External flashes

Point taken! :lmao: That is why I used the fully auto mode in the first place. I knew that my creative juices had taken a backseat to the Bud Light demons.

I took a look at the Gary Fong stuff and had no idea which one to buy so I gave up on that. Any suggestions on this?


I have 2 of the clear lightspheres, a lot of my shooting is photojournalism type so I wanted the extra range, the whaletail came out after my purchases,, I'm happy with the lightsphere so at this point I don't feel the need to try the whaletail..
 
Iplus no matter how you try to trick the camera/flash, most flashes have a max sync of 60 or 125, unless you get a higher end flash that has high speed sync..

Here's why. We tend to think of the shutter as being open or closed. If we take a shot with a shutter speed of 1/125s, the shutter is closed, it opens for 1/125 seconds, and then it is closed again. That's not exactly how it works.

The shutter consists of two "curtains". When the first curtain pulls away, incoming light hits your sensor. When the seocnd curtain comes down, the sensor is blocked again. So far, that sounds pretty normal.

The trick is when you take picture with high shutter speeds. If you take a shot at 1/500s, your camera's shutter just isn't fast enough. The exposure starts off normally enough, with the first curtain racing across to let light hit the sensor. However, before it gets to the other side of the sensor, the second curtain starts coming along behind it blocking the sensor. At no point in time is the entire sensor exposed. Instead, there is a little moving gap between the two curtains that sweeps across the sensor. The net effect is that no part of the sensor is open for more than 1/500 of a second, but the entire process takes much longer (probably about 1/200 of a second).

When you set your shutter speed faster still, say 1/4000s, the shutters don't move any faster. The gap between then just gets smaller. The time between when the first curtain and the second curtain passes is now only 1/4000s, but it still takes 1/200s for that gap to make its way across the sensor.

There are two important lessons to take away from that. First, using really fast shutter speeds to freeze motion doesn't really work quite the way might think it does. That's because while the exposure might be for 1/4000s and no one part of the picture was exposed for any longer, it still took 1/200 for the entire picture to be exposed.

Second, the normal flash sync speed of your camera is determined by the fastest shutter speed at which the entire sensor is exposed. For most cameras, that seems to be somewhere around 1/125 to 1/500, depending on the camera model. The flash duration is usually extremely fast (from about 1/1000s for a Canon 580EX at full power to about 1/35,000s for the same flash at 1/128 power). It just has to happen during the time between when the first curtain has revealed the sensor and before the second curtain has started to cover it.

Now your probably thinking that I'm an idiot because you've seen flashes capable of operating at much higher speed sync modes. That's true (well, hopefully not the idiot part, just the part about flashes working at higher speed modes). The trick is that they work differently in high speed sync mode. In that mode, the flash starts just before the first curtain starts to reveal the sensor and keeps shining until just after the second curtain closes the last bit of the sensor. So while the two curtains are racing across your sensor for your 1/4000s shot, which I've told you takes about 1/200s to take, the flash is shining for the whole 1/200s.

There are a couple of good points to take away from that as well. First, if you were using a high shutter speed to freeze motion, you'd have done better with the 1/200s shutter speed and 1/10,000s (or whatever it worked out to be) flash duration than you would with a 1/4,000s shutter speed and a 1/200s total exposure duration. That assumes, of course, that your flash was your primary source of light.

Second, running your flash in high speed sync mode all the time comes at a price. Because the flash duration is longer for each shot, you munch through batteries faster and your recharge times are longer. I've never actually tested that, but it seems like it must be the case.

To be honest, all of this is based on observation, various ruminations, conversations with friends that may or may not know what they are talking about, and a few odd references. If you think I'm wrong, don't be cowed by any sense that I must know sometime. Feel free to correct me or disagree.
 
Here's why. We tend to think of the shutter as being open or closed. If we take a shot with a shutter speed of 1/125s, the shutter is closed, it opens for 1/125 seconds, and then it is closed again. That's not exactly how it works.

The shutter consists of two "curtains". When the first curtain pulls away, incoming light hits your sensor. When the seocnd curtain comes down, the sensor is blocked again. So far, that sounds pretty normal.

The trick is when you take picture with high shutter speeds. If you take a shot at 1/500s, your camera's shutter just isn't fast enough. The exposure starts off normally enough, with the first curtain racing across to let light hit the sensor. However, before it gets to the other side of the sensor, the second curtain starts coming along behind it blocking the sensor. At no point in time is the entire sensor exposed. Instead, there is a little moving gap between the two curtains that sweeps across the sensor. The net effect is that no part of the sensor is open for more than 1/500 of a second, but the entire process takes much longer (probably about 1/200 of a second).

When you set your shutter speed faster still, say 1/4000s, the shutters don't move any faster. The gap between then just gets smaller. The time between when the first curtain and the second curtain passes is now only 1/4000s, but it still takes 1/200s for that gap to make its way across the sensor.

There are two important lessons to take away from that. First, using really fast shutter speeds to freeze motion doesn't really work quite the way might think it does. That's because while the exposure might be for 1/4000s and no one part of the picture was exposed for any longer, it still took 1/200 for the entire picture to be exposed.

Second, the normal flash sync speed of your camera is determined by the fastest shutter speed at which the entire sensor is exposed. For most cameras, that seems to be somewhere around 1/125 to 1/500, depending on the camera model. The flash duration is usually extremely fast (from about 1/1000s for a Canon 580EX at full power to about 1/35,000s for the same flash at 1/128 power). It just has to happen during the time between when the first curtain has revealed the sensor and before the second curtain has started to cover it.

Now your probably thinking that I'm an idiot because you've seen flashes capable of operating at much higher speed sync modes. That's true (well, hopefully not the idiot part, just the part about flashes working at higher speed modes). The trick is that they work differently in high speed sync mode. In that mode, the flash starts just before the first curtain starts to reveal the sensor and keeps shining until just after the second curtain closes the last bit of the sensor. So while the two curtains are racing across your sensor for your 1/4000s shot, which I've told you takes about 1/200s to take, the flash is shining for the whole 1/200s.

There are a couple of good points to take away from that as well. First, if you were using a high shutter speed to freeze motion, you'd have done better with the 1/200s shutter speed and 1/10,000s (or whatever it worked out to be) flash duration than you would with a 1/4,000s shutter speed and a 1/200s total exposure duration. That assumes, of course, that your flash was your primary source of light.

Second, running your flash in high speed sync mode all the time comes at a price. Because the flash duration is longer for each shot, you munch through batteries faster and your recharge times are longer. I've never actually tested that, but it seems like it must be the case.

To be honest, all of this is based on observation, various ruminations, conversations with friends that may or may not know what they are talking about, and a few odd references. If you think I'm wrong, don't be cowed by any sense that I must know sometime. Feel free to correct me or disagree.

won't even venture to say if you are wrong or right, I personally don't need to know the details of why or how it works, just that it works... to me too much technical info just complicates the whole issue for the average person.

the bottom line is, if you shoot at a speed higher than your max sync speed you end up with a shadow across your pic, rendering it basically worthless..

the one time I do use high speed sync is for outdoor shooting in the shade on a bright day, or for fill on a face if the sun is high and causing shadows on the eye sockets and under the nose,

for good balance of ambient light and flash, you generally want to shoot at 1/6o or 1/125
 
I'll second what Jen said ... great thread, and I'm sure one a lot of people can benefit from.

I'm taking a course right now and we just spent an evening on flash. A couple of things I learned:

with the canon speedlights, if you're in AV mode, it assumes you want to preserve the ambient light, and the camera will select the appropriate shutter speed, regardless of how slow that may be. The flash output adjusts accordingly. So, if your shutter speed is half a second, you'll need to drag out the tripod, even with the flash!

If you're shooting in manual and your ambient light is your main source of light, and the flash is secondary, expose one stop under what your meter tells you. The flash will brighten up the background without over-exposing it. We played around with this a lot in class, and I found by stopping down one full stop on exposure and also stopping down 1/3 on the flash, I got a beautiful, natural looking shot with no obvious flash glare. Obviously, it's not a given, but the main point was, under-expose first, then adjust your flash if need be. The emphasis was really on experiment to death!

Hmmm...so much to learn about flash, my head is spinning!
 

Even the flashbulb and film camera experts needed to be aware of sync. speed. Flashbulbs have a light output that takes a period of time, typically 1/60'th second. If the shutter speed was too fast, even for open/close shutters (between the lens shutters or behind the lens shutters, typically found on point and shoots) some of the light is wasted as it starts or ends when the shutter is closed. For curtain shutters (focal plane shutters, typical on SLR's), flashbulbs with a long flash, with relatively constant intensity lasting for the entire time the slit crosses the film, are used.
 
Here's why. We tend to think of the shutter as being open or closed. If we take a shot with a shutter speed of 1/125s, the shutter is closed, it opens for 1/125 seconds, and then it is closed again. That's not exactly how it works.

The shutter consists of two "curtains". When the first curtain pulls away, incoming light hits your sensor. When the seocnd curtain comes down, the sensor is blocked again. So far, that sounds pretty normal.

The trick is when you take picture with high shutter speeds. If you take a shot at 1/500s, your camera's shutter just isn't fast enough. The exposure starts off normally enough, with the first curtain racing across to let light hit the sensor. However, before it gets to the other side of the sensor, the second curtain starts coming along behind it blocking the sensor. At no point in time is the entire sensor exposed. Instead, there is a little moving gap between the two curtains that sweeps across the sensor. The net effect is that no part of the sensor is open for more than 1/500 of a second, but the entire process takes much longer (probably about 1/200 of a second).

When you set your shutter speed faster still, say 1/4000s, the shutters don't move any faster. The gap between then just gets smaller. The time between when the first curtain and the second curtain passes is now only 1/4000s, but it still takes 1/200s for that gap to make its way across the sensor.

There are two important lessons to take away from that. First, using really fast shutter speeds to freeze motion doesn't really work quite the way might think it does. That's because while the exposure might be for 1/4000s and no one part of the picture was exposed for any longer, it still took 1/200 for the entire picture to be exposed.

Second, the normal flash sync speed of your camera is determined by the fastest shutter speed at which the entire sensor is exposed. For most cameras, that seems to be somewhere around 1/125 to 1/500, depending on the camera model. The flash duration is usually extremely fast (from about 1/1000s for a Canon 580EX at full power to about 1/35,000s for the same flash at 1/128 power). It just has to happen during the time between when the first curtain has revealed the sensor and before the second curtain has started to cover it.

Now your probably thinking that I'm an idiot because you've seen flashes capable of operating at much higher speed sync modes. That's true (well, hopefully not the idiot part, just the part about flashes working at higher speed modes). The trick is that they work differently in high speed sync mode. In that mode, the flash starts just before the first curtain starts to reveal the sensor and keeps shining until just after the second curtain closes the last bit of the sensor. So while the two curtains are racing across your sensor for your 1/4000s shot, which I've told you takes about 1/200s to take, the flash is shining for the whole 1/200s.

There are a couple of good points to take away from that as well. First, if you were using a high shutter speed to freeze motion, you'd have done better with the 1/200s shutter speed and 1/10,000s (or whatever it worked out to be) flash duration than you would with a 1/4,000s shutter speed and a 1/200s total exposure duration. That assumes, of course, that your flash was your primary source of light.

Second, running your flash in high speed sync mode all the time comes at a price. Because the flash duration is longer for each shot, you munch through batteries faster and your recharge times are longer. I've never actually tested that, but it seems like it must be the case.

To be honest, all of this is based on observation, various ruminations, conversations with friends that may or may not know what they are talking about, and a few odd references. If you think I'm wrong, don't be cowed by any sense that I must know sometime. Feel free to correct me or disagree.

:scared1: :faint:

Wow, I have alot to learn...
 
I'll second what Jen said ... great thread, and I'm sure one a lot of people can benefit from.

I'm taking a course right now and we just spent an evening on flash. A couple of things I learned:

with the canon speedlights, if you're in AV mode, it assumes you want to preserve the ambient light, and the camera will select the appropriate shutter speed, regardless of how slow that may be. The flash output adjusts accordingly. So, if your shutter speed is half a second, you'll need to drag out the tripod, even with the flash!

If you're shooting in manual and your ambient light is your main source of light, and the flash is secondary, expose one stop under what your meter tells you. The flash will brighten up the background without over-exposing it. We played around with this a lot in class, and I found by stopping down one full stop on exposure and also stopping down 1/3 on the flash, I got a beautiful, natural looking shot with no obvious flash glare. Obviously, it's not a given, but the main point was, under-expose first, then adjust your flash if need be. The emphasis was really on experiment to death!

Hmmm...so much to learn about flash, my head is spinning!

Lizzie,

Sure seems like Av mode was NOT the way for me to go the other night. I think I will try using Tv or even M this Saturday night. I will also speak with the photographer if they have time and see what they say. I'm taking the New York Institute of Photography courses now and hopefully they get into flash alot so I can learn more about this.
 
/
Even the flashbulb and film camera experts needed to be aware of sync. speed. Flashbulbs have a light output that takes a period of time, typically 1/60'th second. If the shutter speed was too fast, even for open/close shutters (between the lens shutters or behind the lens shutters, typically found on point and shoots) some of the light is wasted as it starts or ends when the shutter is closed. For curtain shutters (focal plane shutters, typical on SLR's), flashbulbs with a long flash, with relatively constant intensity lasting for the entire time the slit crosses the film, are used.

Hmmm... how do I get these things to work on the 30D anyways? :confused3
FlashCubes.jpg



Just kidding, and YES I do still have these in my drawer here at home... :rolleyes1
 
Now your probably thinking that I'm an idiot because you've seen flashes capable of operating at much higher speed sync modes. That's true (well, hopefully not the idiot part, just the part about flashes working at higher speed modes). The trick is that they work differently in high speed sync mode. In that mode, the flash starts just before the first curtain starts to reveal the sensor and keeps shining until just after the second curtain closes the last bit of the sensor. So while the two curtains are racing across your sensor for your 1/4000s shot, which I've told you takes about 1/200s to take, the flash is shining for the whole 1/200s.

Pretty close to correct (not the idiot part). ;) The flash may appear to be on continuously but actually it is repeatedly firing fast enough so it can cover the entire exposure without missing a part. Consider, if the shutter is set for 1/800 but it actually moves at 1/200 then it would be a slit 25% of the total shutter opening. In that case four flashes timed properly would illuminate the entire image as far as the sensor is concerned. That's some difficult timing but if we had many more than four flashes they would not even have to be timed properly. It's no problem (electronically anyway)firing the flash 10,000 or more times a second, that's 50 flashes per shutter actuation!
By adjusting the proportion of on/off time the flash still maintains control of the exposure.

Modern electronics controlled by computers, what a great combination!
 
Hmmm... how do I get these things to work on the 30D anyways? :confused3
FlashCubes.jpg



Just kidding, and YES I do still have these in my drawer here at home... :rolleyes1

now that's a trip down memory lane!! Remember when you (ok ... me) used to be really selective about which shot to take, so as not to waste them?!
 
Lizzie,

Sure seems like Av mode was NOT the way for me to go the other night. I think I will try using Tv or even M this Saturday night. I will also speak with the photographer if they have time and see what they say. I'm taking the New York Institute of Photography courses now and hopefully they get into flash alot so I can learn more about this.

Just a quick note to add here. According to the article I linked earlier, TV mode will also first choose to expose the background correctly (same as AV). In other words, both AV and TV work as fill flash. If, in TV, you set the shutter speed too fast and your aperture is wide open, you'll see the aperture flash in your viewfinder, indicating your background is too dimly lit. It will allow you to take the picture, but your background will be under-exposed. If you want to expose the backgrund correctly, then you need to decrease the shutter speed to compensate.

P always assumes you want to light the foreground and will act accordingly. If the backgrou ends up black, so be it. And manual is...well... manual! :scared1:

Too bad I can't remember any of this stuff when I have the camera/flash in my hand, and there's a shot I just *have* to get!
 
Pretty close to correct (not the idiot part). ;) Consider, if the shutter is set for 1/800 but it actually moves at 1/200 then it would be a slit 25% of the total shutter opening. In that case four flashes timed properly would illuminate the entire image as far as the sensor is concerned. That's some difficult timing .

Modern electronics controlled by computers, what a great combination!
(OT unless you have a Ph.D. in art emphasizing photography) Yes, difficult timing. The shutter is mechanical. I find it hard to believe that just several electronically controlled flashes would sync. with a moving shutter slit to exactly expose, say, the first 25%, the next 25%, etc. of the sensor without overlap or underexposed gaps. It would have to either be many (like several dozen) flashes, or a shutter curtain movement that had the entire sensor exposed for some time period when all of the flashes occurred.
Hmmm... how do I get these things (flashcubes) to work on the 30D anyways?
Just kidding, and YES I do still have these in my drawer here at home...
I wish digital cameras had come with "hot shoes" so I could use just about any flash gun including the one I still use with flash cubes and my film camera. A 2.8 lens and a high power cube and ISO 200 gets me something like 50 feet of flash range compared with the 9 or so feet on my Canon digital built in flash.
 
(OT unless you have a Ph.D. in art emphasizing photography) Yes, difficult timing. The shutter is mechanical. I find it hard to believe that just several electronically controlled flashes would sync. with a moving shutter slit to exactly expose, say, the first 25%, the next 25%, etc. of the sensor without overlap or underexposed gaps. It would have to either be many (like several dozen) flashes, or a shutter curtain movement that had the entire sensor exposed for some time period when all of the flashes occurred.

I wish digital cameras had come with "hot shoes" so I could use just about any flash gun including the one I still use with flash cubes and my film camera. A 2.8 lens and a high power cube and ISO 200 gets me something like 50 feet of flash range compared with the 9 or so feet on my Canon digital built in flash.


if you're talking about a digital point and shoot, there are external flashes made to slave off of the built in flash, you get a small bracket that attaches via the tripod socket, then the flash goes on the bracket
 
My head is spinning - not sure if it is the cold meds or all the flash talk. ;)

I have one quick question - why hasn't Bryan Peterson written a book about flash? I mean geesh - he explains everything else so well why not this?
:sad2:
 
my flash is my next purchase( unless i come up with the 40d money first) and i hope this is lots easier than it sounds,..but i don't think so,,,,oh crud...i wish there was a cheap online course..Lizzie where are you taking yours?
 
Jann, I'm taking a general photography course through the local photography school. It's an 8-week course and last week was all about flash. In February, I start a 6 week course that is exclusively all about lighting - the first two weeks cover ambient light; the next 2 are all about flash and the final two are about setting up home-based studio lighting, supposedly, according to the description, with minimum $ output - I really like the sound of that :thumbsup2
 
Jann, I'm taking a general photography course through the local photography school. It's an 8-week course and last week was all about flash. In February, I start a 6 week course that is exclusively all about lighting - the first two weeks cover ambient light; the next 2 are all about flash and the final two are about setting up home-based studio lighting, supposedly, according to the description, with minimum $ output - I really like the sound of that :thumbsup2

Ya know Jane - we are all gonna expect you to come back and teach us everything you have learned in your classes. ;)
 
My head is spinning - not sure if it is the cold meds or all the flash talk. ;)

I have one quick question - why hasn't Bryan Peterson written a book about flash? I mean geesh - he explains everything else so well why not this?
:sad2:

It would be great if he did, huh? He's the only one who can talk gobbly-gook so that I understand it!

I think part of the problem is that not all brands of flash act the same way. From what I gathered last week, Canon speedlights react differently in some of the modes than Nikon speedlights.
 
Jen you seem to be doing fine from what i've seen:thumbsup2
I might look into one of the local colleges and see if they have anything online once i actually get a flash:lmao: since right now it would be "air flash":rotfl2: although i could probably master that one.
 
Ok, so I went to the second wedding this month and had MUCH better success with the flash! :cool1: I think that the reason for this was the lower, all white ceilings that I was bouncing the flash off of. I really really concentrated on what I was doing at this wedding, but still, I screwed up a large portion of my shooting by trying to figure out how I could push a faster shutter speed from my camera. Well, after about an hour of giving up, I realized that my ISO was set at 100! I never even thought of ISO! Why, why, why can't I remember all the things that go into this hobby? :mad: Anyways, those photos were somewhat saved by the fact that I shot RAW and was able to PP them enough to make them look good. There is blur in some, of course, but the biggest problem was underexposure and it was somewhat easily correctable.

I spoke with the photographer on hand and she was shooting at ISO 1600 on the 5D. Her backup camera was a 20D. She said something that made little or no sense to me. She claimed that she could use a shutter speed of, like, 1/15 sec with the flash and it would light up the subject AND let the camera record some ambient light (rather than have that black background) and that the 1/15 second shutter (she claimed she could go down to 1/3!) would not cause the subject to blur, because the flash would light them so well. HUH? I can't imagine that the subject wouldn't blur. Does anyone have a better explaination of this? She was totally confident that it would be fine. I didn't try it, because it sounded stupid, but I can't wait to see her pics. She was so into talking to someone about photography, it was a great talk until she had to get back to work.

One thing I realized too (and I always knew) was that metering for a black tux and a white dress in the same shot is a nightmare! I had to PP almost all my shots to get a better exposure. I wish I could do it direct from the camera, but my knowledge on this is too limited right now.

Well, in the end, I ended up with photos that I would think are above average from someone not getting paid to do the event and that makes me pretty darned happy with the whole experience.
 













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