Escape from Mayo Clinic

[NYCgrrl]

The article is too one-sided (Mayo Clinic responses seem like the kind given when they anticipate a lawsuit in the making) for me to formulate a dispassionate opinion.
The family also sounds a tad fanatical/nutty.

 

[tasha99]

The article is too one-sided (Mayo Clinic responses seem like the kind given when they anticipate a lawsuit in the making) for me to formulate a dispassionate opinion.
The family also sounds a tad fanatical/nutty.

I agree. And yet, no matter how rude or nutty they were, it's no excuse for what the Mayo Clinic tried to do. Patients and their families can be grumpy, nutty, rude, non-compliant--you name it (and grief can make people act that way). They still can choose to go to another hospital.

I read that article this morning and thought it was outrageous. I hope it brings some change.

 

[Shanti]

no matter how rude or nutty they were, it's no excuse for what the Mayo Clinic tried to do. Patients and their families can be grumpy, nutty, rude, non-compliant--you name it (and grief can make people act that way). They still can choose to go to another hospital.

Exactly. I'm a teacher, and can tell you that every teacher has to deal with difficult parents at some point. So I know what that's like. Not pleasant. But I'm a professional & just deal with it as part of the job.

A school would never in a million years try to take custody of a child away from attentive, caring parents because the parents disagreed with and/or were rude to a teacher, or because the parents were preparing to transfer the child from their school to another.

 

[Ben E N]

A school would never in a million years try to take custody of a child away from the parents because the parent disagreed with and/or was rude to a teacher, or because the parents were preparing to transfer the child from their school to another.

Haha no. We all secretly hope that they follow through with their threats while maintaining a stone face in their presence.

Oh boy, 6 days and counting until the next school year for me...

 

[Shanti]

Haha no. We all secretly hope that they follow through with their threats while maintaining a stone face in their presence.

"Whatever you do, don't throw me into that briar patch..."

 

[wenrob]

So essentially the Dr. and social worker got butt hurt when the patient wanted to transfer and fire them, which was the patient's right to do so

This was my take away. So many people think they must do what the doctors/hospital say when in fact these people work for you. It’s within your rights to fire their butts and it’s within your rights to leave when you damn well please.

I have been hospitalized three times and I have walked out twice when they would not let me go. No one could give me a reason for keeping me. I hadn’t seen a doctor in two/three days and was not being treated, just taking up a bed. I’ve also walked in on a doctor essentially proclaiming he was “god” to my stepmother when she dared question him. Man, that guy didn’t know what hit him when she responded. He was taken off my dad’s case. Medical professionals deserve respect but patients and their families should feel like they’re being heard. You need to be your own advocate and if you can’t be you need someone who will advocate for you.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

The article is too one-sided (Mayo Clinic responses seem like the kind given when they anticipate a lawsuit in the making) for me to formulate a dispassionate opinion.
The family also sounds a tad fanatical/nutty.

They did give their side. They claimed she was incompetent and abducted. The other hospital said that was rubbish. Their own admitted actions prove that statement was rubbish also. And that they couldn't get the order proves it was rubbish. The cops determined it was rubbish. Independent other doctors declared it was rubbish. What more other side do you need? And yeah if the statute of limitations hasn't run its course, they better be afraid of a lawsuit.

 

[Pink Partridge]

This article was so alarming. I agree, the family was probably very problematic. Perhaps they dared to question the doctor too much? That is what some people do and I am sure it is annoying. But to keep a mother from her daughter? This mother obviously loved her child very much. It makes me sick that she was not allowed to visit her child, no matter how outspoken she was.

There are some doctors that are very intelligent, but extremely narcissistic. Doctors are not gods, but some wish to be worshipped like one. I know two doctors personally that have such horrible private lives and abusive ways. If you knew how they acted in "real life", you wouldn't allow them within 10 feet of you in a hospital. And I can see both of these doctors acting like the one in the story. Puffing the chest and banning the mother for daring to question them.

I hope they sue and win big.

 

[sunshinehighway]

They did give their side. They claimed she was incompetent and abducted. The other hospital said that was rubbish. Their own admitted actions prove that statement was rubbish also. And that they couldn't get the order proves it was rubbish. The cops determined it was rubbish. Independent other doctors declared it was rubbish. What more other side do you need? And yeah if the statute of limitations hasn't run its course, they better be afraid of a lawsuit.

Yeah sometimes there is no other side, at least not a legitimate one. While it is good to get all the facts from both sides before forming an opinion, sometimes there's not anything on one side.
The basic story of the parents is backed up by the other things you mentioned. Why would the hospital telling their side, which will obviously be that the parents are lying, hold more weight that all that other stuff?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just to shed a little light on what might have happened.

I am guessing there was some level of threat, or concern of possible threat, against staff from the mother, from what I've read in the hospital statement and between the lines.

"A note from Mayo Clinic CEO Dr. John Noseworthy to employees alluded to staff concerns about their safety given the family’s reactions.

“The care team prioritized the needs and safety of the patient at all times. We also considered the safety and well-being of the team caring for the patient to ensure they could continue to provide her with the best care possible,” he wrote in the email sent Monday."

https://www.postbulletin.com/news/l...83412084-9f35-11e8-b52e-6b4d94eabb51.amp.html

“This was a very complex situation with very challenging dynamics. Following a thorough and careful review of the care in question, we have determined that the version of events provided by certain patient family members to CNN are not supported by the facts, nor do they track with the direct observations of numerous other providers on the patient’s care team,” according to Mayo Clinic’s statement. “Our internal review determined that the care team’s actions were true to Mayo Clinic’s primary value that the patient’s needs come first. This story lacks further clarification and context that CNN knew, but chose not to use.”

That means concerns are well documented and an event or events likely triggered an internal response at the time, which involves numerous members of the hospital and care team, including not only direct care staff, but psychiatrists, security, legal, administration, social work, etc.

"Conflicts between the family and Mayo Clinic staff started soon after the surgery as Gilderhus spent two months in rehabilitation in Saint Marys Hospital.

The family, led by Gilderhus’ mother, Amber Engebretson, started questioning aspects of her care and asking to have some staff members taken off her case.

After a doctor accused Amber Engebretson of barging into a meeting about her daughter’s care on Feb. 22, Mayo Clinic had security remove the mother and ban her from the hospital."

What we don't know is how these interactions occurred. (Anger, threatening words, acting out?)

Aggression against health care workers is on the rise. It is taken seriously by hospitals.

https://www.jointcommission.org/assets/1/18/SEA_59_Workplace_violence_4_13_18_FINAL.pdf

(Just last month a doctor was murdered in cold blood while riding a bicycle after being stalked by someone who held a grudge against him for 20 years. https://abcnews.go.com/US/houston-cardiologist-time-doctor-george-hw-bush-killed/story?id=56969861 )

Complexities

At the same time, the patient likely had issues with her mental status not being 100% given the nature of her surgery and the "complexities" that Mayo referred to afterward (possibly not completely oriented or issues with delirium post-operatively, which could be why they did not want to continue giving her opioids for pain management, or found to not have insight or judgement into her own condition and needs, etc.) clouding the issue of her making her own legal decisions, despite her age.

"A social worker from Mayo reportedly told local police that Alyssa was unable to make decisions for herself and that her mother couldn't care for her "because Amber (mother) has mental health issues." Amber Engebretson refutes claims about her mental state."

https://www.medcitybeat.com/news-blog/2018/mayo-clinic-cnn-report

A patient unable to make decisions for herself and threatening family member(s) combine to prove for a difficult management situation.

Feel free to comment on my post, but I'm not getting involved in any arguments about it. These are just my thoughts. Given that this story is so one sided and people are rightfully questioning if there could be more, I thought I'd share my perceptions of what I've read. Not saying either party was completely right or wrong, just saying that things can sometimes get very complex, as alluded to. I don't know if we'll ever learn more from the hospital unless there is a lawsuit, because the hospital seems to be taking the high road here, but not sharing their side is like trying to defend yourself blindfolded with your hands and feet bound. I think the reason for this is because they feel their patients need to be assured that they will protect their information and privacy no matter what, even in the face of something as dire a this.

 

[Imzadi]

Yeah sometimes there is no other side, at least not a legitimate one. While it is good to get all the facts from both sides before forming an opinion, sometimes there's not anything on one side.
The basic story of the parents is backed up by the other things you mentioned. Why would the hospital telling their side, which will obviously be that the parents are lying, hold more weight that all that other stuff?

Yes, the Police also have on record what the Mayo staff and the social worker told them at the time of the incident. They were concerned about the mother's mental health. But they had no official written psychiatric/psychological evaluation or report done. There wasn't even any previous police report filed about her claiming she is a danger to the staff. So it was just their OPINION she's mentally unstable. Same for Amber, as she didn't have any psychiatric/psychological tests that were done and on file to rule her incompetent before she left the hospital.

It's probably also why 2 judges in 2 counties didn't even hear the case. Without any proper no official written psychiatric/psychological evaluations, it's just a he said/she said.

"At 4:28 p.m., a Rochester Police dispatcher received a call from Mayo Clinic security.

"We have a patient abduction," the caller said.

An officer arrived on the scene 20 minutes later.
A Mayo social worker told him that Alyssa "cannot make decisions for herself" and that her mother couldn't care for her "because Amber has mental health issues."
The social worker also told police she "understood there was no formal diagnosis" for Amber.

Amber told CNN she has no history of mental illness and took offense to the social worker making such an unqualified pronouncement.
"It's absolutely absurd," Amber said. "She said it to the police department. She has no reasoning. She has no justification."

The social worker told the police she'd been working with adult protection services in two Minnesota counties "trying to get emergency guardianship" but had been unable to get court orders to do so.

An Olmsted County Adult Protective Services official told police that "Mayo was requesting [assistance] in gaining guardianship of Alyssa because they were concerned for the mother's mental health and the medical decisions that were being made for Alyssa."

But something didn't quite make sense to John Sherwin, captain of investigations for the Rochester Police Department.

If Alyssa couldn't make decisions for herself, as the social worker had said, and if she needed a legal guardian appointed for her, then who had been making decisions for her while she was in the hospital?

When police asked that question of Mayo staffers, Sherwin said, they replied that Alyssa had been making her own medical decisions.
"When doctors were consulting with her in regards to her medical care, they weren't doing so through a guardian or someone that had been appointed by the courts. It was in direct contact with the patient," Sherwin said.
He said it became clear to investigators that Alyssa "in fact could make decisions on her own" -- including the decision to leave the hospital against medical advice.

"There was no abduction. This was done under her own will," he said. "You had a patient that left the hospital under their own planning."​

What is scary is that one doctor and one social worker can have that much power at a hospital to make such decisions, without some oversight committee reviewing decisions about taking over guardianship.

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

There is no way that the ethics department should have been involved at that point. That right there tells me someone in th hospital did not do their job.

 

[mnrose]

I think this story highlights why it is important for our teens (once they reach adulthood) to have the proper legal documents in place naming a parent (or other trusted adult) to act as their decision maker for medical decisions if, for any reason, the teen is deemed unable to make their own decisions. I know I am insisting that my children name me as their medical power of attorney when they leave for college. Without it, you may not even get notice that your child has been take to the hospital and is unconscious. It's a very scary thing for me as a parent. Yes, my children are "legal" adults, but they have no clue about how to navigate complex medical decisions.

I am on the side of thinking there has to be more to this story than just "big bad hospital." Also, I am familiar with Sanford Medical (the hospital in South Dakota). Denny Sanford is a very wealthy man who shopped around trying to find a hospital on which to place his name in exchange for an extremely large donation. Mayo declined. One of the major hospitals in Sioux Falls accepted, and they now have the stated goal of becoming the "new" Mayo clinic...they want to be thought of as the "leading" hospital. You would not believe the medical compound they have built in a state that has fewer people than the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. It's crazy. My father stayed there several times at the end of his life, and I was absolutely blown away at what they have built there in a town as small as Sioux Falls. I have no doubt that there are people at Sanford who relished the chance to disagree publicly with Mayo.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Yes, the Police also have on record what the Mayo staff and the social worker told them at the time of the incident. They were concerned about the mother's mental health. But they had no official written psychiatric/psychological evaluation or report done. There wasn't even any previous police report filed about her claiming she is a danger to the staff. So it was just their OPINION she's mentally unstable. Same for Amber, as she didn't have any psychiatric/psychological tests that were done and on file to rule her incompetent before she left the hospital.

It's probably also why 2 judges in 2 counties didn't even hear the case. Without any proper no official written psychiatric/psychological evaluations, it's just a he said/she said.

"At 4:28 p.m., a Rochester Police dispatcher received a call from Mayo Clinic security.

"We have a patient abduction," the caller said.

An officer arrived on the scene 20 minutes later.
A Mayo social worker told him that Alyssa "cannot make decisions for herself" and that her mother couldn't care for her "because Amber has mental health issues."
The social worker also told police she "understood there was no formal diagnosis" for Amber.

Amber told CNN she has no history of mental illness and took offense to the social worker making such an unqualified pronouncement.
"It's absolutely absurd," Amber said. "She said it to the police department. She has no reasoning. She has no justification."

The social worker told the police she'd been working with adult protection services in two Minnesota counties "trying to get emergency guardianship" but had been unable to get court orders to do so.

An Olmsted County Adult Protective Services official told police that "Mayo was requesting [assistance] in gaining guardianship of Alyssa because they were concerned for the mother's mental health and the medical decisions that were being made for Alyssa."

But something didn't quite make sense to John Sherwin, captain of investigations for the Rochester Police Department.

If Alyssa couldn't make decisions for herself, as the social worker had said, and if she needed a legal guardian appointed for her, then who had been making decisions for her while she was in the hospital?

When police asked that question of Mayo staffers, Sherwin said, they replied that Alyssa had been making her own medical decisions.
"When doctors were consulting with her in regards to her medical care, they weren't doing so through a guardian or someone that had been appointed by the courts. It was in direct contact with the patient," Sherwin said.
He said it became clear to investigators that Alyssa "in fact could make decisions on her own" -- including the decision to leave the hospital against medical advice.

"There was no abduction. This was done under her own will," he said. "You had a patient that left the hospital under their own planning."​

What is scary is that one doctor and one social worker can have that much power at a hospital to make such decisions, without some oversight committee reviewing decisions about taking over guardianship.

It's disconcerting. Luckily the police investigator asked questions and dug deeper. Same with the courts, there's a reason emergency guardianship wasn't granted.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Yes, the Police also have on record what the Mayo staff and the social worker told them at the time of the incident. They were concerned about the mother's mental health. But they had no official written psychiatric/psychological evaluation or report done. There wasn't even any previous police report filed about her claiming she is a danger to the staff. So it was just their OPINION she's mentally unstable. Same for Amber, as she didn't have any psychiatric/psychological tests that were done and on file to rule her incompetent before she left the hospital.

It's probably also why 2 judges in 2 counties didn't even hear the case. Without any proper no official written psychiatric/psychological evaluations, it's just a he said/she said.

"At 4:28 p.m., a Rochester Police dispatcher received a call from Mayo Clinic security.

"We have a patient abduction," the caller said.

An officer arrived on the scene 20 minutes later.
A Mayo social worker told him that Alyssa "cannot make decisions for herself" and that her mother couldn't care for her "because Amber has mental health issues."
The social worker also told police she "understood there was no formal diagnosis" for Amber.

Amber told CNN she has no history of mental illness and took offense to the social worker making such an unqualified pronouncement.
"It's absolutely absurd," Amber said. "She said it to the police department. She has no reasoning. She has no justification."

The social worker told the police she'd been working with adult protection services in two Minnesota counties "trying to get emergency guardianship" but had been unable to get court orders to do so.

An Olmsted County Adult Protective Services official told police that "Mayo was requesting [assistance] in gaining guardianship of Alyssa because they were concerned for the mother's mental health and the medical decisions that were being made for Alyssa."

But something didn't quite make sense to John Sherwin, captain of investigations for the Rochester Police Department.

If Alyssa couldn't make decisions for herself, as the social worker had said, and if she needed a legal guardian appointed for her, then who had been making decisions for her while she was in the hospital?

When police asked that question of Mayo staffers, Sherwin said, they replied that Alyssa had been making her own medical decisions.
"When doctors were consulting with her in regards to her medical care, they weren't doing so through a guardian or someone that had been appointed by the courts. It was in direct contact with the patient," Sherwin said.
He said it became clear to investigators that Alyssa "in fact could make decisions on her own" -- including the decision to leave the hospital against medical advice.

"There was no abduction. This was done under her own will," he said. "You had a patient that left the hospital under their own planning."​

What is scary is that one doctor and one social worker can have that much power at a hospital to make such decisions, without some oversight committee reviewing decisions about taking over guardianship.

I agree! And for the social worker to speak about a persons mental health (when she doesn't know the person and is not a doctor) is a huge problem.

The hospital should have let them go to a different hospital.

 

[cruiser21]

I think there's a lot more to this story. I couldn't even begin to form an opinion when the article is so one sided.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I would guess that the very first step necessary in this type of situation must be for the hospital to request a qualified and acceptable mental health evaluation.
I believe that this can be done if it can be shown that the person could be a threat to their own well being, or the well being of those around them.
A court ordered and mandatory evaluation. Mayo should have the staff, right there, on site, to handle this.

Some doctor or hospital staff can't just say, this person is unfit, and we are taking custody.
That is ludicrous.
Which is probably why all legal and medical persons who have weighed in have backed up this young adult and their family.

The necessary process was not observed, and it was simply not legal for the hospital to hold this person against their will. This young adult has the right to refuse care and walk out.
And, that seems to be exactly what happened in the end.

Yes, a person can walk, or even drag, themselves right out of a hospital.
The only catch is that once this happens, the hospital can establish that this person has refused care, and therefore the hospital has absolutely no obligation to provide care, if the person were to fall over and die right there outside of the facility.

WOW....

 

[DawnAurora]

Mayo's response. https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/...tient-story-published-by-cnn/?linkId=55599957

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

I don't see how the article is one sided. It seems CNN reached out to Mayo Clinic. It seems like they spoke to the authorities.

 

[wenrob]

Mayo's response. https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/...tient-story-published-by-cnn/?linkId=55599957

They repeat that the story lacks clarification but refuse to provide it. I won’t dispute that the story is very lopsided but as has been pointed out multiple times they attempted to gain guardianship and were denied TWICE. The whole family could be batcrap crazy but they had no evidence of that. The girl wanted to leave and they would not let her. It doesn’t matter if their intentions were good, they still kept her against her will.