Euthanasia/Assisted Suicide

[DawnCt1]

This to me becomes a slippery slope. I remember reading an article about assisted suicide in Holland. There were several cases mentioned where it was done agains the person's wishes to speed things up. One case that really stuck with me was that of a very devout Catholic woman. She was in pain but did not want to be euthanized. Her doctor came in to check on her and found out another doctor had given her a lethal dose of drugs because he "needed the bed." Now, she only had days left at most, but that does not excuse the doctor. Apparently this type of behavior isn't as uncommon as one would think over there.

After really digging deep and assessing my own views on assisted suicide, I have also come to the conclusion that when the time comes, I will allow my pets to die a natural death with dignity at home. Putting my childhood dog and cat to sleep feels too much like murder.

I will admit that I have never seen anybody who suffered from a condition to the extent that they wanted this option. Perhaps if I had it would change my mind, but at this point I believe it is highly unethical.

I remember those examples and I am deeply concerned about when the 'right to die' becomes the 'duty to die'. In Holland, there were terminally ill patients that were reminded that others, younger and 'salvagable" were waiting for their beds.

All of my pets have died of natural causes. My last little toy poodle, Chelsea died in our arms. She was almost 17, she had heart failure but she slept away peacefully. She was comfortable, she wasn't frightened and she died in her home.

I am not Catholic, but I remember the death of Pope John Paul II, who availed himself of reasonable medical treatment. I think he taught us all a lesson, that life is to be valued and suffering is what prepares us to leave this earth.

 

[bumbershoot]

Several doctors recounted times when the family members got tired of caring for a sick relative and and really pushed them into a decision they were not ready for.

Having been around as the doctors and nurses forced a decision on my husband's family for his father, I can say that doctors push relatives even though it's NOT legal in our state. They couldn't figure out how to get him out from under the ventilator sedation without him becoming violent, so they just pushed taking him off the ventilator. They literally changed their tune after one day. They had been talking "yay yay" he's coming off the ventilator and this is how we do it, then it was "oh he gets so violent and he thrashes when we lower the sedation, we can't take him off the ventilator, we probably won't be able to do it and every moment he's on it means he can't come off of it, so why don't we just turn it off". It was sickening, and hubby and I couldn't figure out how to explain how disgusting it was to MIL and the elder brother.

NOW, 2 years later, they regret their decision to turn it off, but the pressure on them was tremendous from the staff (horrid hospital, st joseph medical center here in tacoma, they nearly killed me and DID kill FIL), and MIL and eldest son just couldn't get their heads out of their butts long enough to understand what we were saying.

It's really REALLY bad to have that regret. Hubby and I don't, we tried HARD to get the staff to hear us and to get MIL and BIL to hear us. We did everything we could. MIL and BIL have to live with their decision to just flip the switch instead of urge the staff to *do their jobs* and DEAL with an 80 year old man being "violent" as they lowered the sedation.

That's not a regret I'm comfy with, and I would HATE to realize "um, that's not what I want to do" AFTER giving myself a lethal injection.


And I hate it when people euthanise animals, too, I think it's horrible. But I guess I have just a bit more faith in the body's healing process than others do, and if there's someone who shows the body's ability, it's hubby, who healed a brain tumor using NO western medicine, and has gone from a blood sugar of 443 one scary night in September, got a lovely diagnosis, and the last two days he's hit the high 80s, without doing anything but change his diet. That and the nastiness I've seen and experienced (might want to mention that my mom died due to a medical error, misdiagnosis, and most importantly MISSED diagnosis) make me absolute that I couldn't end my life, another life, or a pet's life (though I've decided to just not have pets b/c I can't stand the death after 7-15ish years for dogs and cats).

That said, I didn't vote against it in WA; just b/c I don't want to be a part of it doesn't mean I want to stop others from doing it.

It's legal in Oregon, and it's quite a process. It's rarely used and even when a prescription is given, often it's still not used - sufferers sometimes feel comforted just knowing it's an option that they have ready if it gets too bad.

I can totally see that as being comforting. It's there, you can use it, you can relax now.

 

[Lanshark]

I will admit that I have never seen anybody who suffered from a condition to the extent that they wanted this option. Perhaps if I had it would change my mind, but at this point I believe it is highly unethical.

I have seen it and firmly believe it should be made an option.

 

[Cool-Beans]

I support people's right to die. It isn't like they can't pick up a gun, but it is easier to go in and have someone administer drugs. It's also less messy.

It should always the decision of the patient or the patient's family, though. Of course.

I've given people doses of morphine that I knew would end their lives. When you know you're doing it to stop suffering, it isn't hard at all. Given the choice between ending suffering by giving the drug or causing suffering by witholding it, I would always choose to give the drug.

 

[chisnpeke]

I think it's too much like suicide. Regardless of suffering I wouldn't support a family member who did it because in the end they are taking their own life.

I have seen my grandparents die from cancer and I know it hurts, but I think they would have elected to die naturally.

 

[Amy&Dan]

I used to think no way, no how could I agree with this. But my life changed when my mom got sick and so did my opinion on this matter.

I was my mother's sole caregiver in the last weeks of her life. Before we got hospice, seeing her suffer as she was , well it was horrible. I hope I NEVER have to see anyone I love suffer like that again. It will haunt me all of my days.

We got her pain under control. But it took awhile and I have to say before that happened I was about ready to do whatever it took to end what she was going through. We got her comfortable and she slipped away on her own after about a week on hospice. Thank God.

Luckily I had people (hospice)to help me with this. Who told me how much I could safely give and she responded very well to this course of treatment. If she hadn't, I am not sure what I would have done. Probably whatever it took. Because, let me tell you people, when your mother, the person who brought you into this world, who helped you through all the hurts of your life, looks up at you, begging you to help her, it will take you to a place you never could have imagined.

I'll also add that my mother lived for seven years with this disease. So we tried it all, conventional medicine, and less conventional methods. And we got those seven years and we are thankful. But believe me, when the end is reached, it becomes apparent that the limit has been reached. Again, I didn't have to do this for my mother but I can certainly understand how some people can and do indeed do whatever it takes to end such suffering. There are no absolutes in my book and no easy answers.

That stuff in Holland just sounds like a whole different thing to me. Again, there are just no black and white answers to this issue.

 

[Amy&Dan]

And I hate it when people euthanise animals, too, I think it's horrible. But I guess I have just a bit more faith in the body's healing process than others do,

Thats a really strong statement. I have to say, I have loved my dogs about as much as any other member of my family. Having my 13 year old beagle put down two years ago was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. But I know it was the right thing to do. It was horrible to see him suffer. I sometimes look at the last picture I snapped of him, about six months before he died, and it hurts me to see him looking so bad, without the light in his eyes he always had. I have guilt not for putting him down, but rather for allowing him to suffer like he did the last year of his life.

I think its wonderful your husband beat the odds. I love to hear those stories. But please don't assign those of us who don't get such happy endings with our loved ones, whether they are immediate family members, or furry ones, horrible intentions. It really hurts to hear anyone say that.

 

[phragmipedium]

Thats a really strong statement. I have to say, I have loved my dogs about as much as any other member of my family. Having my 13 year old beagle put down two years ago was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. But I know it was the right thing to do. It was horrible to see him suffer. I sometimes look at the last picture I snapped of him, about six months before he died, and it hurts me to see him looking so bad, without the light in his eyes he always had. I have guilt not for putting him down, but rather for allowing him to suffer like he did the last year of his life.

I think its wonderful your husband beat the odds. I love to hear those stories. But please don't assign those of us who don't get such happy endings with our loved ones, whether they are immediate family members, or furry ones, horrible intentions. It really hurts to hear anyone say that.

ITA. The body has an amazing capacity to heal, but everybody dies sometime. Unfortunately, not everyone or everything is able to pass away peacefully in their sleep of old age. When someone is to a hospice stage, acknowledging that their time is coming is not disavowing the body's ability to heal in general - it's being realistic and providing comfort care.

I also am a strong proponent of euthanasia for animals when necessary. I didn't even realize that some were against this. My dog growing up, a miniature poodle, was my best pal. It was extremely difficult as he got older and slowly lost his hearing, sight, memory and bathroom controls. We probably let things go longer than they should have and I know that he was in some pain when we finally put him down. It's incredibly difficult, but they offer unconditional love in their lifetime - in many cases, euthanasia is the last loving act you can perform for them. I can't even bear to think about the end for my beloved labs and cats, but I hope that I can make it easier for them when it comes - I would never want them to suffer because I selfishly didn't want them to leave me. I understand being upset about pets being euthanized in their youth for treatable conditions with reasonable expectations for success, but easing a pet from this world when they are at the end of their life and in pain is a kindness, not a cruelty. I think suggesting that people who go through this difficult experience for their pets have poor intentions or are not faithful enough is unbelievably insensitive.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

My mom and I talk about this.

She worked in a nursing home and had to watch people SUFFER through doctors orders of witholding food and water.

And that is legal.

So for those of you that think euthansia doesn't go on, you are mistaken. It may be "passive euthansia" but they are killing these people through witholding food and water.

 

[Acklander]

I think it's a personal choice between the family, the person and the doctor. I have a living will and my family is well aware that I don't want to live on machines. If I have a painful death, I'm hoping I'm strong enough to go thru the hand I've been dealt, but if I'm not I hope others understand the choices I make without second guessing or judging me.

 

[happygirl]

I think people should be able to make this decision if they want to make it.

 

[Stitchfans]

I find it odd that we allow our pets to die with dignity, but not our parents.

I watched both of my parents die (its a process not an event) and I am possitive neither one of the would ever have choosen to do it, but if they had I would have supported them in their choice.

I agree with this 100%. I have always been for this. I always told my family that under no circumstances did I want to be living off of a machine. If they legally can do it- pull the plug. I know that isn't the same with what we are talking about, but I feel a person has the right to die with dignity.

 

[C.Ann]

I believe that euthanasia should be an option we can state in an advanced directive just as we can choose to not be kept alive by artificial means.

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I think this is an excellent idea!

I've watched many family members die a horrible, agonizing death - but of course the freshest one in my mind is my DH - in 2005.. Six days of begging to die.. Six days of closing his eyes, opening them back up again, looking at me and saying, "Is it over yet? I just want to DIE.. I CAN'T do this anymore.."

He was sick for 10+ years - cancer and a multitude of other serious (and painful) medical issues.. Not once did he ever complain.. Not a single, solitary time.. Why? Because he was an amazingly strong man - a former Marine - and in his own words, "Marines can take anything.."

So what kind of pain do you think he was in - 24 hours a day - for six long days - that caused him to BEG to die??? To ask me over and over and over again if it was "over yet"..

I wouldn't wish that on a dog - a rat - an alligator that just tore off my arm - why should ANY human have to go through that kind of tortue and suffering.. We send people to jail in this country for torturing people, yet we allow it to go on in the medical field every minute of every day..

Let the patient list it in their advanced directive and then you don't have to worry about "Uncle Joe" wanting to bump you off so he can get his inheritance early - or the hospital "needing the bed"..

 

[CathrynRose]

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I think this is an excellent idea!

I've watched many family members die a horrible, agonizing death - but of course the freshest one in my mind is my DH - in 2005.. Six days of begging to die.. Six days of closing his eyes, opening them back up again, looking at me and saying, "Is it over yet? I just want to DIE.. I CAN'T do this anymore.."

He was sick for 10+ years - cancer and a multitude of other serious (and painful) medical issues.. Not once did he ever complain.. Not a single, solitary time.. Why? Because he was an amazingly strong man - a former Marine - and in his own words, "Marines can take anything.."

So what kind of pain do you think he was in - 24 hours a day - for six long days - that caused him to BEG to die??? To ask me over and over and over again if it was "over yet"..

I wouldn't wish that on a dog - a rat - an alligator that just tore off my arm - why should ANY human have to go through that kind of tortue and suffering.. We send people to jail in this country for torturing people, yet we allow it to go on in the medical field every minute of every day..

Let the patient list it in their advanced directive and then you don't have to worry about "Uncle Joe" wanting to bump you off so he can get his inheritance early - or the hospital "needing the bed"..

 

[hiwaygal]

I support a person's choice to end his or her life as he or she sees fit.

 

[jacksonsmom]

Touchy subject for me as my father is currently battling ALS. It is a disease I wish on no one.
My dad was always a fit and strong type of guy, one of those guys that would lend a hand to a neighbor or a friend in need and like to build things.

ALS has slowly taken away everything thing, he can not walk, talk, eat (has a feeding tube), can not use his hands or even left his arms, which means he needs people to lift him on to the porta potty and clean him up afterwards. He can not even wipe his own nose or change the TV channel. He can not brush his own teeth or hair.
All he can do is lay in bed or sit in the wheelchair and WAIT for someone to move him or change the channel for him. He is 110% dependent on other people. Just over the last 2 months he has now lost his ability to talk. All his words are slurred.
Yes his mind is still there but he is trapped in his body. This disease is a death sentence and from the moment you are daignosed with it you are waiting to die and wondering when it is going to take away from ability to breathe.

Would I support euthanasia if my dad requested it? It would be extremely hard, but yes I would. My dad with ALS is not the dad I grew up with. Yes, of course he is my dad and I love him all the same, It's like I have two different dads, the one I grew up with that would lift me on his shoulders when I was little or played pac-man on Atari with me and the one that is palazyed with ALS.

Watching someone slowly slip away from such a horrible disease really opens your eyes to a lot of things.

 

[TheZue]

I agree that it should be an advance directive issue that is organized by a lawyer. And the person should be required to have a full psych assessment when they write it up. I would even include in mine if I had dementia and no longer knew my children and my husband to take me off any and all meds that were extending my life. I don't want to be warehoused somewhere after I no longer remember who I am any longer than I have to be.

 

[Goofyluver]

Touchy subject for me as my father is currently battling ALS. It is a disease I wish on no one.
My dad was always a fit and strong type of guy, one of those guys that would lend a hand to a neighbor or a friend in need and like to build things.

ALS has slowly taken away everything thing, he can not walk, talk, eat (has a feeding tube), can not use his hands or even left his arms, which means he needs people to lift him on to the porta potty and clean him up afterwards. He can not even wipe his own nose or change the TV channel. He can not brush his own teeth or hair.
All he can do is lay in bed or sit in the wheelchair and WAIT for someone to move him or change the channel for him. He is 110% dependent on other people. Just over the last 2 months he has now lost his ability to talk. All his words are slurred.
Yes his mind is still there but he is trapped in his body. This disease is a death sentence and from the moment you are daignosed with it you are waiting to die and wondering when it is going to take away from ability to breathe.

Would I support euthanasia if my dad requested it? It would be extremely hard, but yes I would. My dad with ALS is not the dad I grew up with. Yes, of course he is my dad and I love him all the same, It's like I have two different dads, the one I grew up with that would lift me on his shoulders when I was little or played pac-man on Atari with me and the one that is palazyed with ALS.

Watching someone slowly slip away from such a horrible disease really opens your eyes to a lot of things.

 

[CathrynRose]

I agree that it should be an advance directive issue that is organized by a lawyer. And the person should be required to have a full psych assessment when they write it up. I would even include in mine if I had dementia and no longer knew my children and my husband to take me off any and all meds that were extending my life. I don't want to be warehoused somewhere after I no longer remember who I am any longer than I have to be.

You know they kinda (sorta) have something like this, sorta.

When my mom was in ICU - they had to 'bring her back' 3 times. My mom had a DNR order, and I figured after 3 times (and having been without oxygen for up to 20 minutes) even if she did come back, would she be her?

So, the DNR wouldnt come into place though, unless *I* (next of kin) agreed to it. And I did... after they said they wouldnt be just doing the boomp boomp boomp on her chest to get her heart restarted, but those electric pad thingee's.

I think it's extremely unfair to not let someone choose their own destiny. When the whole Terri Schiavo thing was going on, my mom turned to me, looked me dead in the face and said "I swear to God, Cat - if I ever end up like that, you take me in a field and you shoot me"

She did not want to live as half the person she was. She didnt wanna be trapped. She didnt wanna be 'just alive' and not living.

It would have been selfish for me to continue to let them pound on her chest so *I* wouldnt have to go through grief. She was already gone. She was unconscious and she was trapped, unable to move, unable to speak, unable to -live-. I would talk to her, and she would cry, I mean tears running down her face. The nurse said it wasnt 'real' and just a reflex like reaction. It was real, I felt it. So, IMO - she was trapped, in this non-moving, non-communicating, non-working 'shell' of a body.

She was 55 - I could have kept her on life support for who knows how long - but that would have been for ME, not for HER.

And Lord knows, I couldnt take her out in a field and shoot her.

 

[Amy&Dan]

jacksonsmom and C.Ann, I read both your posts and cried. I am so sorry these things happen to good people and the people that love them. It never makes any sense whatsoever.

Both of your posts and my own experience with my mother remind me that until you walk in the shoes of this type of situation, you just can't know how you would feel.