England is Vanishing...

[DawnCt1]

Ah okay, I see now, they included all the spellings. That's fair enough, then.

My question: Why do you [plural] care what people name their children in the UK? Why do you [plural] care what religion people are? Why is the fact that more people in the UK are naming their child after their prophet a bad thing?

Other than the fact that it's going to be great fun for teachers in a few years time when they have 2 Mohammed's in every class.

I don't care. What the article is addressing is the vanishing UK. That is an example, through demographics, how the UK can vanish.

 

[DawnCt1]

I think a lot of people are in denial.

We should revisit this thread 10 years down the road. Only then we'll be able to see how true the predictions are.

My thoughts exactly. The writing is on the wall. Approximately 21% of the world's population is Muslim and it is the fasting growing religion in the world.

 

[DawnCt1]

I apologize and retract my skepticism regarding your figures, Dawn. You are correct. However, the mitigating circumstances below should also be taken into account when looking at the big picture.


Overall, Muslims account for 3 per cent of the British population, about 1.5 million people. However, the Muslim birthrate is roughly three times higher than the nonMuslim one.

Statistics from the ONS show that Muslim households are larger than those headed by someone of another religion. In 2001, the average size of a Muslim household was 3.8 people while a third contained more than five people.

The different spellings of Muhammad in 2006 and the number of occurrences

No need for an apology. The point is, all of Europe, particularly Italy and Spain are reproducing well below the "replacement figure", (1.4%) while as you noted, the Muslim population far exceeds that. It isn't hard to see where those demographics will be 25 years from now. You have made the point that I was also making.

 

[dcentity2000]

Absolutely not. I think that everyone should be free to practice their religion or not practice any religion if that is there choice.

Excellent - had to be asked.

If you look at the countries that are theocracies, practicing is not a choice, it is a requirement. The Koran requires prayers 5 times a day. Would it be required if that is what the majority population demanded and voted for?

Two points;

1. Followers of religions rarely adhere letter to letter to what their religion practices. I know a fair few Muslims and they're usually quite relaxed about the whole thing. In the same way, not all Jews adhere to every Jewish law. Instead, people tend to follow the general teachings of the religion.
2. If you're worried about a state being influenced by a religion, you shouldn't be. The state should stay separate from religion on principle - it's OUR choice to practice religion x, y or z - not the state's. In other words, 1984 was not an instruction manual.

Rich::

 

[Kath2003]

Absolutely not. I think that everyone should be free to practice their religion or not practice any religion if that is there choice. If you look at the countries that are theocracies, practicing is not a choice, it is a requirement. The Koran requires prayers 5 times a day. Would it be required if that is what the majority population demanded and voted for?

Firstly, not all Muslims actually pray 5 times a day. It's the same as not all Christians are against working on Sundays, not all Christians are against sex before marriage etc.

The government in the UK has virtually nothing to do with religion. It is a democracy, written into EU and UK law. Even things like euthanasia being illegal are soon to be written out of UK law.

I fail to see how, legally, laws could be passed which required people to conform to a religion when there are about a gazillion human rights, EU and UK laws stating exactly the opposite.

Why exactly do you think mutiny and a revolution of the entire EU and UK political system is imminent?

 

[DawnCt1]

]Firstly, that's quite a turnaround to go from "everyone has the right to follow whichever religion they choose" to "you must follow Islam". This is a democracy. They'd have to have a huge proportion of the population that not only follow Islam but believe this is the right thing for everyone else to believe also (most Muslims don't: they, like Christians, believe that their faith is correct, that's all). You'd have to have a huge proportion of people who don't believe in freedom of religion, leave the EU etc. It is VERY, VERY unlikely to happen and certainly won't happen in the next 100-200 years.
[/B]
Again, I'm really not seeing how a change in the proportion of the population following a certain religion leads to this. You're talking about a minority of a minority religion (globally). Religion doesn't tend to come into UK politics -certainly not to the extent that it comes into US politics - anyway, so that would have to change also. Besides, the Koran preaches peace and tolerance, and that above all is what people of all faiths and none want.

An ageing population is likely to mean that everyone pays slightly higher taxes, rather than a change of religion?

What's FAR more likely is for the UK to be declared a secular state, like the Netherlands, since the number of people of all religions in the UK, particularly Christianity but also the many, many other faiths practised by people in the UK, are declining.

I think that you made several points that actually fit into the scenario that the original post put forth. First of all, the UK is a democracy. With the birth rate of Brits in significant decline and that of the Muslim population rising, who tend to be adherant and consistant in their religious beliefs, do you think that they will not support a more theocratic/Islamic government if given the opportunity. With an aging population in need of greater tax revenue, do you think that the younger population will be willing to pay even higher confiscatory taxes without balking? And lastly, with the decline of religion, particularly Christianity, do you think that anyone will initially care, that the fastest growing religion, that is not declining in the UK or anywhere else in the world will gain a foothold with demands that will easily be given in to, in the name of "diversity and multiculturalism". Already there have been European Catholic Church leaders who feel that GOD should be called Allah in the interest of appeasement. How far will appeasement go? Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete way of life. Islam guides Muslims from birth to grave. Islam is a guide for humanity. It is forbidden in Islam to convert to any other religion. The punishment is death. There is no disagreement about it. Muslims cannot pick some rules and disregard others. Muslims must embrace Islam in its totality. I think that if you really read the Koran, you would see that it isn't the religion of peace and love. The early suras are abrogated by the later ones, which are more strict and more violent.

 

[DawnCt1]

Why exactly do you think mutiny and a revolution of the entire EU and UK political system is imminent?

I don't think it is imminent. I think it will be insiduous.

 

[eclectics]

No need for an apology. The point is, all of Europe, particularly Italy and Spain are reproducing well below the "replacement figure", (1.4%) while as you noted, the Muslim population far exceeds that. It isn't hard to see where those demographics will be 25 years from now. You have made the point that I was also making.

Only in birth rates. It doesn't change the fact that, in total, they are only 3% of the population. That percentage is, of course, likely to increase, but it's unlikely that it will dramatically increase in 25 years.

 

[Kath2003]

I think that you made several points that actually fit into the scenario that the original post put forth. First of all, the UK is a democracy. With the birth rate of Brits in significant decline and that of the Muslim population rising, who tend to be adherant and consistant in their religious beliefs, do you think that they will not support a more theocratic/Islamic government if given the opportunity.

Within both the EU and UK law, it's impossible to do so.

With an aging population in need of greater tax revenue, do you think that the younger population will be willing to pay even higher confiscatory taxes without balking?

Um, yes, given that most other countries pay far higher taxes than us (America, for example).

And lastly, with the decline of religion, particularly Christianity, do you think that anyone will initially care, that the fastest growing religion, that is not declining in the UK or anywhere else in the world will gain a foothold with demands that will easily be given in to, in the name of "diversity and multiculturalism". Already there have been European Catholic Church leaders who feel that GOD should be called Allah in the interest of appeasement.

Allah means GOD. I don't see why that's a big deal, you don't call him Yahweh which is what he's originally called in the Bible so you're already translating his name once, why not again?

Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete way of life. Islam guides Muslims from birth to grave. Islam is a guide for humanity. It is forbidden in Islam to convert to any other religion. The punishment is death. There is no disagreement about it. Muslims cannot pick some rules and disregard others. Muslims must embrace Islam in its totality. I think that if you really read the Koran, you would see that it isn't the religion of peace and love. The early suras are abrogated by the later ones, which are more strict and more violent.

Wow, do you want to stereotype any more? Yes, there are Muslims that take their religion VERY seriously, as a way of life. There are Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs etc. which do the same. There are also Muslims who take their religion as an ASPECT of their life. You CAN leave Islam, the same as you can leave any other religion. The beauty of the EU is that you can do so without fear of persecution.

I assure you that Muslims can and do pick their rules the same way that Christians do. Why do you think there are different Islamic denominations? Same way that there are many, many different Christian denominations who pick and choose which rules are right for them (e.g. Catholics say no contraception, others disregard this).

I have read the Koran. There are aspects I disagree with, but the translation I read strongly promoted peacefulness and tolerance - and the vast majority of Muslims agree.

 

[dcentity2000]

I think that you made several points that actually fit into the scenario that the original post put forth. First of all, the UK is a democracy. With the birth rate of Brits in significant decline and that of the Muslim population rising, who tend to be adherant and consistant in their religious beliefs, do you think that they will not support a more theocratic/Islamic government if given the opportunity. With an aging population in need of greater tax revenue, do you think that the younger population will be willing to pay even higher confiscatory taxes without balking? And lastly, with the decline of religion, particularly Christianity, do you think that anyone will initially care, that the fastest growing religion, that is not declining in the UK or anywhere else in the world will gain a foothold with demands that will easily be given in to, in the name of "diversity and multiculturalism". Already there have been European Catholic Church leaders who feel that GOD should be called Allah in the interest of appeasement. How far will appeasement go? Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete way of life. Islam guides Muslims from birth to grave. Islam is a guide for humanity. It is forbidden in Islam to convert to any other religion. The punishment is death. There is no disagreement about it. Muslims cannot pick some rules and disregard others. Muslims must embrace Islam in its totality. I think that if you really read the Koran, you would see that it isn't the religion of peace and love. The early suras are abrogated by the later ones, which are more strict and more violent.

There's the rub. Unlike you, I don't define people by where they're from or what religion they follow.

Islam is not some evil encroaching monster of doom - it's just a religion. Like Judaism and Christianity, it exists at least in part as a guide to life. Followers choose the degree to which they adhere to these teachings.



Rich::

 

[dcentity2000]

OMG! Immigrating aliens are taking over!





Rich::

 

[DawnCt1]

Only in birth rates. It doesn't change the fact that, in total, they are only 3% of the population. That percentage is, of course, likely to increase, but it's unlikely that it will dramatically increase in 25 years.

I think if you look at Europe as a whole, that population varies from 5 to 10%. It is also estimated to be increasing by 10% a year while the birthrate of most European countries is decreasing below "replacement levels". Do the math.

 

[DawnCt1]

There's the rub. Unlike you, I don't define people by where they're from or what religion they follow.

Islam is not some evil encroaching monster of doom - it's just a religion. Like Judaism and Christianity, it exists at least in part as a guide to life. Followers choose the degree to which they adhere to these teachings.



Rich::

There are "Muslims in Europe" and there are European Muslims. If the more forceful, radicalized group is capable of intimidating the more moderate majority, as we have actually seen world wide, it may end up existing as more than a guide to life. How do you explain the violent riots in Paris and then through out France two years ago? It was waged by a large group of disenfranchised young Muslims who are Muslims in Europe, not European Muslims.

 

[Kath2003]

I think if you look at Europe as a whole, that population varies from 5 to 10%. It is also estimated to be increasing by 10% a year while the birthrate of most European countries is decreasing below "replacement levels". Do the math.

Why do we care how many Muslims live in Europe?

 

[dcentity2000]

There are "Muslims in Europe" and there are European Muslims. If the more forceful, radicalized group is capable of intimidating the more moderate majority, as we have actually seen world wide, it may end up existing as more than a guide to life. How do you explain the violent riots in Paris and then through out France two years ago? It was waged by a large group of disenfranchised young Muslims who are Muslims in Europe, not European Muslims.

Same applies to Christianity. Ireland, anyone?

Why are you terrified of Muslims? The ones I've met are all very pleasant, hardworking people



Rich::

 

[Kath2003]

There are "Muslims in Europe" and there are European Muslims. If the more forceful, radicalized group is capable of intimidating the more moderate majority, as we have actually seen world wide, it may end up existing as more than a guide to life. How do you explain the violent riots in Paris and then through out France two years ago? It was waged by a large group of disenfranchised young Muslims who are Muslims in Europe, not European Muslims.

There was no Islamic factor found to be part of the initiation of the riots in Paris, according to their official report by the French intelligence service. There were newspaper speculation as to whether the social discrimination against Muslims - much like the unfounded allegations, comparing a tiny minority to the vast majority, you are repeating here - may have sparked the event.

 

[DawnCt1]

There's the rub. Unlike you, I don't define people by where they're from or what religion they follow.

Islam is not some evil encroaching monster of doom - it's just a religion. Like Judaism and Christianity, it exists at least in part as a guide to life. Followers choose the degree to which they adhere to these teachings.



Rich::

It isn't for you or I to define. That is how they define themselves. Mark Styne is now an American citizen but he is from the UK. Why don't you read his book? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cu...ref=cm_cr_dp_all_top/102-9640028-7085712?ie=U

At least click on the link and read some of the reviews. BTW. I didn't post the original post, I am merely elaborating on it. Real Clear Politics is often seen on this board as unbiased. Maybe the article has a point to make that you should consider.

 

[Kath2003]

I've read his book. If it helps, he's a mockery within the academic community.

The guy refuses to admit when he's wrong - and has been on numerous occasions. He is internationally renowned as a "hidden racist".

 

[dcentity2000]

I'll take a look at it.

Could you summarise why you are so worried about the propagation of Islam?



Rich::

 

[DawnCt1]

There was no Islamic factor found to be part of the initiation of the riots in Paris, according to their official report by the French intelligence service. There were newspaper speculation as to whether the social discrimination against Muslims - much like the unfounded allegations, comparing a tiny minority to the vast majority, you are repeating here - may have sparked the event.

Then perhaps you can explain why only Muslims were rioting. It sounds like Chirac's last attempt to appease the politically correct. Europe has not done a good job of integrating immigrants into their countries and that has resulted in social discrimination. It wasn't the initial immigrants however that were the rioters. Many of those came in search of a better economic and social life. It was their offspring, who were born and raised in France who felt, after a life time they didn't belong. Again, Muslims in Europe rather than European Muslims. It will be interesting to see what impact Sarkozy's new policies will have. It is my understanding that he has a deportation quota to meet.