Excuse Me, “Legacy Fans”? We Might Just Be Disney’s Only Way Forward.

[Jamie77]

It's kind of sad. I miss the 90's Disney level of hotel service.

My first trip wasn't until 2002 so I didn't get to see what was called "The Disney Difference" in the years before that. But whatever was left of it was great while it lasted.

 

[raidermatt]

Great point. I wonder how traffic on these boards has fared over the last 10 years.

That's a tough comparison due to other factors. I was very active here in the 00's, much less so since. I can definitely say the boards were much busier 15 years ago.

HOWEVER, many niche message boards like this have lost traffic over the last 10 years to other Social Media options. Some message boards I once frequented are gone now. So the fact that this one is still going fairly strong is testament to what the Dis has built.

Over time though, if the "Legacy" and "Undesirable" fans really are weeded out, it will mean less traffic for sites like this. There will still be trip planning of course, but it will be transitory because most of those seeking advice will be less frequent visitors who don't discuss Disney just for the fun of it. And of course if they somehow morph into bigger fans who visit more often, they will then become "Legacy" and "Undesirable".

It's really a strange situation if you try to figure out the endgame in all of this. They say the Legacy fans don't spend as much per day or per visit, but what about over the course of a year? Who is buying all that merch when it is released? Who actually becomes paid D23 members who are paying for the right to buy exclusive merchandise? Heck, if the Legacy fans are weeded out, and Disney really became a place mostly visited by occasional vacationers, D23 would be dead.

Think of it this way. Where would the comic book industry be if they decided they wanted to shed their loyal crowd to pursue less frequent fans who might be willing to pay more for a fancier comic book once in awhile.

If Disney continues to double down on this strategy, it's going to be very interesting to see if it is sustainable over the long term. Legacy fans may not spend as much on a given day or in a given week, but over the course of a year? Their lifetimes?

 

[Jrb1979]

Not sure if any of caught Chapeks interview today but it sheds some light on how they really feel about Legacy fans.

https://**************.net/2022/09/disney-bob-chapek-gives-unpopular-comments-superfans-ab1d23/

Chapek's quote from today.

"We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. But at the same time, we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park for the family from Denver that comes once every five years. We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in. That doesn’t seem like a real balanced proposition.”

If you read between the lines new APs aren't going on sale soon and they prefer the once in a lifetime guest over Legacy fans.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

Jrb1979, thank you for the quote and link.

The quote says: "We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed ... ." [Emphasis added.]

That is the answer to when the new sales of annual passes will come back. Disney has capped the number of annual passes outstanding. So, the answer to when annual passes will come back is when they have enough annual passes in inventory to sustain sales for a reasonable period of time. They get the inventory from current passholders who do not renew. So, when current passholders say they are renewing only because they fear they will not be able to get an annual pass again later, that just makes Disney's replenishment rate slower. It will take longer for them to gather inventory to support new sales. But, that does not translate into new APs will not go on sale any time soon. We do not know how close they are to reaching their goal of having enough in inventory to re-open new sales. Disney could choose to add more annual passes to the current cap. People might not renew in greater numbers for many reasons. So, new sales could be imminent if their inventory is close to reaching a sufficient number to sustain new sales for a reasonable time.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

Here's the rest of the quote on that website. (Bob Chapek, CEO, The Walt Disney Company, September 10, 2022, https://**************.net/2022/09/disney-bob-chapek-gives-unpopular-comments-superfans-ab1d23/, accessed September 11, 2023.)

"Chapek said he recognized that many superfans might see “this as a disadvantage,” but it’s exactly what he felt like he needed to do to treat families who do not visit Disney World often.​

​

“We’ve got to make sure that not only are we heeding the needs of our superfans, but we’re heeding the needs of everyone who travels from across the country one time every five years. We have a real high-class problem: We have much more demand than there is supply. What we will not bend on is giving somebody a less than stellar experience in the parks because we jammed too many people in there. If we’re going to have that foundational rule, you have to start balancing who you let in. … Our ticket prices and constraints we put on how often people can come and when they come is a direct reflection of demand. When is it too much? Demand will tell us when it’s too much.” [Emphasis added.]​

​

Two important points. First, this is proof again they have lowered the maximum capacity. Some earlier bloggers said they lowered it by 17% from 2019. Previous information on the internet indicated in 2019, about 34% of the attendance at WDW were passholders. So, coupled with limiting the number of outstanding annual passes, they might have cut the passholder numbers about in half.

The second point pertains to the constraints they put on how often people can come and when they can come. At WDW, we see that in only Pixie passes currently being on sale for new annual passes. The lawsuit may be impacting their "levers" on the other tool of reservations with two separate buckets. It still leaves open lifting blockout dates and adding bonus days against the number of reservation holds without staying in a Disney owned or other qualified resort (using length of stay exception and, of course, ticket dated reservations.) They could also add afternoon entry.

Other than those two issues, the only other driving force is demand. However, before Disney expands the limiting cap on the number of annual passes outstanding, Disney is likely to use the other levers to achieve the mix they think is working for them.

 

[revdon64]

Admittedly, I'm not a business major. Nonetheless, I don't understand how the obvious answer to increased demand isn't increased supply, in this case, capacity. Why are they not looking seriously at more high-capacity dark rides, park expansions with new flat rides, or even a fifth gate? Why is it that their answer to this is decreased capacity by decreased staffing? As I've said before, Disney has likely lost me for good - no park visits planned, one last cruise for my youngest son, then we're done - but my heart is still broken by the loss of the place that created so many great memories for me and my family. But Iger and Chapek and Damaro don't care about the "legacy fan" like me, so I've got to learn not to care about their product. It's nice of ol' Bob to pay lip service and say that they want everyone, but the actions of the company say something else entirely.

 

[DisneyFive]

Not sure if any of caught Chapeks interview today but it sheds some light on how they really feel about Legacy fans.

https://**************.net/2022/09/disney-bob-chapek-gives-unpopular-comments-superfans-ab1d23/

Chapek's quote from today.

"We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. But at the same time, we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park for the family from Denver that comes once every five years. We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in. That doesn’t seem like a real balanced proposition.”

If you read between the lines new APs aren't going on sale soon and they prefer the once in a lifetime guest over Legacy fans.

On the face of it, it's nice that he's throwing out some love to the super fans (which he strangely seems to associate exclusively to AP holders). I'm sure he would also reference those out of state annual visitors as super fans, but interestingly he doesn't address them. Why? ...because they spend a ton of money per day (resort, tickets, dining) compared to AP holders.

I don't like this point here: "and that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in". It's taking the minority and projecting it as a common occurrence. Yeah, considering the whole calendar year how often would that happen? (being turned away) Maybe a few days around spring break and maybe a few around Christmas. It was rare.

I agree with others. What he's really saying is that the park was overrun (in their perspective) with AP holders using it as their personal playground spending far less cash per day in the park. I really feel for those that moved to central Florida to make use of WDW with AP's. That whole dream has vanished.

Dan

 

[scrappinginontario]

Admittedly, I'm not a business major. Nonetheless, I don't understand how the obvious answer to increased demand isn't increased supply, in this case, capacity. Why are they not looking seriously at more high-capacity dark rides, park expansions with new flat rides, or even a fifth gate? Why is it that their answer to this is decreased capacity by decreased staffing? As I've said before, Disney has likely lost me for good - no park visits planned, one last cruise for my youngest son, then we're done - but my heart is still broken by the loss of the place that created so many great memories for me and my family. But Iger and Chapek and Damaro don't care about the "legacy fan" like me, so I've got to learn not to care about their product. It's nice of ol' Bob to pay lip service and say that they want everyone, but the actions of the company say something else entirely.

While I appreciate your thoughts, increased attractions and even a new gate come with more people wanting to visit. Your suggestion is a solution but will also increase traffic.

I truly believe the staffing challenge is the same at Disney as it is locally and many other places. For some reason there are just not enough people to fill the demand for current jobs. Where I work job postings are constantly being lengthened as they're just not receiving qualified applicants. Even high paying jobs are scrambling to find qualified staff and almost every dining establishment or store here has a help wanted sign in the window.

 

[MadderAdder]

While I appreciate your thoughts, increased attractions and even a new gate come with more people wanting to visit. Your suggestion is a solution but will also increase traffic.

I truly believe the staffing challenge is the same at Disney as it is locally and many other places. For some reason there are just not enough people to fill the demand for current jobs. Where I work job postings are constantly being lengthened as they're just not receiving qualified applicants. Even high paying jobs are scrambling to find qualified staff and almost every dining establishment or store here has a help wanted sign in the window.

For some reason? COVID decimated the number of workforce persons. It sadly lowered our lifespan average. There’s that “some reason”.

 

[Figvention]

Think of it this way. Where would the comic book industry be if they decided they wanted to shed their loyal crowd to pursue less frequent fans who might be willing to pay more for a fancier comic book once in awhile.

Lots of headwind in the publishing community that physical comics will soon be a thing of the past. The paper resources are huge and the man power/logistics/energy consumed for 22 pages that they charge 4.99 or 5.99 for is no longer a sustainable business practice. “Comics” are a multimedia platform now, and the movies/shows are not dependent on the physical comics to drive eyeballs. I don’t know any young kids (we have teenagers) that still buy comics. I would argue it might be more of a niche market now than ever.

Things like AP’s and D23 are also legacy practices that if invented today would never make it out of the marketing department. It’s capital the company doesn’t “need” to spend to create sales.

Christmas this year is out last trip, it’s a mess of trash/broken animatronics/down rides. The NY Post agrees

https://nypost.com/2022/09/14/disney-world-guests-gripe-of-broken-rides-filth-as-prices-soar/amp/

 

[disneytwincesses]

Admittedly, I'm not a business major. Nonetheless, I don't understand how the obvious answer to increased demand isn't increased supply, in this case, capacity. Why are they not looking seriously at more high-capacity dark rides, park expansions with new flat rides, or even a fifth gate? Why is it that their answer to this is decreased capacity by decreased staffing? As I've said before, Disney has likely lost me for good - no park visits planned, one last cruise for my youngest son, then we're done - but my heart is still broken by the loss of the place that created so many great memories for me and my family. But Iger and Chapek and Damaro don't care about the "legacy fan" like me, so I've got to learn not to care about their product. It's nice of ol' Bob to pay lip service and say that they want everyone, but the actions of the company say something else entirely.

Because in the C-suite mind it is cheaper and easier. You don't have to keep paying to have a large number of imaginers, construction contracts, designers, etc if all you are doing is basic repairs and "improving" some areas/ one new ride. Look at Tron? WDW should be embarrassed by that! It is just a copy of a ride from another park! Then here is Universal building a new park and is constantly changing permits to make bigger and more rides during the process. (watch the new video updates and how many ride patents are being filed for new technology!)
We used to go every year to Disney staying Deluxe or Moderate. Even thought going into DVC in 2019. Something told me not to right now. THANK GOODNESS! We have cruised Disney (2x) and even had an ABD booked and covid happened. The way I was treated and spoken to by ABD fpr made me so upset we never rebooked when our last trip was canceled in 2022. Disney was constantly changing Covid rules and never would come out and answer my questions. When they canceled they offered me only $500 off the NEW way higher price than what I paid two years ago. POOR customer service I felt. We have since planned out the exact same plans and private tours for over half the price. I have heard ABDs are great, but not the way my party was treated.
We were so mad we canceled our Disney Cruise too and booked a week at Universal. What we are spending for a week high end universal room club level, five day tickets, express passes, and cabana at the water park, is what I spent on a four day moderate last year. I did use some Disney VIsa points for a day at Epcot and Halloween party as I am curious how things are going after my friends have reported sad Disney trips lately. I am going when a bunch of schools have their fall break. We are only seven hours away and EVERYONE goes to Disney or on a cruise. This year more of my friends said they were unhappy about Disney lately and booked universal. It will be very interesting when the recession hits next year.
Disney said work should never be done on the parks, but Disney Execs sure don't think so.

 

[AdamsMum]

We don't see Genie+ as a cash grab, we think "Wow, only $20 to skip the lines."

Yes sounds small, but it isn't that for a family, it's that times 4 or 5 for every day of your vacation.

Younger travelers today don't require the high standard of service that people used to enjoy and in some cases are actually uncomfortable with it.

I don't know how I feel about that statement. If it is true and bears out, how will the world develop in the future? Service oriented businesses are a major part of society. I have been told by younger colleagues that they were more comfortable with texting than face to face conversation. So you might be right about that.

The younger generation values experiences over things more than Gen X or Baby Boomers, and Disney is one of those experiences they want to come back to over and over.

The younger generation values experiences more than Gen X or Baby Boomers? You paint a lot of people with that brush. As a baby boomer, I can't speak for Gen X, but I and most of my peers valued experiences greatly. I mean, we all knew someone who had to have a new car in the driveway every year, but today people seem to value having the new Iphone, or some other most up to to date stuff (name your poison).

Now I'm going to sound like I was born in the stone age. On our early Disney vacations we drove 24 hours to get there, stayed off site, ate breakfast in the room, and ate only counter service meals. The kids had a budget to buy a souvenir. It's what we could afford but we loved the Disney experience and enjoying those vacations with our kids. With two working parents, the time spent with the kids was precious. Later, as we became more established, we began to spend more money on site, including buying DVC, table service meals, tours etc. As a repeat traveller, I now spend much more money on WDW vacations than I ever did. This is just my experience, but I don't think I'm alone.

 

[AdamsMum]

IMO it's a big reason Disney does so well right now is that parents continue to take their kids in hopes they will continue the family legacy.

You could be right. My kids like Disney Parks, my DS who's in product design for an online platform (all foreign words to me ), says the Disney attractions are better quality than Universal, loves the animatronics, but is only motivated to go there when I'm offering him a free room in my DVC resort. If that isn't the case he goes to Universal. Higher income not withstanding. My DD always loved Disney, but now with a mortgage, grown up expenses and such she isn't drawn to WDW. I think a lot of my generation get cozy remembering Walt introducing the Wonderful World of Color and WDW was that dream come true.

 

[AdamsMum]

I'm not sure where you got this chart, but if WDW earned $67 million a year we wouldn't be having this conversation.*

* They make that in half a week.

I believe "in millions of $" means 67 million million - i.e. 67 billion

 

[jimmymc]

The younger generation values experiences more than Gen X or Baby Boomers? You paint a lot of people with that brush. As a baby boomer, I can't speak for Gen X, but I and most of my peers valued experiences greatly. I mean, we all knew someone who had to have a new car in the driveway every year, but today people seem to value having the new Iphone, or some other most up to to date stuff (name your poison).

Now I'm going to sound like I was born in the stone age. On our early Disney vacations we drove 24 hours to get there, stayed off site, ate breakfast in the room, and ate only counter service meals. The kids had a budget to buy a souvenir. It's what we could afford but we loved the Disney experience and enjoying those vacations with our kids. With two working parents, the time spent with the kids was precious. Later, as we became more established, we began to spend more money on site, including buying DVC, table service meals, tours etc. As a repeat traveller, I now spend much more money on WDW vacations than I ever did. This is just my experience, but I don't think I'm alone.

That's fair, it's definitely a wide generalization with more factors at play than just younger people wanting to travel more. I was basing the assumption off of things like the boom in low cost airlines, hostel culture in Europe and Asia, and the increasing popularity of studying abroad in college.

Another thing I failed to mention earlier was the millennial attachment to the Disney renaissance movies, Little Mermaid through Tarzan. A lot of us watched those movies over and over as kids and that nostalgia is difficult to ruin, even with terrible theme park experiences.

 

[iwannabdduck]

I think a lot of my generation get cozy remembering Walt introducing the Wonderful World of Color and WDW was that dream come true.

Boy oh boy, did that observation hit a nostalgic nerve with me. I remember as a little boy the Sunday night routine at my house as my parents cycled thru the same TV shows every weekend ... Bonanza, Lawrence Welk and finally Disney's WW of C. For me, soaking in the ambiance of the Disney bubble these days brings back some of those fond family & authentic Disney memories.

Aside from the ridiculous cost increases, one of my saddest observations about Disney these days is how hubris high profile company employees seem to be. If you watch any old documentary narrated by Walter Elias himself, the focus of what he was talking about always seemed to be on "look how neat this is ..." Now if you watch some Disney Imagineer talk, or listen to the latest trailer for A Jedi's Return, the speaker's focus is more on "look how neat I am, or we are ..."

 

[Jrb1979]

That's fair, it's definitely a wide generalization with more factors at play than just younger people wanting to travel more. I was basing the assumption off of things like the boom in low cost airlines, hostel culture in Europe and Asia, and the increasing popularity of studying abroad in college.

Another thing I failed to mention earlier was the millennial attachment to the Disney renaissance movies, Little Mermaid through Tarzan. A lot of us watched those movies over and over as kids and that nostalgia is difficult to ruin, even with terrible theme park experiences.

Yes there is attachment to those Disney movies not e everyone is like that. I'm in my 40's and didn't start getting into theme parks til I was in my 30's. IP has never been a draw for my family. We go the parks to ride new and innovative rides.

 

[DisneyFive]

Yes there is attachment to those Disney movies not e everyone is like that. I'm in my 40's and didn't start getting into theme parks til I was in my 30's. IP has never been a draw for my family. We go the parks to ride new and innovative rides.

I agree. There are so many great headliners (mostly older ones now) at WDW that are don't have Disney IP attached to them. Now it doesn't appear that they will launch any new attractions without IP. This has to box them in to some extent versus letting their imagination be free. On the other hand, Disney Imagineering has shown that they can launch awesome IP based attractions lately.

Personally, I don't need any new attractions to be based on a film, I just need it to be well themed, fun, and have a solid "repeat factor".

Dan

 

[Jrb1979]

I agree. There are so many great headliners (mostly older ones now) at WDW that are don't have Disney IP attached to them. Now it doesn't appear that they will launch any new attractions without IP. This has to box them in to some extent versus letting their imagination be free. On the other hand, Disney Imagineering has shown that they can launch awesome IP based attractions lately.

Personally, I don't need any new attractions to be based on a film, I just need it to be well themed, fun, and have a solid "repeat factor".

Dan

Agreed but 1 thing that I wish they did more of is attractions like Tower of Terror. They lack in well themed thrilling rides.

 

[MICKIMINI]

That's a tough comparison due to other factors. I was very active here in the 00's, much less so since. I can definitely say the boards were much busier 15 years ago.

HOWEVER, many niche message boards like this have lost traffic over the last 10 years to other Social Media options. Some message boards I once frequented are gone now. So the fact that this one is still going fairly strong is testament to what the Dis has built.

Over time though, if the "Legacy" and "Undesirable" fans really are weeded out, it will mean less traffic for sites like this. There will still be trip planning of course, but it will be transitory because most of those seeking advice will be less frequent visitors who don't discuss Disney just for the fun of it. And of course if they somehow morph into bigger fans who visit more often, they will then become "Legacy" and "Undesirable".

It's really a strange situation if you try to figure out the endgame in all of this. They say the Legacy fans don't spend as much per day or per visit, but what about over the course of a year? Who is buying all that merch when it is released? Who actually becomes paid D23 members who are paying for the right to buy exclusive merchandise? Heck, if the Legacy fans are weeded out, and Disney really became a place mostly visited by occasional vacationers, D23 would be dead.

Think of it this way. Where would the comic book industry be if they decided they wanted to shed their loyal crowd to pursue less frequent fans who might be willing to pay more for a fancier comic book once in awhile.

If Disney continues to double down on this strategy, it's going to be very interesting to see if it is sustainable over the long term. Legacy fans may not spend as much on a given day or in a given week, but over the course of a year? Their lifetimes?

...and their kids lifetimes and so on. We tend to pass it on.