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Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

0.75mi WU, 6mi MT, 0.5mi CD. Tried eating half a pbj right before the run. Stomach felt a little weird around mile 5, but not in a bad way if that makes sense. I’ll probably throw a sandwich in my vest on race day if I just can’t stand to drink more tailwind/eat more gu

attaching a screen shot of the splits with elevation. This run was really weird. Decided to try to keep around 12:05:12:10 for the first part and then keep it close to actual MT pace of 11:55.
WU and first mile felt great. Miles 2 and 3 felt like I was running in mud/sand/whatever makes your legs so “I don’t wanna.” And then suddenly it was all better and I found my groove. Turns out my groove was a little too fast, but 🤷🏻‍♀️
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5mi LR today. I guess 13:00 pace is just really weird for me to do intervals at my usual breaks. I had everything set for 1:15/0:30 and kept running more like 12:50-12:55 and compensating a little in the last .33mi to get the pace slower. 🤦🏻‍♀️

SIL opted to have her packet shipped to her, and received her bib and shirt yesterday, putting both of us back into “holy bleep we are actually doing this?!” mode.
 
So my tentative plan for the week (because I don’t want to screw up my prep and make race day harder because I made a rookie mistake):

Training plan has me running Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, which I will obviously do.

Hydration: (this is a tricky one for me) continue drinking my usual 80ish oz per day and then up it to about 120 on Wednesday and a Thursday, and cut it back to “normal” on Friday after lunch. I’m trying to keep from having to stop at every bathroom along the course.

Nutrition: carb up on Thursday (will check the post I have saved for what the target is for that). Small “meals” throughout the day on Friday. Oatmeal and a banana for breakfast on Saturday, some sort of race fuel 30min before the race starts.

And then on race day: 7:30 start time plus a 30min drive means I'll probably get up around 5-515 and leave no later than 630 since I'm doing packet pick up on Friday afternoon.

Race warm up: just use the first 2-3 miles as warmup, which should (theoretically) help prevent me from going out too fast? Different strategy?

Pacing: This part is what makes me the most nervous because this race has a 6 hour limit which is basically 13:45 pace (which has been my EA/B pace for training.) The wording used to say runners *may* be removed from the course but that is gone now and it simply says the course closes to all racers at 1:30. My pacing chart says MT is 11:55. Trusting my training to get me through it being foremost, should I have a strategy? Even a loose one? Ideas? I’m definitely open to suggestions here. I also think that small goals or checkpoints could be good (like making it to the half way point before 10:30am, etc) or potentially disastrous if the first half is rough and I’m really close to that 3 hour mark at half way....that could crush my mindset

Miles approximately 2-4 and 22-24 are a great big hill with around 260ft change in elevation each.

I know they were looking for pacers, but I do not know if they found any.

In-race nutrition: something 30min before the race (22g carbs). I’ll have 2 8oz soft flasks with a full packet of tailwind in each (one caffeinated, one not) so that’s 100g carbs. Some pretzels for the back half (let’s call that 20 carbs). I’m also packing half a pbj (20-30 carbs?) Plus a couple of other gu packets in case I need them.

Am I forgetting anything else?
 
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Hydration: (this is a tricky one for me) continue drinking my usual 80ish oz per day and then up it to about 120 on Wednesday and a Thursday, and cut it back to “normal” on Friday after lunch. I’m trying to keep from having to stop at every bathroom along the course.

Is this a routine you've practiced in training that you know works for you? Water takes about 10-20 min to move out of the stomach and into the intestines. You will urinate within about 45-60 min. So if you're trying to limit your urination on course it's going to be 99% determined by what you drink morning of the race. My practiced rule for myself is no liquids 120 min before the last time I reasonably believe I can use a bathroom, up until 15 min prior to the race. At 15 min prior to the race, the liquid you drink has almost no chance to reach the bladder. I've done this for probably 40+ races and it has failed me only once. Before this method, I did have more issues using the bathrooms during races.

Nutrition: carb up on Thursday (will check the post I have saved for what the target is for that). Small “meals” throughout the day on Friday. Oatmeal and a banana for breakfast on Saturday, some sort of race fuel 30min before the race starts.

Is this a routine you've practiced in training, specifically a carb target you're aiming for. If you didn't practice in training, I'd be hesitant to do it before the big day.

Race warm up: just use the first 2-3 miles as warmup, which should (theoretically) help prevent me from going out too fast? Different strategy?

Pacing: This part is what makes me the most nervous because this race has a 6 hour limit which is basically 13:45 pace (which has been my EA/B pace for training.) The wording used to say runners *may* be removed from the course but that is gone now and it simply says the course closes to all racers at 1:30. My pacing chart says MT is 11:55. Trusting my training to get me through it being foremost, should I have a strategy? Even a loose one? Ideas? I’m definitely open to suggestions here. I also think that small goals or checkpoints could be good (like making it to the half way point before 10:30am, etc) or potentially disastrous if the first half is rough and I’m really close to that 3 hour mark at half way....that could crush my mindset

Miles approximately 2-4 and 22-24 are a great big hill with around 260ft change in elevation each.

I know they were looking for pacers, but I do not know if they found any.

Save your pacing strategy for Wed of this week when you have a very good look at the weather. Weather will be a large determining factor for pacing decisions. Also, you'll use the Strava Premium member with GAP data to determine good pacing choices for individual miles along the way. The MT of 11:55 should be considered a best case scenario. I would not anticipate that will be your likely pace on race day as only about 6% of runners hit that "ideal" time. Those marathon conversion race calculators have very large asterisks next to them. The slower you go to your relative fitness level, the "easier" it will be. So without seeing the course again or weather, I'd be aiming closer to 13 min/miles than 12 min/miles.

In-race nutrition: something 30min before the race (22g carbs). I’ll have 2 8oz soft flasks with a full packet of tailwind in each (one caffeinated, one not) so that’s 100g carbs. Some pretzels for the back half (let’s call that 20 carbs). I’m also packing half a pbj (20-30 carbs?) Plus a couple of other gu packets in case I need them.

Is this a routine you've practiced in training?


****

I think you're getting the picture here, but the adage of "nothing new on race day" exists for a reason. Everything you do on race day should be a tried and true method from training. You can maybe have "emergency" ideas, but I wouldn't go into the race planning on doing anything you haven't already done in the last several months.
 


Hydration: (this is a tricky one for me) continue drinking my usual 80ish oz per day and then up it to about 120 on Wednesday and a Thursday, and cut it back to “normal” on Friday after lunch. I’m trying to keep from having to stop at every bathroom along the course.
Is this a routine you've practiced in training that you know works for you? Water takes about 10-20 min to move out of the stomach and into the intestines. You will urinate within about 45-60 min. So if you're trying to limit your urination on course it's going to be 99% determined by what you drink morning of the race. My practiced rule for myself is no liquids 120 min before the last time I reasonably believe I can use a bathroom, up until 15 min prior to the race. At 15 min prior to the race, the liquid you drink has almost no chance to reach the bladder. I've done this for probably 40+ races and it has failed me only once. Before this method, I did have more issues using the bathrooms during races.

I have found that I need to not drink anything for about 3 hours before I run (which would be 430 in the morning). So balancing being well hydrated with making bathroom stops is going to be interesting.


Nutrition: carb up on Thursday (will check the post I have saved for what the target is for that). Small “meals” throughout the day on Friday. Oatmeal and a banana for breakfast on Saturday, some sort of race fuel 30min before the race starts.

Is this a routine you've practiced in training, specifically a carb target you're aiming for. If you didn't practice in training, I'd be hesitant to do it before the big day.

The breakfast is what I've done for all of my races this spring/summer. Since my longest runs have topped out at around 12-13 miles, I admittedly haven't done a really targeted "carb load" day before one of those runs....mostly just gave myself permission to eat more carbs overall.


Save your pacing strategy for Wed of this week when you have a very good look at the weather. Weather will be a large determining factor for pacing decisions. Also, you'll use the Strava Premium member with GAP data to determine good pacing choices for individual miles along the way. The MT of 11:55 should be considered a best case scenario. I would not anticipate that will be your likely pace on race day as only about 6% of runners hit that "ideal" time. Those marathon conversion race calculators have very large asterisks next to them. The slower you go to your relative fitness level, the "easier" it will be. So without seeing the course again or weather, I'd be aiming closer to 13 min/miles than 12 min/miles.
OK. I was hoping to start wrapping my brain around something sooner, but Lake Michigan definitely can throw a giant wrench into the weather.


In-race nutrition: something 30min before the race (22g carbs). I’ll have 2 8oz soft flasks with a full packet of tailwind in each (one caffeinated, one not) so that’s 100g carbs. Some pretzels for the back half (let’s call that 20 carbs). I’m also packing half a pbj (20-30 carbs?) Plus a couple of other gu packets in case I need them.

Is this a routine you've practiced in training?

Yes. I have done all of these things in training.


****
I think you're getting the picture here, but the adage of "nothing new on race day" exists for a reason. Everything you do on race day should be a tried and true method from training. You can maybe have "emergency" ideas, but I wouldn't go into the race planning on doing anything you haven't already done in the last several months.
I am the queen of emergency back up plans and contingencies. My back up plans have back up plans. It drives my husband nuts sometimes, but I absolutely HATE having to try to come up with changes on the fly when other things are taking up a lot of my mental bandwidth.
 
This is the approximate course in Garmin. They only had it on MMR, so I used that map and drew it with Garmin Connect. The mileage didn't come out correct, but the other courses that were already in GC didn't have the little loop at the top left of the course.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/course/79091587

I don't have permission to view your course, but how does it compare to this one from Strava:

https://www.strava.com/activities/1888115177/overview
I have found that I need to not drink anything for about 3 hours before I run (which would be 430 in the morning). So balancing being well hydrated with making bathroom stops is going to be interesting.

And when you did no drinking within 3 hrs of starting the run, you typically had no bathroom urges, correct? And when that's the case, how often were you dehydrated during/after the run following your planned hydration strategy?

Since my longest runs have topped out at around 12-13 miles, I admittedly haven't done a really targeted "carb load" day before one of those runs....mostly just gave myself permission to eat more carbs overall.

Since you haven't practiced it, then I would plan to do the same as you've done prior. Eat more carbs overall, but nothing specific with a certain goal number in mind.

I am the queen of emergency back up plans and contingencies. My back up plans have back up plans. It drives my husband nuts sometimes, but I absolutely HATE having to try to come up with changes on the fly when other things are taking up a lot of my mental bandwidth.

That can be good and bad. During the race itself, have the motto of leaving all evaluations of decisions until AFTER the race is over. No second guessing. Every decision no matter how wildly bad it is, is the right decision in the middle of the race. See a cougar on the course and decide to fist fight it, that's the right decision. It's my experience with others that second guessing mid-run almost always only leads to negative thoughts. Which leads to loss of motivation. Which leads to increased perception of effort. Do everything you can to avoid negative thoughts. Lots of positive self-talk. No matter how grim things may seem, keep a smile on your face.

Once the race is over, and you decompress for a few hours/days, then you can start thinking about the choices you made.
 


That is the same course.

I don’t think I ever got dehydrated to a point where it was affecting my run, with the exception of the half I did in the beginning of august, and there was a lot more than just dehydration going on. The thing about hydration that is giving my pause is that I do basically all my training the the middle of the day, and NOT first thing in the morning.

I do realize that I’m overthinking this. It’s what I do. I appreciate your patience.
 
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I don’t think I ever got dehydrated to a point where it was affecting my run, with the exception of the half I did in the beginning of august, and there was a lot more than just dehydration going on. The thing about hydration that is giving my pause is that I do basically all my training the the middle of the day, and NOT first thing in the morning.

Well, like you said, it's the balance between being hydrated and having the urge to use the bathroom mid-run. For me, and I can only speak for myself on this one, if I had to choose between the two, I'd go with no drinking for 180 min prior to the run. Because having the urge to go mid-run will bother you until you find a place to go, and then you'll lose time in the bathroom as well. Whereas, I can do my absolute best on course to make sure I stay well hydrated.

That is the same course.

Perfect. So mile 3-4 show us that while our goal might be a 13 min/mile for the whole run. If you tried to do a 13 min/mile at Mile 3 or 4 it could be disastrous as those are tough miles. The difference between pace and GAP for this runner is 23 and 32 sec/mile on each of those. So that means instead of 13:00, you'd want to be at least slower than 13:23 or 13:32 for it to "feel" like 13:00. So those two miles are going to be ones where you're really going to have to be comfortable seeing your pace potentially slip beyond the 13:45 limit. As long as they're not actively sweeping along the way (which is unusual but not impossible), then it's ok to let your pace go below the "limit". But we'll do nitty gritty after Wednesday.
 
And now there is rain in the forecast.

Screen Shot 2021-09-28 at 8.16.40 AM.png

Still only a 35% chance. So it's more likely not to be raining than it is to be raining. And at a minimum, that means no sun. Which is great. But looking pretty unlucky in terms of T+D compared to the rest of the 10 day forecast. But even a peak of T+D 126 is much much better than your HM a few months ago. Maximal effort M Tempo would be a 12:09 min/mile. So still plenty of headroom compared to the maximal time limit of 13:45 pace.
 
Since Saturday popped up on the 10day forecast it was supposed to be dry every day. I knew that wouldn't hold up, and sure enough today they added rain in. Which, all things considered, they could say we have a 30% chance of rain every day because they just don't ever know what the weather is going to do over the lake, and if the rain that DOES come over the lake will make it on land (many times it breaks up just off shore.) I fully expect the forecast to be quite a bit different by Friday.
 
Yesterday: 4mi EB + strides. With the stroller. Felt weird again until about the 3 mile mark. If that's how long it actually takes my body to fully warm up (or maybe that's just how long it takes for endorphins) does that mean I'm a "REAL" runner? :crazy:

Forecast for Saturday has changed, as I knew it would, and not in the right direction.

608386
 
Oh look! It changed again. And I’m sure it’ll be different tomorrow, and could change at 8am Saturday morning. The temperature range has stayed pretty stable, but there’s a small chance of rain that will likely continue to get pushed around for when it may arrive or not arrive at all. Edited to add: the wind seems like it'll be pretty insignificant, but it would be basically a tailwind for the first half, and a headwind for the second half.
608725

when you have time, I think I’m ready for my “distance management plan” 😂
 
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Alright, so we'll plan on a T+D of 132. Thankfully, it looks like there should be some decent cloud cover. Here's hoping. A T+D of 132 is a 2.5% adjustment.

In August you ran a HM in 2:51 in a T+D of 153. So adjusted that would have been a 2:43 HM under ideal conditions (which btw your May HM of 2:49 was ideal conditions and thus your August HM was a better performance). Under the same conditions as the Marathon, you're looking at a 2:47 HM.

Screen Shot 2021-09-30 at 9.11.21 AM.png

That performance predicts:

6% chance of 5:48 marathon or better
10% chance of 5:50 marathon or better
25% chance of 5:58 marathon or better
50% chance of 6:10 marathon or better

You also ran a 33:49 5k at a T+D of 139. So that's like running a 33:39 under the same conditions as the Marathon. That equates to:

Screen Shot 2021-09-30 at 9.18.18 AM.png

6% chance of 5:22 marathon or better
10% chance of 5:29 marathon or better
25% chance of 5:51 marathon or better
50% chance of 6:31 marathon or better

You see a bigger spread because a 5k is less indicative than a HM based on the distance comparison to a M. But I'd say the 5:51 and 5:58 guesses are in-line with each other. So I think we should aim for a 5:45-5:50 finish time (13:09-13:21).

We'll use this runner for split adjustment purposes:

https://www.strava.com/activities/1888115177/overview
One bonus, it looks like all three runners on Strava show that GPS measured about 25.8-26.0 miles, which gains us a few precious seconds.

Screen Shot 2021-09-30 at 9.29.24 AM.png

These paces are very close to your adjusted LR pace for the conditions (13:19). So my suggestion is to treat the pacing the same. Use your same run/walk intervals, with the goal of staying in the pace window laid out above for each mile split. You can ABSOLUTELY go slower than these if you feel the need to, especially early on. Don't force it. But under absolutely no circumstances should you go faster than anything listed here until AT LEAST Mile 20.

This is a challenging course with tons of variability in the miles based on elevation changes. Miles 3, 4 and 22 are especially challenging. Since miles 3 and 4 occur so early in the race, they are of vital importance. Do NOT run these too fast as that will make the remainder of the race that much more difficult. Take them very easy and calmly. This course is dead even in terms of split pacing. The first half is projected 2:52:09-2:54:45 and the second half 2:52:10-2:54:46.

The race will feel harder towards the end. That is completely normal. I've done 15 marathons to date. And only once did it feel easier in Miles 17-20 than it did at other times in the race. So expect that it will be hard and tough and painful. And that the difficulty of the race will ramp up in the last 3-4-5-6 miles. But you've done those distances plenty of times in training. And you can do them again at the end of the marathon.

In 2019, two runners finished over 6 hours. In 2018, two runners finished over 6 hours. In 2017, six runners finished over 6 hours. Twice there have been people who finished in 7 hours. So don't let the 6 hour time limit play mind games with you. Run your race and finish at your pace. If that's over 6 hours, so be it. Doing anything more than what your body can do on that day, especially early on, will be destructive to your chances of finishing. You CAN do this. I know you can do hard things. And this will be hard. Mentally accept that going into it, and it will make it that much easier. You've birthed a child. Running a marathon is not as hard as birthing a child. Stay strong. Smile. Enjoy your first marathon. Something will inevitably go wrong during the race. Let it wash over you and do not dwell on it.

Think of all the challenges you went through just to get to the starting line. A race is not a final exam/test. A race is a celebration of all the training you've done to get there. It's the party at the end, and not an assessment of you as a person or as a runner. So many things can happen in a race. So enjoy your victory lap for completing the training!

Thoughts?
 
Alright, so we'll plan on a T+D of 132. Thankfully, it looks like there should be some decent cloud cover. Here's hoping. A T+D of 132 is a 2.5% adjustment.

In August you ran a HM in 2:51 in a T+D of 153. So adjusted that would have been a 2:43 HM under ideal conditions (which btw your May HM of 2:49 was ideal conditions and thus your August HM was a better performance). Under the same conditions as the Marathon, you're looking at a 2:47 HM.

View attachment 608790

That performance predicts:

6% chance of 5:48 marathon or better
10% chance of 5:50 marathon or better
25% chance of 5:58 marathon or better
50% chance of 6:10 marathon or better

You also ran a 33:49 5k at a T+D of 139. So that's like running a 33:39 under the same conditions as the Marathon. That equates to:

View attachment 608797

6% chance of 5:22 marathon or better
10% chance of 5:29 marathon or better
25% chance of 5:51 marathon or better
50% chance of 6:31 marathon or better

You see a bigger spread because a 5k is less indicative than a HM based on the distance comparison to a M. But I'd say the 5:51 and 5:58 guesses are in-line with each other. So I think we should aim for a 5:45-5:50 finish time (13:09-13:21).

I did SO MANY THINGS WRONG in that 2nd HM. I know that with everything factored in it was a "better" run but it really felt like a ****show at the time. I'm a lot more confident in not falling apart like I did in that run and the one in May using intervals (which I switched to in the middle of both those runs, on the fly, with no real plan for duration of each.)

I would be lying if I didn't say that those finish times for the 50% chance didn't freak me out a LOT. As you pointed out, they have allowed finishers a little past the 6hr mark in recent years, but this still being covid and everything that entails.....I don't know what that will look like this year. 13:21 is somewhat close to what I've been running my EB at all summer (especially if you factor in the stroller) so that pace is definitely something that, without intervals, I know the feel of well. What I don't know, is what my intervals need adjusted down to for that pace since I've done almost everything over 13:00 as continuous and anything faster with intervals. I could work that out with today's run. DS2 doesn't have practice, so he can babysit for me when he gets home from school and I can run without the stroller. I'm guessing it's going to be more like 60/30 when I've been doing 75/30 for LR and 105/30 for MT.


One bonus, it looks like all three runners on Strava show that GPS measured about 25.8-26.0 miles, which gains us a few precious seconds.

View attachment 608800

These paces are very close to your adjusted LR pace for the conditions (13:19). So my suggestion is to treat the pacing the same. Use your same run/walk intervals, with the goal of staying in the pace window laid out above for each mile split. You can ABSOLUTELY go slower than these if you feel the need to, especially early on. Don't force it. But under absolutely no circumstances should you go faster than anything listed here until AT LEAST Mile 20.
my watch keeps lap average pace in 5 second increments, so if I shoot for 13:15 I should stay within the ranges, and allow for more times on the uphills (which I have been considering walking that huge hill at 3-4/22, but IDK if that might use up too much of my 6hr limit buffer.)


Think of all the challenges you went through just to get to the starting line. A race is not a final exam/test. A race is a celebration of all the training you've done to get there. It's the party at the end, and not an assessment of you as a person or as a runner. So many things can happen in a race. So enjoy your victory lap for completing the training!
This is going to be really important for me to remember.
 
I would be lying if I didn't say that those finish times for the 50% chance didn't freak me out a LOT.

It's important to remember that that average 50% finisher is all people who have a similar HM performance. But not everyone follows a good training plan. So 50% of people fall in that range, but you trained far better, in my opinion, than the vast majority of those people. Historically, I see my marathon'ers finish in the top 25% relatively speaking. That's why I chose that range as our goal. Not all of them do, I still see a bell shaped curve. I've seen a handful beat the 6% number, and a handful perform worse than the 25% number. But most fall into that 10-25% range.

All you can ask of yourself is to do your best. Your best today might be better or worse than yesterday or tomorrow. But that doesn't matter. All that matters is your best today.

my watch keeps lap average pace in 5 second increments, so if I shoot for 13:15 I should stay within the ranges, and allow for more times on the uphills (which I have been considering walking that huge hill at 3-4/22, but IDK if that might use up too much of my 6hr limit buffer.)

Sounds like a good strategy. I would have zero qualms about walking up Mile 3-4 if you felt the need to in the moment. There's plenty of buffer. Those miles being so early and so challenging means take it easy and save the legs for later. It's much like my recent 10k, where the most challenging aspect of the course was right near the start. The optimal strategy is to just take it nice and easy, and allow your legs to do the work later. A few seconds saved (by going too fast on the hills) will cost you minutes on the back end of a race if you blow up.
 
what will ALSO be interesting on Saturday is the wedding we are supposed to attend at 4pm. I have already warned DH that there is a very good chance that I will fall asleep at the reception, and he may have to wheel me out to the car to come home.
 
what will ALSO be interesting on Saturday is the wedding we are supposed to attend at 4pm. I have already warned DH that there is a very good chance that I will fall asleep at the reception, and he may have to wheel me out to the car to come home.

Ooof! Take care of yourself please. No matter how slow you go, you're going to be in rough shape after the race. Like difficulty walking up/down stairs. Putting on clothes is a challenge. Getting up from a chair.
 
Oh for sure. And if I'm feeling REALLY awful right away, he will go by himself. Compression socks will go on ASAP after the race, I've made smart footwear plans, etc. I figure if people can run dopey and still go the the parks that I can run on Saturday and then go sit at a wedding reception.

And holy crap. Packet pickup is tomorrow.
 

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