Emotion and Politics: “Bush-Hating” (bit long)

[jrydberg]

Well, it certainly is a different world. I mean, can you imagine the Normandy landings with 24/7 instant news coverage? Thousands dead on a single day with camera crews there to show it to everyone. Not saying instant news coverage is a bad thing, mind you, but it (among many other things) changes an awful lot.

Years ago, actions would be judged weeks later. There was a lot more room for error and correction.

So yes, I think it is highlighted to a greater extent these days. Not sure where that leaves us though

 

[NMAmy]

I was thinking about this just the other day: Why does this man just cause such strong emotions in me and so many other people? I'm a Democrat and while I've been annoyed with Republican presidents, I was also able to see their strong points. I disagreed with a lot that Reagan did but the man was charming and was a great communicator. Bush I -- again, I disagreed with him and while I would get really annoyed listening to him speak (he always sounded like he was chastising the nation like unruly children if he was disagreed with) but, well, heck, I didn't feel that strongly about him...just looked forward to the end of his administration.

I think one thing that frightens me so much about Bush II and Co. is the fact that this country seems to be bringing to life the novel, 1984. Doublespeak is rampant. Paranoia is everywhere. Bring it on. If you're not with us, you're against us. It's a scarey time--I don't like the way this nation is headed--we look like arrogant bullies. And I feel helpless to do anything about it. Except on Election Day.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by rcyannacci
I appreciate your comments.

I think that just because something is stated as a joke is not a reason to discount it. Indeed, a lot of humor is based on an us/them agressiveness- funny if you agree with the position, not funny if you are the side being attacked. This "joke" did more than just make people laugh- it was intended to remind his audience that he is “one of the people,” not any better or smarter than anyone. In this scenario, however, that means that “smart” people become the fall guys for the joke, the outsiders. When did intelligence become a less than worthy goal in this country? When did a college education become more about networking and less about…well, education?

I want someone who respects intelligence to be the president of this country. Do they have to be an A student? No, and I don’t think that we should be checking SAT scores either (Lord knows I’d never be president if that were the case). But shouldn’t the president of our country have invested in his educational experience enough to have at least gone to class? To have challenged themselves to engage in levels of complex thinking? To have the opportunity to hear opposing viewpoints in order to confirm or change your own beliefs?

You hit the nail on the head with your comment that his "'joke' did more than just make people laugh-it was intended to remind his audience that he is 'one of the people'". Your implication that Bush and/or his supporters may not engage in levels of complex thinking, don't consider the other point of view, etc. is not supported by Bush's self-deprecating humor--or anything else, for that matter.

There is no connection between his humor and and your conclusions. As much as the Left continually criticizes Bush's so-called lack of intelligence, I see it much differently. He may not be the best public speaker--sometimes misstating what he MEANS to say. He does, however, have EXCELLENT leadership skills, strength and moral clarity, intelligence, and compassion.

As much as you may perceive my NEXT comment to be a slight, I see Bush and the Administration thinking and acting with the next several steps in mind--analyzing ALL possible outcomes, planning for those, while acting with cause and conviction in hoping to create major reforms that will better our lives and the lives of others' all over the world. I don't see this--at all--with the Democratic Party. They have the corner on perceived compassion, but it's not warranted.

The poster on the previous page stated that she didn't like Bush because she got "a bad feeling" from him; there was something in his eyes she found disagreeable. This is indeed her opinion, but to dislike someone so intently without real cause is dismaying, at least to me.

Bush and his Administration, and their supporters, believe we see the world the way it really is. We believe that unilateralism is not inherently a bad thing, we realize that our agenda may be different than the UN's and the EU's. And, we act with this fact in mind. I, personally, quietly refer to the anti-Bush crowd as Utopians. It seems these folks act and think in ways that don't reflect how the world, in fact, really is; they act and think in the way they wish it to be.

Subsequently--and ironically (considering your post), this causes me to call into question these folks' actual intellectual complexity.

I posted an article/op-ed piece last week regarding the Left's Hatred of Bush. Written by one of the last conservative academics, he seems to me, to be completely correct.

However, on that thread, everyone denied that what they were feeling was actual hate. Maybe it will be more appropriate to submit it for review on this thread-- since many of you already realize that what you are feeling may have no factual basis.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200408130813.asp

 

[peachgirl]

Subsequently--and ironically (considering your post), this causes me to call into question these folks' actual intellectual complexity.

Back to tossing insults around again Kendra??

If we don't vote for Bush, we're stupid?????

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by peachgirl
Back to tossing insults around again Kendra??

If we don't vote for Bush, we're stupid?????

Thank you for your comments. No offense intended. My point, however ineloquent you find it to be, was to contrast the OPs implication that Bush (and therefore, maybe his supporters' too) may lack deep thinking skills with my take on the matter.

I would never call someone stupid on this board, Peachgirl--even you.

Also, I do want to point out that I've seen Kerry supporters refer to us as brainwashed, drinking the koolaid, Hannityites, right-wing liars, etc., etc.

I am only pointing out that I find the thinking of the anti-Bush crowd (who profess to HATE Bush) to be both blinded by their hatred and limited by their Utopian vision of the world.

 

[rcyannacci]

Kendra, I actually did read that thread and the article that you linked. As I remember, however, your comments seemed mainly addressed to the right, asking them to speculate why the left engaged in "Bush hating." I thought it was interesting that the thread and the article questioned and came up with answers about why the left hates Bush without actually asking those on the left to clarify their positions, which is why I chose not to post and save my comments for another forum.

I'm also interested in your comments about Utopian thinking, which is a topic that has come up frequently in my discussions with other educators. Utopian thinking can be a very powerful and productive exercise; the first step in creating a world of increased social justice is to first imagine what that world might be. Utopian thinking gives us the opportunity to rehearse alternates, to train ourselves to think beyond current barriers. So if you want to call me a Utopian, I accept that (and the power that comes with it) and take pride in my hopes for the future.

Finally, yes, it is entirely likely that Bush Inc. engages in complex issues/thinking daily, but this is not the image that they chose to project to the public. Time and time again, they have labeled complex thinking as flip-flopping and wishy-washiness. Bush's speeches continually simplify today's political issues to matters of "common sense" with yes/no, either/or answers. If he is struggling with some of these issues, "analyzing ALL possible outcomes," then why not make that process public?

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by NMAmy
I think one thing that frightens me so much about Bush II and Co. is the fact that this country seems to be bringing to life the novel, 1984. Doublespeak is rampant. Paranoia is everywhere. Bring it on. If you're not with us, you're against us.

I've read 1984 too, and I would say that the way the Bush adminsitration "speaks" is the absolute opposite of doublespeak. A more realistic complaint would be that a more nuanced way of phrasing things would be more appropriate.

OTOH, when Kerry (who uses "bring it on" too) was asked at the first Democratic debate about his votes to authorize the Iraq war, he said:

''If we hadn't voted the way we voted, we would not have been able to have a chance of going to the United Nations and stopping the president, in effect, who already had the votes and who was obviously asking serious questions about whether or not the Congress was going to be there to enforce the effort to create a threat.''

Now that is the very definition of doublespeak.

 

[rcyannacci]

Originally posted by Kendra17
Thank you for your comments. No offense intended. My point, however ineloquent you find it to be, was to contrast the OPs implication that Bush (and therefore, maybe his supporters' too) may lack deep thinking skills with my take on the matter.

I would never call someone stupid on this board, Peachgirl--even you.

Also, I do want to point out that I've seen Kerry supporters refer to us as brainwashed, drinking the koolaid, Hannityites, right-wing liars, etc., etc.

I am only pointing out that I find the thinking of the anti-Bush crowd (who profess to HATE Bush) to be both blinded by their hatred and limited by their Utopian vision of the world.

First, my original comments only spoke to Bush's anti-intellectual attitude and did not refer to his supporters.

Second, I believe that my comments were less a pronouncement of hate and more of a questioning of the role that emotions play in an election year and the tendency to devalue them by calling them "hate." The right wants me to say that I "hate" Bush, because it allows them to write off my position as irrational. My question was whether hate can be rationalized.

 

[year2late]

I think for many emotions run high because they fear for the safety of their family. I, for one, worry that my (now 10 year old) son will likely be drafted to war in the future becasue of the arrogance of our current administration. We essentially launch a country into a civil war - it will not end pretty it will not end soon.It was more than forseeable. Our standing in the global community sucks at this point - and that is very frightening.

 

[totalia]

Let me begin by saying a few things.

Yes I am Canadian and not American. That fact seems to get American hackles up so I will explain why I have reason to hate Bush.

I have a vested interested in what happens in the United States. I'm getting married to an American and currently awaiting for a Visa so that I can move and work there to be with my fiance. I LOVE the United States, as much as I love Canada. Both are really incredible countries with incredible people.

So then the question "Why do I hate Bush?"

Simple, his foreign and domestic policy is horrible. I think that if any person is likely to cause World War III, it's him.

He takes the country to war in Iraq with little to no actual proof on anything about WMD's. The only thing that was found was a few ounces of a bioweapon. In the entire country, there hasn't been more than that. No nukes, nothing.

So he destroyed a country.

But it doesn't stop there. Yes Hussein was a bad bad person. We all know and accept this as the truth. He had to be taken out of power which would have happened sooner or later anyway.

However, the next big problem comes with the fact that he gave the UN the finger when he wanted to commit the war (yes I mean that to sound like committing an act of murder because that's what war is) and yet, now he doesn't want to clean up the mess he made. He destroyed a people, yet he doesn't want to pay to help fix them. Instead, he wants the UN to do it.

America started the war, they can bloody well finish it properly. If he took it on, then he needs to fix the damage.

Then he starts the "no child left behind" crap. Children will be left behind. People will be passed up in grades whether they can actually do the work or not. It's not making teachers give extra effort, it's making them find ways around it.

Then the billions of dollars spent on a terror warning system that seems to do little other than serve to scare people with its colors. It's gotten to the point that it seems most Americans are just shrugging and ignoring it.

He talks against abortion (says there's no excuse except that there are times when abortion is ok. Like if the mother is going to die if she stays pregnant. Times when its one or the other, not both) and against Gay Marriage (if two people love each other, why can't they have the same rights as any couple like being able to go into their loved ones hospital room?).

When there were protests to all of these things, Bush decided to give everyone a tax break (love to know how he's financing his little war then. Taxes are what pays the bills). Despite the fact that this is obviously to buy off the American people to gain himself support (how yall can't notice that's what he's done, is completely beyond me), everyone lauded this as a wonderful thing to do.

In the meantime trillions are being spent on this war with very little effect. You still don't have Bin Laden and not much at all has really been accomplished except for much of the world hating the US even worse than before and alot of death and pain.

That being said, let me explain what he did to Canada. Oddly, it seems that 99% of Americans don't have a clue what we did to help the US after 9/11. But then, I suppose that shouldn't surprise me given Bush's reaction to our help.

When 9/11 happened, we were as horrifyed as you.

We shut down all of OUR borders.

Then we allowed YOUR planes to land in our airports taking the risk ourselves that your country wasn't willing to take.

Then we had inspectors go over every tiny bit of the planes, inside and out, to look for ANY sign of a bomb. Every single passanger was investigated before ever allowing them off the planes. Sometimes that took days but it was a massive effort on our part to get them off as quickly as possible (I think the slowest took just over 24 hours).

Then we adopted the families. Canadians offered to board and care for them until the American borders were reopened.

We gave them housing, clothing, food, entertainment, and medical attention, not to mention getting them in touch with their American families over the border, spending BILLIONS of dollars and many many hours of work to help it.

It was OUR airlines that funded the return trip to the US.

But we weren't done yet.

In the meantime we sent over blood, doctors, nurses, paramedics, firetrucks, firemen, medical supplies, food, and anyone or anything else that might help to alleviate some of the suffering the US was going through.

None of us (or maybe very few of us) did any of this because of political reasons. We did it for love of our American brothers and sisters. We may look on you with an amused fondness and once in a while want to smack yall on the back of the head for the thing you do, but we do love the States (most of us anyway).

Then we joined his war against Afghanistan, again at our own expense. Granted apparently Bush tried to tell us what we were supposed to do which made our Prime Minister very angry and he said on tv "Canada will not be told what to do. We run our own country and we make our own decisions."

We asked NOTHING in return for what we did for the US. Though a thank you would have been bloody well nice.

Bush's address to the public after the incident included a thank you to every other country in the world that helped in even the tiniest bit. Canada didn't even get a cursory thank you. When Bush was asked later why he didn't say thank you to us for all that we did (which was more than any other country in the world did) he went really red (I was watching the tv when this happened. I didn't realize someone could go that red with embarassment and have it show up on tv. Usually you need makeup for that effect) and said this really ridiculous little line that looked like he was trying to cover his butt "Well we consider Canada our brothers and didn't think a thank you was needed." In other words, he forgot.

We should have been first on the list, not forgotten.

Things have gotten much worse from there. I don't like the man. I think he's going to lead the world into another World war if he gets reelected. He's probably the single most dangerous man in the world.

Why do I hate Bush? It should be pretty obvious. If he stays in power, he could kill us all.

Edit: Now thats completely dismissing the fact that the president should have better than average ability with the English language. Considering the things I've heard come out of his mouth, he needs english lessons. There's an old saying "How well you speak gives a measure of your intelligence." Judging by what comes out of his mouth, he must barely be more intelligent than a kindergartner.

 

[totalia]

*bump*

 

[KarenC]

In any administration, the President is surrounded by bright, ambitious people who have strong convictions and varied agendas. Those advisors don't always agree with each other. I firmly believe that the President needs to be intelligent enough to ask the right questions and make the right decisions.

I think Bush's well-documented lack of intellectual curiosity is dangerous, particularly because many of his "neoconservative" advisors have such controversial, untested approaches to solving the problems of our world.

Just today, with the damage to the shrine at Najaf, I am once again worried about what Bush has done to our country. I fear that instead of just having Iraqi insurgants angry at us, we have made enemies of all Islamic people. Iran is now threatening a pre-emptive strike against us. History will not treat us kindly.

I don't hate Geoge Bush. I think he's a terrible president. I've voted for republicans for president before, and I probably will again. But generally I am comforted when I believe that the President is smarter than I am, has more information than I do and that he makes decisions that are right for America. I don't believe any of those things with this particular President.

 

[wvrevy]

Despite the claims of some on the right, I am not a "Bush hater" either. I do not hate the man, though I hate nearly everything the man stands for. I hate the fact that disagreement with the president has somehow become "un-patriotic". I hate the fact that his Karl Rovian attack dogs smear the name of anyone that stands in their way to power. I hate the fact that Bush thinks his morals are the only ones that matter, and that my tax dollars should be going to fund his evangelical BS. I hate the fact that Bush's people have labeled a vote against him as a vote for terrorism. I hate the fact that we have a president that sounds like a nervous 7th grader every time he speaks publically. I hate the hypocrisy that Bush and many of his supporters show when criticizing people for traits they themselves show on a regular basis. I hate the fact that at least two good men, John McCain and Max Cleeland, were treated as less than dirt by the limy, racist tactics of the Bush campaign. I hate the fact that we're in a war that we're not easily going to get out of without leaving absolute chaos behind us. I hate the fact that we're no more than a heartbeat away from another war, this time in Iran. I hate the fact that Bush thinks it's more important for a millionaire to be able to buy that 9th Ferrari while middle class moms are wondering how the hell they're going to pay their outrageous heating bills this winter. I hate the fact that Bush will NEVER admit he's wrong, about ANYTHING. I hate the fact that he refuses to even pick up a newspaper, and so relies only on the people around him to get ONE view of the world. I hate the fact that Bush's VP was in charge of a company that committed fraud, but if you bring this up people just dismiss it. I hate the fact that this list is this long, and could get even longer if I wasn't tired of writing

But no...I don't hate the man.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by rcyannacci
First, my original comments only spoke to Bush's anti-intellectual attitude and did not refer to his supporters.

Second, I believe that my comments were less a pronouncement of hate and more of a questioning of the role that emotions play in an election year and the tendency to devalue them by calling them "hate." The right wants me to say that I "hate" Bush, because it allows them to write off my position as irrational. My question was whether hate can be rationalized.

I have read your thoughts regarding Utopian thinking. I appreciate your honesty an am impressed you justify it. I will respond to this later this evening. Quickly, though, if more Kerry supporters would admit this, I think the discussions to be had would be much more productive and thought-provoking than the ones we've been having.

Speaking of Bush' "anti-intellectual attitude" is not so very different than what I addressed. Considering the current slurs that are made regarding his intelligence or lack thereof--and those of his supporters-- on this board and elsewhere, I believe I answered accordingly.

I'm not certain that "the Right" wants you to say you "hate" Bush because "the Right" can then write your position off as irrational. We understand you have those hateful feelings and I have personally held the belief that many Democrats have those feelings even when they have been denied (the vicious nature of the comments directed towards Bush have shaped my opinion).

 

[totalia]

Hmm, I forgot about the Anti anyotherreligionbutChristianity stance he has. One more strike against him.

 

[Mickey_loves_Minnie]

Originally posted by KarenC
I don't hate Geoge Bush. I think he's a terrible president. I've voted for republicans for president before, and I probably will again. But generally I am comforted when I believe that the President is smarter than I am, has more information than I do and that he makes decisions that are right for America. I don't believe any of those things with this particular President.

That's just how I feel.

 

[Lisa96]

As much as the Left continually criticizes Bush's so-called lack of intelligence, I see it much differently. He may not be the best public speaker--sometimes misstating what he MEANS to say.

I just have to ask this - if he mis-states when he speaks, how is it you know what he MEANS to say? If it were only once or twice, perhaps you could get the gist of it and laugh it off, but the man is consistently speaking gibberish. And sorry, but when I hear :
"This very week in 1989, there were protests in East Berlin and in Leipzig. By the end of that year, every communist dictatorship in Central America had collapsed." I have to really worry - the PRESIDENT doesn't even know the difference between Europe and Central America, how can I trust his foreign policies?

Bush and his Administration, and their supporters, believe we see the world the way it really is.

I have to say that my feeling is that Bush and his supporters see the world as (mostly-white, middle/upper class) Americans. There is very little thought given to how the other countries of the world act, think or live and that is why we are in such deep trouble in Iraq. I have been to the Middle East, I know many Muslims and you cannot approach that area with the mindset of a Western culture and have it be acceptable. They do not like the American way of life and hate the (justified) feeling that we are trying to impose our ways on them. When we do that via aggression we are acting toward them as terrorists have toward the US - trying to force a change in beliefs by warfare. As far as the EU goes, Bush went out of his way to push them aside, saying we weren't interested in involvement in NATO or the World Court, then got angry when France & Germany didn't rush to back HIM up after 9/11.

Totalia, maybe Bush didn't remember the generosity and caring of Canada, but this is one American who hasn't forgotten it! Maybe it's because my grandparents are Canadian, but I think you guys are the best up there, eh?

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by totalia
Hmm, I forgot about the Anti anyotherreligionbutChristianity stance he has. One more strike against him.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Tink&SquirtsMom]

I, personally, quietly refer to the anti-Bush crowd as Utopians.

That made me chuckle, because the best description I've ever heard of Bush is that he is a radical distopian. I don't consider myself a utopian.I don't believe the world is ever going to join together with food for all, love for everyone, hold hands and sing kumbya. But I am absolutely opposed to unilateralism. To not recognize that it is indeed "a small world afterall" and that our actions and policies do have consequences worldwide is not as you said

thinking and acting with the next several steps in mind

it's shortsighted and scary. There are alot of things to consider in that argument (to many to list during my kids short nap), but consider China who is going through their Industrial Revolution right now largely supported by the income from interest they are gaining off our national debt. This has implications not only for our economy, job prospects, technology, but our environment, and on. Iraq, which has been shown to have not provided an immenient threat to us has now become a hotbed of terrorist recruiting. Russia, which has said the adminstrations sense of "exclusiveness" could lead to another cold war. And while you focused on the EU and the UN, let us not forget the G8 which Bush has also criticized and ignored. One cannot assume that because we are the leader in the world now that we always will be (and I would venture to say that with the way the current administration is bowing to the Saudi's, we no longer are the most powerful nation in the world, as the Saudi's appear to have us by the balls with their oil, money and influence).

 

[Disney Doll]

It's a shame that the OP's original, well-thought -out post has degenrated into Bush-bashing, once again, without facts backing it up. Not your opinions, but facts.

Meanwhile, can anyone tell me what Kerry will do better or differently? Because I will tell oyu that I have made numerous attempts to find out Senator Kerry's actual stance on several issues, have read interviews & article sin reputable magazines (ie-Newsweek, Time), have looked at johnkerry.com, watched the DNC on TV, heard his speech and the speeches of many of the other eloquent Democratic speakers, and what I heard them say is "we need to do this" and "we need to do that" and John Kerry will do this" or "John Kerry will do that", but I never heard anyone tell me HOW. I never heard specifics about how things will get done.

I have also not heard much from President Bush giving me any specifics either. That's what I dislike about this election. No one is giving any specific information, on which to base an INFORMED decision.

I agree with the poster who said the world is watching this election with great interest. We had 8 years of a Democratic President who did little in terms of "fighting back" against terrorist activity that occurred during his terms, and I often wonder if that gave "the world" the idea that we were pushovers. Now we have 4 years of a President who is more aggressive and "the world" doesn't like that either. Almost seems to me that the USA is damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I have a problem with the 2 wealthy candidates and their equally wealthy VP candidates saying they understand the middle class people and their struggles. I have a problem with John Kerry calling Whoopi Goldberg et al the "heart and soul of America", when, quite frankly, I would never dream of making such distatsteful comments about anyone, let alone the President. I have a problem with politicians in general, which is not limited to political party. I am tired of voting for the lesser of 2 evils.