Fast Pass phasing out?!

[Malela9]

I am just back from WDW and had to make a trip to DL. I went on ToyStory Mania (which I had to wait for because there is no Fast Pass) and asked the CM why we don't have it here in Cali.
He told," Over the next year we are going to phase Fast Pass out." Gasp! I love FP! Anyone heard anything else about this?

 

[doconeill]

Didn't one of the heads of Disneyland try and get rid of Fastpass in that park a few years ago? I supposed it is more likely that would happen over in Disneyland, but I seriously doubt it will happen at WDW. It works, and it has stopped 2.5 hour wait times at Splash Mountain, etc.

 

[Padrepride]

I don't think that would be a good idea for Disney because I think it would decrease attendance for those people who don't want to wait in lines. I personally love Fastpass.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

Actually FastPass is a total failure based on the original intent.

First of all, part of the design of the Parks is that a certain percentage of the people will be in queues at all times. Since FP has fewer people in the queues, it makes the park appear more crowded than it actually is.

Second, they had expected that while people were waiting for their return time, they would be spending more time in stores and eataries. However, when they looked at seasonally and price adjusted statistics they did not se any measurable increase is sales.

If they would do away with FP it would save qa lot of money and control aggrevation. Queues where there is a separation could either be merged or eliminated.

However, it would probably cause many people to complain. But then, of course, Disney could do what Sea World and Universal do of selling daily FPs. (Universal also has them as an incentive to stay on property, but they only have 2,400 rooms on property while Disney has about 28,000 eligible for EMH.)

 

[Malela9]

My family would be very upset if we had to pay for our passes. We spend enough getting there. Also, think about the poor families that struggle to spend 1 day in the park, much less pay for a Fast Pass.
Trust me, Disneyland uses the heck out of those Fast Passes. I will be having a chat with them if they do that to us!

 

[carmiedog]

Haven't heard this one. The elimination of FP at WDW would definitely make Universal more enticing.

The whole picture may not show increased spending in correlation to less time spent waiting in line with the fastpass system, but they DO get more money from me. We'll never be big souvenir spenders. Period. But with having free time thanks to fp, we do spend more money at table service restaurants which we would avoid if it meant having to skip rides. And fastpass also opens up more time to spend money at Disney Quest, water parks, tea party, etc. I'm doing my part!

 

[Dznefreek]

It works, and it has stopped 2.5 hour wait times at Splash Mountain, etc.

Uh, no it has not . . . . and recently ToT was 180 minutes. . . .

 

[ChrisFL]

It works, and it has stopped 2.5 hour wait times at Splash Mountain, etc.

Actually FP has been shown to make stand-by wait times at most attractions longer, not shorter.

 

[doconeill]

Uh, no it has not . . . . and recently ToT was 180 minutes. . . .

I remember 2+ hour waits at Splash Mountain prior to FP under _normal_ operating conditions in July. Since then, I've only seen it due to maintenance issues.

Actually FP has been shown to make stand-by wait times at most attractions longer, not shorter.

I confess I haven't heard of this, and frankly I'm not exactly sure how it would do it. At worst, wait times might be about the same. The only possible difference I can think of off hand would be that it increased the number of people who would ride twice - once through the standby, and then again through FP, but I think it would need to be a significant percentage to be perceptible.

I'm not saying I'm correct...however at least from the evidence I've seen it has worked.

As for CF's post, I can see those arguments, but I've gotta think it has increased some spending. But in reality, I think the Rider Switch passes have probably have had a better impact (percentage of users-wise), because what is a parent with the toddler going to do while waiting for the others? They aren't as likely to run to another attraction and ride like with Fastpasses. They are more likely to wait in a nice, air-conditioned area - like the gift shop at the ride exit. What do you do while in there? Look around. We at least learned of the existence of several items which although we didn't necessarily buy on the spot, we later went back to get.

 

[YoHo]

On a Sunny day, DL's Splash is running at least 90 minutes all day long and the fast passes sell out early.

TDA has ALWAYS hated fast pass. It was always a Florida thing. It got put in against their wishes and put in stupidly. See Haunted and Pirates.
They've been trying to get rid of it for year, Haunted and Pirates were the first to lose it. And Buzz was I think the last attraction to get it installed.

The biggest example of Fast pass screwing up park flow is Indy. nearly half the queue doesn't get used now. That has far more people spilling out into the streets.

And Cheshire Figmant is right about the failures on both counts. It was supposed to get people to shop more. That was a complete failure. And to make matters worse, it screwed up the queueing, so it made the park feel more full than it actually is. Again, this is most obvious in Adventureland.

I expect DL will keep fast pass for a couple of the worst rides and for HMH where it can be useful, but they aren't gonna build any more rides with it.

As for midway mania. It's a classic dark ride that loads fast . They have a single rider line though it isn't open when the line is at it's worst. It's no worse than waiting for Peter Pan.

 

[ChrisFL]

I remember 2+ hour waits at Splash Mountain prior to FP under _normal_ operating conditions in July. Since then, I've only seen it due to maintenance issues.



I confess I haven't heard of this, and frankly I'm not exactly sure how it would do it. At worst, wait times might be about the same. The only possible difference I can think of off hand would be that it increased the number of people who would ride twice - once through the standby, and then again through FP, but I think it would need to be a significant percentage to be perceptible.

I'm not saying I'm correct...however at least from the evidence I've seen it has worked.

As for CF's post, I can see those arguments, but I've gotta think it has increased some spending. But in reality, I think the Rider Switch passes have probably have had a better impact (percentage of users-wise), because what is a parent with the toddler going to do while waiting for the others? They aren't as likely to run to another attraction and ride like with Fastpasses. They are more likely to wait in a nice, air-conditioned area - like the gift shop at the ride exit. What do you do while in there? Look around. We at least learned of the existence of several items which although we didn't necessarily buy on the spot, we later went back to get.

It's difficult to explain, but I'll give you an example...Soarin'. I've witnessed more than a few occassions where there is a 90+ minute wait, and part of the reason is because they'll let a few regular line people through, stop them to wait for FP people to rush through, then let a couple of more people, then stop them again for more FP people to go through, etc.

Additionally, FP was supposed to work where you HAD to come back within the hour or so timeframe listed on the ticket, but basically they've been allowing anyone to come in after their hour has started, that can mean a much larger influx of FP people later in the day.

 

[DC7800]

I confess I haven't heard of this, and frankly I'm not exactly sure how it would do it. At worst, wait times might be about the same

Fastpass does nothing to increase the actual total capacity of the attraction. A ride will still carry the same number of riders (assuming all seats are filled) whether the queue length is 90 minutes or a walk-on, and whether it has FastPass or just the regular standby line. So while total ride capacity doesn't change, you now take part of your ride 'seats' and load them with people from the FastPass line, essentially reducing the number of seats available to everyone in the standby line. Hence, the standby line has to move slower than it would without FastPass, because there are fewer ride vehicles/seats (attraction capacity) to load within the same period of time.

 

[doconeill]

Fastpass does nothing to increase the actual total capacity of the attraction. A ride will still carry the same number of riders (assuming all seats are filled) whether the queue length is 90 minutes or a walk-on, and whether it has FastPass or just the regular standby line. So while total ride capacity doesn't change, you now take part of your ride 'seats' and load them with people from the FastPass line, essentially reducing the number of seats available to everyone in the standby line. Hence, the standby line has to move slower than it would without FastPass, because there are fewer ride vehicles/seats (attraction capacity) to load within the same period of time.

Right, I understand that. BUT, if the people getting Fastpass would have gone in the standby line anyways if Fastpass was not available, then that means there are more people in the line, and anyone behind them waits that much longer. In fact, what it really does is allow some more people to get through the standby line faster because the people who got the Fastpass stay out of the line a bit longer since the Fastpass is (usually) for a time later than how long it would take to get through the standby line. No one should truely be _delayed_ due to Fastpass, but there is always the _perception_ of being delayed. If you understand that the Fastpass people would have been in the line in front of you anyways if they didn't get a Fastpass, then you'd realize that you are not really waiting longer because of it.

This gets back to that it shouldn't have _extended_ wait times. If it did, something is seriously wrong.

As for _shortening_ wait times, i'll confess - it shouldn't have shortened them for the people in the standby line, EXCEPT where Fastpass takers don't actually show up. But it does shorten the line itself, but again that is a perception thing.

Soarin' is a horrible example because they simply just didn't give it enough capacity, and there is no pre-FP comparison for it.

 

[xrayeyes72]

Please said it isn't so...I love FP

 

[ChrisFL]

Right, I understand that. BUT, if the people getting Fastpass would have gone in the standby line anyways if Fastpass was not available, then that means there are more people in the line, and anyone behind them waits that much longer. In fact, what it really does is allow some more people to get through the standby line faster because the people who got the Fastpass stay out of the line a bit longer since the Fastpass is (usually) for a time later than how long it would take to get through the standby line. No one should truely be _delayed_ due to Fastpass, but there is always the _perception_ of being delayed. If you understand that the Fastpass people would have been in the line in front of you anyways if they didn't get a Fastpass, then you'd realize that you are not really waiting longer because of it.

This gets back to that it shouldn't have _extended_ wait times. If it did, something is seriously wrong.

As for _shortening_ wait times, i'll confess - it shouldn't have shortened them for the people in the standby line, EXCEPT where Fastpass takers don't actually show up. But it does shorten the line itself, but again that is a perception thing.

Soarin' is a horrible example because they simply just didn't give it enough capacity, and there is no pre-FP comparison for it.

Your scenario only works if it's first thing in the morning and making the assumption that those FP people would be going to that ride to start with anyway.

Let's say that 200 people go to MK and pick up a fastpass for, say, Peter Pan, to come back between the hours of 10:00AM and 11:00AM, and 200 more people pick up for 11:00AM and 12:00PM, but they all arrive back at 1:00PM...that's twice as many people as there should be in the FP line, and they also usually get much better treatment going in, because Disney doesn't want FP holders to wait more than 5 minutes once they come back, so the standby line therefore has to wait at least twice as long to get in.

 

[doconeill]

Your scenario only works if it's first thing in the morning and making the assumption that those FP people would be going to that ride to start with anyway.

Let's say that 200 people go to MK and pick up a fastpass for, say, Peter Pan, to come back between the hours of 10:00AM and 11:00AM, and 200 more people pick up for 11:00AM and 12:00PM, but they all arrive back at 1:00PM...that's twice as many people as there should be in the FP line, and they also usually get much better treatment going in, because Disney doesn't want FP holders to wait more than 5 minutes once they come back, so the standby line therefore has to wait at least twice as long to get in.

BUT...if those people showed up within their window, they still would have been in the line. Those people in the standby line still would have to wait whether they show up on time or late (this assumes that the standby line is never empty after opening). In fact, by showing up late, the people in the standby line up until the point they actually show up actually get through _faster_ than they would have if the group showed up on time. The people in the standby line at the point at which the late comers would ride at the same time they would have if they showed up on time.

The difference is in perception. Those at the head of the line when the latecomers show up (especially in a large group) feel they are being delayed because they were next in line - but in reality, at the same point in time they should have been further back in the line. in addition, having the late comers show up en masse throws the standby wait time clock off, so those in the standby line who thought there was only a 45 minute wait time may in fact be there for 60 minutes or more, but we all know how the standby times can be inaccurate anyways.

 

[Goofy4]

The standby line is "unfairly" penalized when an attraction is slowed or stopped (or people hold their passes longer than they should). The fast-pass line is given better service in these cases to keep the line down and the stand-by people shoulder more of the burden in the delay.

To visualize the "late fastpass" issue: It's the end of the day and you want to ride Space or Splash one or more times. You'll find many fastpasser's streaming in well past the expiration time, and you'll wait (granted, not much -- but it does cost you some time and the posted stand-by time will be skewed a bit).

As for the "they would have been there anyway" argument. That's mostly true, except for as noted above. However, in the bigger picture, that general argument assumes that the fast-pass users (and abusers) exit the park early after visiting the same number of attractions they otherwise would have (had they not used the fast passes). If that is not the case, then there's a real good chance that they will slow you down later in the day by being queues they would not have otherwise been in. For illustration: they choose to ride Soarin' twice (at least once with a fastpass) before you ride once, instead of just riding once.

 

[doconeill]

The standby line is "unfairly" penalized when an attraction is slowed or stopped (or people hold their passes longer than they should). The fast-pass line is given better service in these cases to keep the line down and the stand-by people shoulder more of the burden in the delay.

I have always said that it assumes proper operation, but I still argue late fastpass use doesn't actually change anything but perception of delay, whether the ride was down or not, since the fastpass users would have been in the line before the standby users anyways had they been on time.

To visualize the "late fastpass" issue: It's the end of the day and you want to ride Space or Splash one or more times. You'll find many fastpasser's streaming in well past the expiration time, and you'll wait (granted, not much -- but it does cost you some time).

As for the "they would have been there anyway" argument. That's mostly true, except for as noted above.

I'm not sure where the "noted above" fits in. Again, those late people would have been in the line before you. The only difference is that you see them walking past you to take their place in line, and the Standby Time as seen at the entrance may not be accurate, but no one promises that the time is accurate anyways. (it reflects how long it took someone at the front of the line to get there, not how long it will take someone currently at the back of the line to get to the front.)

However, in the bigger picture, that general argument assumes that the fast-pass users (and abusers) exit the park early after visiting the same number of attractions they otherwise would have (had they not used the fast passes). If that is not the case, then there's a real good chance that they will slow you down later in the day by being queues they would not have otherwise been in. For illustration: they choose to ride Soarin' twice (at least once with a fastpass) before you ride once, instead of just riding once.

Yes, I will accept that Fastpass users (regardless of whether they use them on time or late) will get to ride more rides, and therefore there is the potential impact across the park on total dwell times, since they can in essense occupy two lines simultaneously (the fastpass being a "place holder" for them).

Note: I used to be one of the people that thought late fastpasses had a great potential to affect things, but as I have analyzed it more, I understand better the minimal if any impact it really has. So yes, my mind can be changed given the right argument.

 

[Goofy4]

Note: I used to be one of the people that thought late fastpasses had a great potential to affect things, but as I have analyzed it more, I understand better the minimal if any impact it really has. So yes, my mind can be changed given the right argument.

True that the late fast-passers, few in number, simply can't impact the big picture much. My personal benefit of maybe 20 minutes at one attraction, when spread over thousands of people, just doesn't average out to much cost to anyone else.

However, if you wanted to play "how many attractions can I visit in one day" and gave bonus points (each time) for the headliners, I think you would definitely think about holding those fastpasses for later in the day when the park is busier. You would stick with the fast-loading attractions earlier in the day and hit the biggies later (perhaps for a second time around). Invite a thousand of your friends to do the same (please don't try this at home), then you are definitely having an impact on other people's wait times by spending much more time actually "riding" more attractions, displacing others to "waiting".

At least, that's how I see it, I think... The basic "problem" being that by passing you by on one attraction (not such a big deal), I'm now free to jump in another queue or 2 while you're still waiting. The line will be longer once you reach the other queue, and then I just might pass you by again in another queue using another fast-pass.

 

[YoHo]

The thing is though that many people judge whether they'll get in a line based on current wait, so you can't say that the line would be the same length, because it may not have been.