is a HUGE effect. And that is with every single one of them being within their window. It's even worse if the issue rate is higher.

As for the standby line...all covered before. 10 less people out of the standby line that cycle, yes - but 10 more were taken earlier.

 

[KellyNY]

As for the standby line...all covered before. 10 less people out of the standby line that cycle, yes - but 10 more were taken earlier.

Which again means nothing for someone joining the line now and may not even be true at all considering that rides do not operate to full capacity first few hours, for which hours those FPs were for.

 

[NLD]

And again, who put late FPer in charge to decide if it is important or not to me and they can build their perfect vacation at my expense?

But you don't know that people using late FP was ever at your expense!

Try this:

I pull a FP with a return window of 1:00-2:00 pm. Typically a time of day when crowds and lines are at their worst.

I decide (for whatever reason) to use my FP later in the day... say 7:00 pm.

If you get in the standby line at 1:30 pm, or you get in the FP line at 1:30 pm, you are getting an ADVANTAGE by me not being there at my appointed time.

Now, if you get in the line at 7:01 pm (1 minute after I get in the line with my late FP), then yes, I've set you back -1 in terms of how long you will wait in that line.

But until you can tell us that the number of times you were set back by individual late FPs OUTNUMBERS the number of times you were advantaged by late FPs, you just don't have a case. You just can't claim with any authority that late FPs were used at an expense to you personally.

In fact, as was pointed out, if you tend to return within your window... including getting in the FP line during midday peak crowds... you are likely to be netting an ADVANTAGE to your experience by the people who hold onto FP for later.

The truth is you don't know how late FP effected your overall experience. Maybe one time they made your line-wait time longer. Maybe one time they made your line-wait time shorter. You don't know overall how many times you were advantaged by late FP returns, and how many you were disadvantaged. So you really just don't know if, overall, late FPs had a detrimental effect on you.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Now here's another factor for thought. FPs are issued with a 1 hour window. Say they are issued on 5 minute cycles, as is typical. And we've got our crappy slow-loader running at 20 guests per cycle, and a 50% issue rate. So we issue 10 FPs for a starting window of noon, 10 for a starting window of 12:05pm, etc.

For any given 5 minute cycle, we've actually got twelve times the number of FPs issues for that particular start time that are valid. That means that in any given cycle, we could potentially have 120 guests show up in the FP line in the same cycle. It would take 6 cycles - 30 minutes - just to empty out the FP line (if they didn't at least take some from the standby line at some ratio). That is a HUGE effect. And that is with every single one of them being within their window. It's even worse if the issue rate is higher.

As for the standby line...all covered before. 10 less people out of the standby line that cycle, yes - but 10 more were taken earlier.

I think that the current percentage of capacity dedicated to FP is no where near 50% at this time (although I know you used it to make your point). I believe, however, that it is Disney's intention to increase the percentage of capacity dedicated to some type of timed entry. (Use Dumbo as an example) Your example displays why they need to reign in the use of late FP to better accommodate the future system.

BTW this is all speculation on my part and has no basis in fact, not even a bus drivers input.

 

[doconeill]

Saying that effect on me is minimal is simply attempt to justify late FP use, nothing else.

I'm saying it is mathematically minimal. How you perceive it to be is another matter, which is only up to you.

Let me repeat again: I do not use Fastpasses late. So I don't really need to justify anything for my own accord. I am simply explaining why overall the perceived inconvenience of a few mattered little in the overall scheme to Disney that they didn't see a need to stop allowing late FPs until the eve of introducing a new system where enforcement did really matter.

And since we're back at square one in our dance, I am bowing out our little square...

 

[scion5220]

But you don't know that people using late FP was ever at your expense!

Try this:

I pull a FP with a return window of 1:00-2:00 pm. Typically a time of day when crowds and lines are at their worst.

I decide (for whatever reason) to use my FP later in the day... say 7:00 pm.

If you get in the standby line at 1:30 pm, or you get in the FP line at 1:30 pm, you are getting an ADVANTAGE by me not being there at my appointed time.

Now, if you get in the line at 7:01 pm (1 minute after I get in the line with my late FP), then yes, I've set you back -1 in terms of how long you will wait in that line.

But until you can tell us that the number of times you were set back by individual late FPs OUTNUMBERS the number of times you were advantaged by late FPs, you just don't have a case. You just can't claim with any authority that late FPs were used at an expense to you personally.

In fact, as was pointed out, if you tend to return within your window... including getting in the FP line during midday peak crowds... you are likely to be netting an ADVANTAGE to your experience by the people who hold onto FP for later.

The truth is you don't know how late FP effected your overall experience. Maybe one time they made your line-wait time longer. Maybe one time they made your line-wait time shorter. You don't know overall how many times you were advantaged by late FP returns, and how many you were disadvantaged. So you really just don't know if, overall, late FPs had a detrimental effect on you.

But you know that your late use ADVANTAGED you, so you don't really care.

Isn't that the bottom line?

 

[WillAustin]

I'm saying it is mathematically minimal. How you perceive it to be is another matter, which is only up to you.

That's a good way to put it. I think possibly being delayed by a few minutes, even if they could perceive it, wouldn't bother a lot of people, myself included.

 

[Albytaps]

It's common sense that Disney wanted people out of the lines. Anything else is speculative. And we've already heard from a long-time DISer who knows the VP and one of the designers (and who I trust to be correct), who said that they put the window on the tickets because people needed to be told they had a range to return on in order to understand they didn't need to be there right away.

I'm glad I caught this because there are way too many pages to be sifting through to find this answer that people seem to not want to repeat. However, if that is completely the case, why would they state "Return Between" instead of "Return After" ? It's seems like false advertising or something.

 

[KellyNY]

But you don't know that people using late FP was ever at your expense!

Try this:

I pull a FP with a return window of 1:00-2:00 pm. Typically a time of day when crowds and lines are at their worst.

I decide (for whatever reason) to use my FP later in the day... say 7:00 pm.

If you get in the standby line at 1:30 pm, or you get in the FP line at 1:30 pm, you are getting an ADVANTAGE by me not being there at my appointed time.

Now, if you get in the line at 7:01 pm (1 minute after I get in the line with my late FP), then yes, I've set you back -1 in terms of how long you will wait in that line.

But until you can tell us that the number of times you were set back by individual late FPs OUTNUMBERS the number of times you were advantaged by late FPs, you just don't have a case. You just can't claim with any authority that late FPs were used at an expense to you personally.

In fact, as was pointed out, if you tend to return within your window... including getting in the FP line during midday peak crowds... you are likely to be netting an ADVANTAGE to your experience by the people who hold onto FP for later.

The truth is you don't know how late FP effected your overall experience. Maybe one time they made your line-wait time longer. Maybe one time they made your line-wait time shorter. You don't know overall how many times you were advantaged by late FP returns, and how many you were disadvantaged. So you really just don't know if, overall, late FPs had a detrimental effect on you.

But you know that your late use ADVANTAGED you, so you don't really care.

Isn't that the bottom line?

Perfectly said!

BTW, Do I have to proove how many times I personally or anyone in particular was affected, what a nonsense.

I'm saying it is mathematically minimal. How you perceive it to be is another matter, which is only up to you.

Let me repeat again: I do not use Fastpasses late. So I don't really need to justify anything for my own accord. I am simply explaining why overall the perceived inconvenience of a few mattered little in the overall scheme to Disney that they didn't see a need to stop allowing late FPs until the eve of introducing a new system where enforcement did really matter.

And since we're back at square one in our dance, I am bowing out our little square...

Math does not count when it comes to individual experience. And again, how small it is mathematically speaking is only KNOWN to Disney. As for inconvenience of few, more like many mathematically speaking again for the benefit of few.

 

[mel&me]

I am sure someone already posted this, I did not read entire thread.
My thought, it's fine to enforce it. don't have times and rules if you are not going to heed by it. May as well be just have the ride name and no time on it at all.

 

[KellyNY]

That's a good way to put it. I think possibly being delayed by a few minutes, even if they could perceive it, wouldn't bother a lot of people, myself included.

That is what late FPer counts on. In other words, delay exist, affect exist BUT lets hope nobody cares enough. Guess what, many don't and many do, no majority I or you can claim here.

 

[recmouse]

I can't believe this thread is still going on... wow... 95 pages!

 

[scion5220]

I can't believe this thread is still going on... wow... 95 pages!

 

[going/again]

You've lost me.

As for the standby line...all covered before. 10 less people out of the standby line that cycle, yes - but 10 more were taken earlier.

As for losing you, was responding to 1st line of your post.

As far as standby line goes anyone coming to the park in the afternoon has no idea who went before them, but if all those come back and use fastpasses after the allotted time that will affect them, like i said no one knows how much, but you and others on here seem unable to accept this.

FWIW this policy has no effect on me either way, as there are only half a dozen rides my wife can go on.