Explosions and shootings in Paris

[nanienamou]

What you've outlined is not quite my understanding of the trajectory of events. I hate to say only that, but I think that's all I can discuss here.

I'm guessing the interpretation of the situation depends of the country/region in which you live and this could be a very slippery path indeed...

 

[cabanafrau]

My implication is that when you taunt evil and the devil, he tends to show up. And before this gets tossed my way, I am in NO WAY saying that these people deserved this horrifying death.

Before you entertain this train of thought you might want to see if you can locate an interview I saw parts of last night on CNN. It was a young couple who were in attendance at the concert. The account by the young woman in particular chilled, humbled and uplifted me in a way I will never forget. She describes the atmosphere and mood of the crowd just before the attack, the fear and horror during the attack, her thoughts and defiance during the attack -- and the mindboggling explanation of the overwhelming feeling of love she sensed in the room amongst her fellow captives while they awaited their fate. Spoiler alert -- love triumphed.

 

[pryncess527]

I think this is directed at me. I did not reply because I thought CPanther's reply was an adequate response. I am sorry that you expected more. I do think that what we are doing isn't working. I may not have the answer but that doesn't mean we throw up our hands because the solution is not easy or obvious.

What do you think the solution should be?

I do not expect you to have the answers. Nor do I claim to have the answers. You stated that you thought people should not be allowed into this country, on passports, unless we knew they had been properly screened. I merely wanted to know how you envision that happening. Cpanther made no mention of passports at all, which is why I found his reply a strange non-sequitur. I tried to be quite clear in my first post that the passport portion of your statement was what I found curious and I just wanted to know if you had any idea what that might look like. If you don't, that's cool too, I was just curious.

 

[DopeyDame]

My implication is that when you taunt evil and the devil, he tends to show up. And before this gets tossed my way, I am in NO WAY saying that these people deserved this horrifying death.

What if they were singing "The Devil Went Down to Texas" instead? Would the attacks have been in Texas? Just wondering what the devil's guidelines are.

 

[erin1715]

I'll freely state that is my opinion. I can have my beliefs and you (general you) can have yours. We can agree to disagree. I'm not going to get roped into any further conversation.

 

[CPanther95]

I do not expect you to have the answers. Nor do I claim to have the answers. You stated that you thought people should not be allowed into this country, on passports, unless we knew they had been properly screened. I merely wanted to know how you envision that happening. Cpanther made no mention of passports at all, which is why I found his reply a strange non-sequitur. I tried to be quite clear in my first post that the passport portion of your statement was what I found curious and I just wanted to know if you had any idea what that might look like.

Can't speak for asta, but my view is that if it is so easy for terrorists to come into the country using government issued passports, then we should no longer blindly accept a passport as sufficient to enter the country. We need something more effective at screening - even if it means using statistically significant criteria that some may consider profiling.

 

[asta]

I do not expect you to have the answers. Nor do I claim to have the answers. You stated that you thought people should not be allowed into this country, on passports, unless we knew they had been properly screened. I merely wanted to know how you envision that happening. Cpanther made no mention of passports at all, which is why I found his reply a strange non-sequitur. I tried to be quite clear in my first post that the passport portion of your statement was what I found curious and I just wanted to know if you had any idea what that might look like. If you don't, that's cool too, I was just curious.

I wish I did have the answer. I don't understand why discussion of screening is excluded from improving entry by passport.

 

[gwynne]

I wish I did have the answer. I don't understand why discussion of screening is excluded from improving entry by passport.

You can discuss all you'd like. Why is something to consider with great caution? Maybe because it might backfire, and US citizens would have their passports flagged as suspect.

 

[pryncess527]

I wish I did have the answer. I don't understand why discussion of screening is excluded from improving entry by passport.

I'm not sure what you mean here -- I was not trying to exclude any discussion of screening. I was trying to separate out the issue of screening refugees from your comment about passport control. They are two different methods of entry. Most of this post has been about refugees. you were the first one I saw (though I may have missed others) that mentioned passports. I wanted to discuss that on its own, since it's different from the refugee issue. CPanther has provided his thoughts, which I appreciate. You liked his comments, so I'll just assume you agree with him. But please know I was not trying to exclude anything from the conversation -- merely be clear about what people mean.

 

[gwynne]

I'm not sure what you mean here -- I was not trying to exclude any discussion of screening. I was trying to separate out the issue of screening refugees from your comment about passport control. They are two different methods of entry. Most of this post has been about refugees. you were the first one I saw (though I may have missed others) that mentioned passports. I wanted to discuss that on its own, since it's different from the refugee issue. CPanther has provided his thoughts, which I appreciate. You liked his comments, so I'll just assume you agree with him. But please know I was not trying to exclude anything from the conversation -- merely be clear about what people mean.

I think student visas might be another good topic for discussion.
Personally, I'm not too alarmed by widows and small children that come in as refugees.
Able- bodied young men here to attend school on a student visa might be worth some consideration-is this a good program?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yikes, a lot to sort through this morning!

France just confirmed Abaaoud was one of the dead in yesterday's raid.

I hope they keep up the pressure though.

An article that perhaps sheds some light on his radicalization.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-playboy-spurned-spread-hatred-slaughter.html

This is an opinion board, that's your opinion.
I totally disagree with your statement I put in boldface. Frankly, I find this line of discussion pretty offensive.

I can't believe we're even mentioning whether or not the innocents deserved to die. Of course they didn't. And I believe attempting to tie these two things together is disrespectful to the dead and injured.

I think we have to be careful about cherry picking what we're offended by.

The mods have been gracious enough to leave this thread open. I'm guessing because they recognize people need to talk about this, sort of the same way people needed to talk about it/grieve after 9/11.

But probably most of us have been "offended" by some of the opionions of others expressed here as well. (I've seen a few things just in the last couple of pages that invoked a strong reaction in me, myself!) Arguing about it will get the thread closed. Let's just let it be.

Just my two cents.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Yikes, a lot to sort through this morning!


An article that perhaps sheds some light on his radicalization.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-playboy-spurned-spread-hatred-slaughter.html


I think we have to be careful about cherry picking what we're offended by.

The mods have been gracious enough to leave this thread open. I'm guessing because they recognize people need to talk about this, sort of the same way people needed to talk about it/grieve after 9/11.

But probably most of us have been "offended" by some of the opionions of others expressed here as well. (I've seen a few things just in the last couple of pages that invoked a strong reaction in me, myself!) Arguing about it will get the thread closed. Let's just let it be.

Just my two cents.

Honestly, the comments made by that poster were outrageous. Its one thing to share differing opinions and try to have a meaningful dicussion but comments like those do nothing to add to a conversation. You do realize those comments were basically saying it's their own fault for taunting the devil with a song.

 

[cabanafrau]

Yikes, a lot to sort through this morning!


An article that perhaps sheds some light on his radicalization.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-playboy-spurned-spread-hatred-slaughter.html

To the extent that the Daily Mail is credible, the description of his personality traits sounds an awful lot like Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

 

[pryncess527]

An article that perhaps sheds some light on his radicalization.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-playboy-spurned-spread-hatred-slaughter.html

From the Daily Mail article

Now came the fateful twist. One that would transform Abaaoud from a playboy and small-time crook into a warped ideologue capable of unfathomable barbarity.

As in France and, to a lesser extent, Britain, the number of ethnic minorities in Belgium’s prisons is disproportionately high, and they seethe with discontent.

It makes these cell-blocks ripe breeding grounds for Islamist hatemongers.

And, like Amedy Coulibaly, one of the killers who attacked the offices of Charlie Hebdo magazine and a Jewish supermarket in Paris last January, Abaaoud was radicalised as he served his time.

This seems to be a common thread among many radicalized individuals. I'm not sure what the solution is, but it seems imperative that we take a long, hard look at the way our prison system (and other countries prison systems) are contributing to this problem. Being more judicious about who gets sent to prison in the first place (I'm not a fan of jailtime for non-violent crimes), & doing a better job of segregating radical elements from the general population (to the extent that's possible) might go a long way to diminish the recruiting ability of these groups.

I mean, the article goes on to state that Abaaoud, who was in jail for armed robbery, was radicalized by someone who was sent to jail for belonging to a terrorist group and brainwashing them for jihad. Why on earth would a known terrorist who brainwashes others be given access to "regular"criminals who, up until that point, had no history of involvement with terrorism?

 

[Domo]

Can't speak for asta, but my view is that if it is so easy for terrorists to come into the country using government issued passports, then we should no longer blindly accept a passport as sufficient to enter the country. We need something more effective at screening - even if it means using statistically significant criteria that some may consider profiling.

All I know is that it's dead easy to get into the USA as it is pretty much anywhere on the globe. Last time I went to Orlando, I registered via ESTA, the online screening system (within which was the question "Do you intend to commit an act of terrorism on USA soil?") and flashed my passport, as well as having my picture taken and my fingerprints read. Now, if you've flown under the radar, you could be in the USA overnight using this system. If you're patient enough, you could apply for a green card, hop over to America, buy a gun, go to WDW and open fire. Instant terror and damage. The fact that more terrorist attacks haven't occurred closer to home is possibly a tribute to our intelligence services, or possibly a hint that these terror groups aren't as organised as we thought!

 

[erin1715]

Honestly, the comments made by that poster were outrageous. Its one thing to share differing opinions and try to have a meaningful dicussion but comments like those do nothing to add to a conversation. You do realize those comments were basically saying it's their own fault for taunting the devil with a song.

Wow. That's exactly why I stated in NO WAY did I think they deserved it. If I didn't mention it, I would get accused of that anyway. Since I did mention it, I still get accused of it. I guess either way it doesn't matter. You may not think it adds to the conversation, but MY beliefs are different than yours, and I (and others) may believe it does have significance.

 

[pryncess527]

Wow. That's exactly why I stated in NO WAY did I think they deserved it. If I didn't mention it, I would get accused of that anyway. Since I did mention it, I still get accused of it. I guess either way it doesn't matter. You may not think it adds to the conversation, but MY beliefs are different than yours, and I (and others) may believe it does have significance.

yeah, you said it, but it felt pretty hollow. it's hard to say, "Maybe X wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been doing Y-- but I totally don't mean Y is your fault because you were doing X!!!"

I mean, if you aren't saying Y is your fault for doing X, then what was the point of saying maybe X wouldn't have happened if?

It's like following up an insult with Bless Your Heart -- it doesn't do much to erase the insult.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

According to several news sources, ISIS came from Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda came from a "network of Arab volunteers who had gone to Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight under the banner of Islam against Soviet Communism". That's from BBC and CBS.

But then I saw something the other day that said ISIS came from Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda came from the rebels we helped to fight Asaad. Of course he was an evil that needed to be fought too.

Either/or, they still come out of the Middle East.

This is correct, as to my understanding, as well. I can't explain it as eloquently as someone like Geoff can, but here's my rudimentary take on it. (And I don't have time for more today, it's extremely complex. Feel free to correct if I am wrong, or expound on my comments.)

The modern roots go way back to the 1940s and 50s (and before). During the Cold War, Russia invaded Afghanistan. We, in turn, helped the rebels fighting the invaders. (Sounds sort of familiar, right?) Afghanistan was left in ruins, and the mostly young men of that time in that area began to form Al Queda, with Osama Bin Laden as one of the leaders. (There is so much more to this, obviously.) There had been calls by leaders for jihad by mujahideen against the West and others seen as infiels or non-believers. Much went on in the 80s and 90s, till now. Several years back ISIS was formed. This can explain it way better than I: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/syria-iraq-incubators-isis-jihad

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Honestly, the comments made by that poster were outrageous. Its one thing to share differing opinions and try to have a meaningful dicussion but comments like those do nothing to add to a conversation. You do realize those comments were basically saying it's their own fault for taunting the devil with a song.

That's not how I took it. But again, lots of people here, no doubt, are offended by some of the comments here. Let's continue to have a meaningful, respectful conversation without cherry picking what we're going to be outraged about. No doubt, we're all learning some things and trying to understand where people are coming from.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Wow. That's exactly why I stated in NO WAY did I think they deserved it. If I didn't mention it, I would get accused of that anyway. Since I did mention it, I still get accused of it. I guess either way it doesn't matter. You may not think it adds to the conversation, but MY beliefs are different than yours, and I (and others) may believe it does have significance.

I didn't accuse you of saying they deserved it. You clearly said it was their own fault though. That's pretty much the only thing that can be drawn from your cimments. Have your opinion all you want but own it.
Yeah, it doesn't add anything to any semi intelligent conversation.