Endangered turtles further endangered by excursion co?

[lorenni]

Just doing some due diligence on possible excursions and came across the following regarding Abi Beach Club on St Thomas:

http://stthomassource.com/content/2015/08/04/dpnr-investigating-abi-beach-bar-development/

I don't care how nice it is - we won't support a company that is allowing guests to put endangered hatchlings in beach pails at the bar.

Has anyone actually done one of the two excursions offered to this beach? Or seen anything more recent in terms of news? I am also planning to email Disney as I have to assume their own legal team is capable of at least as much due diligence as me and would have wanted to avoid an association with with a "bad actor". Maybe they know more?

Finally - would others strongly recommend another beach for this port? Looking for absolute minimum car time.

 

[mevelandry]

Just doing some due diligence on possible excursions and came across the following regarding Abi Beach Club on St Thomas:

http://stthomassource.com/content/2015/08/04/dpnr-investigating-abi-beach-bar-development/

I don't care how nice it is - we won't support a company that is allowing guests to put endangered hatchlings in beach pails at the bar.

Has anyone actually done one of the two excursions offered to this beach? Or seen anything more recent in terms of news? I am also planning to email Disney as I have to assume their own legal team is capable of at least as much due diligence as me and would have wanted to avoid an association with with a "bad actor". Maybe they know more?

Finally - would others strongly recommend another beach for this port? Looking for absolute minimum car time.

FYI, DCL sells excursions to go swim with the dolphins... God knows dolphins swims are not ethical either.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Just doing some due diligence on possible excursions and came across the following regarding Abi Beach Club on St Thomas:

http://stthomassource.com/content/2015/08/04/dpnr-investigating-abi-beach-bar-development/

I don't care how nice it is - we won't support a company that is allowing guests to put endangered hatchlings in beach pails at the bar.

Has anyone actually done one of the two excursions offered to this beach? Or seen anything more recent in terms of news? I am also planning to email Disney as I have to assume their own legal team is capable of at least as much due diligence as me and would have wanted to avoid an association with with a "bad actor". Maybe they know more?

Finally - would others strongly recommend another beach for this port? Looking for absolute minimum car time.

I can tell that there were no updates on the news sources- I did a search. So, no fire found. You could go on TripAdvisor forum and ask the locals- they'd know. I found a thread from about that time. No more information than what you found though.

My guess is the bar isn't the one encouraging people to put the turtles in buckets. They may not be monitoring it as well has they should but, then again, monitoring it that closely involves practically stalking everyone on the beach. People ignore wildlife signs on beaches all the time. Think of the alligator signs at WDW!

 

[FigmentSpark]

We did the catamaran snorkelling in St. Thomas and the beach they took us to was the Abi Beach. The ad on the excursion says you can only get there by boat, but by the time we were leaving, we did notice a lot of people showed up that were not with us and no other boat had brought them in. We wondered about that. It did look like a 'construction' area on land, but the beach seemed natural. There were rocks which apparently held sea urchins? and were told to stay away from them. There were rocks in the swimming area, too, so no one had cultivated it or dredged it. We did a little snorkeling and sat on the beach for a little while, then got back on the boat and left. I didn't see any turtles or turtle sanctuary, but I wasn't looking for it and I only went through the bar area to get to the bathroom.

 

[cruiser21]

I would never pay to swim with Dolphins. I just think it's wrong to put them in captivity for a someone to profit off photos. Obviously a lot of people feel differently then I do because the swim with Dolphins tanks seem to be everywhere.

 

[lorenni]

UPDATE: I just a phone call from shoreside services. Unfortunately I was on a conference call so could not pick up, but she left a message saying that they had received my email, and they are researching the business and allegations. She said that someone will call me again when they have finished looking into it.

 

[lunaland]

Something to consider. I live in Washington state where our Southern Resident Orcas are endangered. There are many reasons for this, but one issue is lack of food and disruption to the whales as they forage for food. In fact just this last year a mother whale and her calf starved to death. When you see hundreds of whale watching boats surrounding a pod of a few dozen animals its easy to see how that might be disruptive. I find viewing animals in a captive setting to be a much more humane option. Just an alternate viewpoint to the negatively that often surrounds the 'swim with' programs!

 

[Westcoastwild]

Something to consider. I live in Washington state where our Southern Resident Orcas are endangered. There are many reasons for this, but one issue is lack of food and disruption to the whales as they forage for food. In fact just this last year a mother whale and her calf starved to death. When you see hundreds of whale watching boats surrounding a pod of a few dozen animals its easy to see how that might be disruptive. I find viewing animals in a captive setting to be a much more humane option. Just an alternate viewpoint to the negatively that often surrounds the 'swim with' programs!

Yeah, I live in the same area, and kind of agree with this. Often the animals in captivity used to humans and they are also often unable to be released in the wild, usually due to injury. I don't agree with what seaworld did, but the aquariums often have rescued animals that they are studying, which is a different thing entirely.

 

[lorenni]

Right, but these are not turtles in captivity. This is a company that allegedly built far beyond the limits of its permits, intruding on nesting areas, and then allowed bar patrons to disturb nests and put hatchlings in buckets. I think this falls squarely in the "infringing on natural habitat" side of the argument.

And given Disney's stand on nesting at Vero Beach - this should be a big deal to them.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Right, but these are not turtles in captivity. This is a company that allegedly built far beyond the limits of its permits, intruding on nesting areas, and then allowed bar patrons to disturb nests and put hatchlings in buckets. I think this falls squarely in the "infringing on natural habitat" side of the argument.

And given Disney's stand on nesting at Vero Beach - this should be a big deal to them.

Yeah, but "alleged" is the key word here. Simple development isn't enough to base a policy off of. I will say that I wouldn't necessarily base my beliefs off Disney's stance. Disney is PRO development. WDW is built on a big ol' swamp that wasn't exactly empty. If Disney is basing their stance on anything, it's PR. I.e. Will it make them look bad if they associate themselves with excursions to that beach. I've got zilch faith in them doing it based on purely ecological reasons.

Essentially, if you are anti development, this is a no brainer. Even if they aren't allowing the bucket thing, they've developed an area and that development has impacted the turtles. If you sometimes value people and their needs/wants over animals, well, then the argument is a little tricky. You've got to prove that the development has the least amount impact on the population. They do limit how close ships can get to orcas, I believe. My point is that there is impact. If the thought of impact bothers you, don't do it. But impact does not bother Disney. Bad PR bothers Disney.

 

[lorenni]

Yeah, but "alleged" is the key word here. Simple development isn't enough to base a policy off of. I will say that I wouldn't necessarily base my beliefs off Disney's stance. Disney is PRO development. WDW is built on a big ol' swamp that wasn't exactly empty. If Disney is basing their stance on anything, it's PR. I.e. Will it make them look bad if they associate themselves with excursions to that beach. I've got zilch faith in them doing it based on purely ecological reasons.

Essentially, if you are anti development, this is a no brainer. Even if they aren't allowing the bucket thing, they've developed an area and that development has impacted the turtles. If you sometimes value people and their needs/wants over animals, well, then the argument is a little tricky. You've got to prove that the development has the least amount impact on the population. They do limit how close ships can get to orcas, I believe. My point is that there is impact. If the thought of impact bothers you, don't do it. But impact does not bother Disney. Bad PR bothers Disney.

I am with you 100%.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I am with you 100%.

Aw. I was gearing up for an epic squabble over whether or not Disney is an ecologically sound pillar of strength. Your agreement has deeply disappointed me and I'll be over on the otherside of the playground kicking rocks.

Just kidding. I think it's awesome that you're doing your research on this! So may people don't! Please post back if you hear more.

 

[MUN]

Just doing some due diligence on possible excursions and came across the following regarding Abi Beach Club on St Thomas:

http://stthomassource.com/content/2015/08/04/dpnr-investigating-abi-beach-bar-development/

I don't care how nice it is - we won't support a company that is allowing guests to put endangered hatchlings in beach pails at the bar.

Has anyone actually done one of the two excursions offered to this beach? Or seen anything more recent in terms of news? I am also planning to email Disney as I have to assume their own legal team is capable of at least as much due diligence as me and would have wanted to avoid an association with with a "bad actor". Maybe they know more?

Finally - would others strongly recommend another beach for this port? Looking for absolute minimum car time.

I'm not familiar with this excursion and the difference between these turtles and the turtles at the Grand Cayman turtle farm, but do you know if this place has a restaurant that serves turtle soup and turtle meat like the one in Grand Cayman does?

MUN

 

[Westcoastwild]

I'm not familiar with this excursion and the difference between these turtles and the turtles at the Grand Cayman turtle farm, but do you know if this place has a restaurant that serves turtle soup and turtle meat like the one in Grand Cayman does?

MUN

Is it that you really like turtle meat? Or that you suspect this is some kind of "pick your own turtle" restaurant and that's where the pails come in? (Does the grand caymans farm do that, because yuck.)

Green seas (gc farms) are herbivores, at least as adults, which explains both why they are endangered and why they can be cheaply farmed. Leatherbacks (these ones) don't have a hard shell, dive deeper, swim farther and love jellyfish (not herbivores). A bunch of interesting adaptations. Green seas are the poster child of turtles- very pretty, What Crush in Nemo was, I believe.

They face different risk factors when it comes to parasites and diseases but by and large the biggest threat is human behavior. Pollution, habitat destruction, etc.

I was kind of obsessed with sea turtles as a kid...

 

[hanscarlet]

LOL @ MUN, inserts a question about turtle soup during a wildlife protection thread

The turtles at GC Farm are protected right? Like the farm there has a mission to save and reintroduce the turtles right? Just curious because I've never been there

We're horse fans here and on our way to a private excursion in St.Thomas we saw a horse track and ugh, the conditions were so gross it made my stomach turn.... that's one bad thing about travel, some other countries just don't have the same standards and beliefs about animals the way the US does ( I think they are mostly equal, at least should be afforded an equal right to life whenever possible)

I <3 Sea Turtles... on this excursion we got to swim with them and it was such a memorable fantastic experience... our guide was very eco conscious and protective of the sea turtles, he said he has seen idiots grab them when trying to swim them to try and "ride the turtle" and the turtle gets nervous and starts to dart deep down in the ocean to escape and often drowns itself in the process.... ignorant humans re: wildlife drive me bonkers sometimes

 

[Mr. Drauer]

LOL @ MUN, inserts a question about turtle soup during a wildlife protection thread

The turtles at GC Farm are protected right? Like the farm there has a mission to save and reintroduce the turtles right? Just curious because I've never been there

We're horse fans here and on our way to a private excursion in St.Thomas we saw a horse track and ugh, the conditions were so gross it made my stomach turn.... that's one bad thing about travel, some other countries just don't have the same standards and beliefs about animals the way the US does ( I think they are mostly equal, at least should be afforded an equal right to life whenever possible)

I <3 Sea Turtles... on this excursion we got to swim with them and it was such a memorable fantastic experience... our guide was very eco conscious and protective of the sea turtles, he said he has seen idiots grab them when trying to swim them to try and "ride the turtle" and the turtle gets nervous and starts to dart deep down in the ocean to escape and often drowns itself in the process.... ignorant humans re: wildlife drive me bonkers sometimes

Actually - the GC turtle center is both a turtle hatchery and farm, though recently removed the name farm. They harvest approximately 40% of the turtles for meat and shells accoridng to the most recent corporate report. They also reintroduce turtles to the wild, and depending on who you believe, have released over 31,000 greens since 1968 but have released an average of 28 per year since 2007 showing a massive decline in the last decade. There are a lot of reports about poor conditions for the turtles in the breeding pond, disease, and the possibility of harming wild sea turtle populations with released turtles because of this.

It is important to keep in mind that these island countries do not have to follow the Endangered Species Act - that is purely an American law, and each can make its own laws if they want, albeit in the face of PR problems. The GC farms was created in the wake of a hurricane that destroyed 80% of nesting beaches. The thought was to move breeding in-land to avoid this problem in the future, and also help conservation of sea turtles. since all sea turtles in the Caymans are controlled by the country, it reduces poaching for meat, and increases juvenile survivability. But you can also pick up and hold hatchling turtles there, and interact with them in ways that are completely illegal in the US.