Electric Cars

[holden]

I had a Tesla when they first came out. I liked it, but a minor fender bender caused $10,000 in damage and a six month wait for my car to be fixed (other driver's insurance paid for the repair and the rental). After that, I decided to get rid of it because I didn't want to go through that again.

I now have a Volvo hybrid and I love it. It's the best car I've ever owned.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Over here, cars are aggressively becoming electric only, with a total ban on petrol and diesel cars for sale coming just around the corner. We've had a few electric cars and so far, they're great! But you DO really need a home charging kit, which is far from practical when you don't have a drive to park on. Thoughts?

The Good.
They're very nice for around town where about 90% of driving is done. You can recharge em at home and usually it's not too much of a hassle.
The Bad.
They're not so good for the long haul. Recharge times and mileage are just not up to snuff. Even the so-called robust and reliable Tesla supercharger network is neither robust enough, nor reliable. Furthermore, if you want to go off the beaten path out west, you're in for some heavy back tracking because of the need for charging. And well most of us aren't going to have cars for just around town and another for long haul.
Some makes and models are notoriously expensive to repair.
The Ugly.
Ever seen one catch on fire? They're an absolute witch to put out and keep out.

I think that before electric cars become mainstream, we would need two things:

1. More fast charging points throughout the country
2. Higher capacity batteries, which look like they're just around the corner.

Higher capacity batteries have been just around the corner for over a decade now. This is not a technology problem just waiting to be easily solved. In fact, we already have the technology to make a battery that can go 1000 miles on a charge and charge up in 5 minutes if we wanted to. Why don't we do it then? The longevity would be garbage and the safety even worse. What we have is a a laws of thermodynamics problem.

Yep. Someone has been listening to misinformation. While it is true you lose range in extreme cold a figure of 30-40% loss of range is considered high. In Iowa I lose about 20%. I got an extended range battery for just that reason. Even in the cold I have adequate range. It does not become unusable, though. Also, even putting in the reduced range in winter, I’m paying about 1/3 the fuel cost as in my ICE car.

Yes. This is one person’s experience. But is it less trustworthy than information possibly put out by petroleum interests? Look at the motivations behind your sources of information before you repeat it.

A 20% loss in range is still significant. And it makes a vehicle not all that great for the long haul even worse. It still works for around town. That is, I should say still works for around town when the Tesla decides it wants to let you charge it up.

When you count having to use the heater, snow tires, and everything, these guys lost 40%.

They ran from 96% to 2%. And 2% is well below what I'd ever want to go when it's zero degrees outside. 150 miles even if you have good infrastructure around is highly inconvenient for the long haul. But many places don't. Anyone that has been in Wisconsin north of Wausau can tell you 150 miles of range 96-2 is not acceptable. That is less than 100 miles if we're going to stay within 80-20.

 

[_19disnA]

Just saw an article that Apple has pulled the plug on their effort to develop an EV.

 

[tvguy]

I think I'm right in saying that many London Buses now run on Hydrogen Fuel Cells and very successfully too. Mind you, that COULD be a figment of my own imagination!

I know two people with Toyota Miraris. Amazing hydrogen fuel cell cars. But fueling was a challenge physically. The safety systems shut the pumps down in cold weather, and need 15 minutes to reset. And now all the fueling stations in our county closed. So not a good option right now.

 

[dizneegirl]

The Bad.
They're not so good for the long haul. Recharge times and mileage are just not up to snuff. Even the so-called robust and reliable Tesla supercharger network is neither robust enough, nor reliable. Furthermore, if you want to go off the beaten path out west, you're in for some heavy back tracking because of the need for charging. And well most of us aren't going to have cars for just around town and another for long haul.

We routinely drive to WDW (2000+ miles roundtrip), and have not had a problem doing so since our first trip in 2018. We've also had more and more chargers added on our route since then - we can now pick and choose when and where we stop depending on which locations we prefer and/or which are faster.

Last year, we drove to Boca Chica, TX (3000+ miles roundtrip). No problems with finding chargers there, either.

Our longest charging stop was 1 hour. Most times, we were in and out in 30 minutes or so... just about the right amount of time to use a restroom, get a snack/drink or meal, or wander through a Buccee's.

 

[hertamaniac]

From what I have read/heard, the EV market has/is experiencing higher depreciation, than the traditional ICE counterparts. If true, it makes sense to me given the lack of hitting the projected sales and adoption rates.

Yes, most/all vehicles depreciate, but from the data I've seen, the EV curve is steeper.

 

[hertamaniac]

I know two people with Toyota Miraris. Amazing hydrogen fuel cell cars. But fueling was a challenge physically. The safety systems shut the pumps down in cold weather, and need 15 minutes to reset. And now all the fueling stations in our county closed. So not a good option right now.

I think this is the technology that will leapfrog the EV/ICE market in a decade or two.

 

[tvguy]

From what I have read/heard, the EV market has/is experiencing higher depreciation, than the traditional ICE counterparts. If true, it makes sense to me given the lack of hitting the projected sales and adoption rates.

Yes, most/all vehicles depreciate, but from the data I've seen, the EV curve is steeper.

That is what got my son and daughter in law to buy their first EV, a used Fiat 500e. Sold new for $34,000 BEFORE federal and state tax credits. They got it 2 years old with 25,000 miles for $7,000. So that is a very steep depreciation curve. Hertz is selling used Tesla Model 3's for under $21,000. https://www.hertzcarsales.com/certi...-Model+3-ce2528940a0e0a9a48692d30b94db4d4.htm

 

[hertamaniac]

I think I'm right in saying that many London Buses now run on Hydrogen Fuel Cells and very successfully too. Mind you, that COULD be a figment of my own imagination!

It was not your imagination. Actually, they tested and might be currently working on flywheels too.

I worked with two somewhat prominent Formula 1 teams on hybrid battery technology years ago during the adoption period. One of them was in full test mode using a flywheel as energy storage in the race cars.

 

[kdonnel]

From what I have read/heard, the EV market has/is experiencing higher depreciation, than the traditional ICE counterparts. If true, it makes sense to me given the lack of hitting the projected sales and adoption rates.

Yes, most/all vehicles depreciate, but from the data I've seen, the EV curve is steeper.

Part of the steeper curve is accounting for the tax credit.

I got $1875 for one car and $7500 for the other. The tax credit should and does directly impact the used value.

For example a Tesla Model Y Rear-Wheel Drive has an MSRP of $41,700 but qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit taking the real price to $34,200.

A car loses 9 to 11 percent of its value the instant it is purchased and driven off the lot. And in the case of a car with a large tax credit, the depreciated value should be taken off the true cost which means subtracting out the tax credit.

So that $41,700 MSRP Tesla is worth as little as $31,000 the instant it is purchased which makes it look like it lost 26% of its value but that is because of the tax credit.

 

[hertamaniac]

And now that it appears the current administration is further constricting federal tax credits, it will feed to further steepening of the depreciation curves. And that's not even factoring in advancements in battery technologies for quicker charges and/or more range. A double edged sword for current EV owners who are upside down in value.

Early adopters almost, if not always, pay the highest depreciation.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

From what I have read/heard, the EV market has/is experiencing higher depreciation, than the traditional ICE counterparts. If true, it makes sense to me given the lack of hitting the projected sales and adoption rates.

Yes, most/all vehicles depreciate, but from the data I've seen, the EV curve is steeper.

BEVs are unfamiliar tech and people are risk adverse. Not surprising to see them depreciate steeply.

I think this is the technology that will leapfrog the EV/ICE market in a decade or two.

Hydrogen has a whole bunch of hurdles to get through. Highly unlikely it will ever be a real player in our infrastructure.

 

[tvguy]

Then you have the issue in cities like Sacramento and Palo Alto where developers are being allowed to build new housing with NO parking. Residents with cars would be forced to park on the street and find public charging stations to charge their EVs.
https://engagesac.org/blog-civic-en...amento-at-the-forefront-of-pro-housing-cities

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Then you have the issue in cities like Sacramento and Palo Alto where developers are being allowed to build new housing with NO parking. Residents with cars would be forced to park on the street and find public charging stations to charge their EVs.
https://engagesac.org/blog-civic-en...amento-at-the-forefront-of-pro-housing-cities

You’re assuming that the lack of a regulation will result in zero parking. It’s more about properly valuing the space instead of putting blanket requirements on it written by bureaucrats. Developers will do what the market values.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

We routinely drive to WDW (2000+ miles roundtrip), and have not had a problem doing so since our first trip in 2018. We've also had more and more chargers added on our route since then - we can now pick and choose when and where we stop depending on which locations we prefer and/or which are faster.

Last year, we drove to Boca Chica, TX (3000+ miles roundtrip). No problems with finding chargers there, either.

Our longest charging stop was 1 hour. Most times, we were in and out in 30 minutes or so... just about the right amount of time to use a restroom, get a snack/drink or meal, or wander through a Buccee's.

Wandering through Buccees isn't why people go on vacation. Nor does it take them 30 minutes to go to the rest room. You're doing it because there's nothing better to do while your car is charging. That is a minus for most people not a plus. I have to stop once for gas only once in that same 1,000 miles and that will take me 10 minutes with a bathroom break. I am not limited to the food around a charger. I can stop anywhere I please for lunch. Whereas you, would face additional delays if you ate anywhere not near a charger. While you're charging up, I can stop and see interesting things or I can choose to beat you to WDW by 3 hours and get to the parks faster. And if we're coming from a cold weather area and it's cold, you're going to need additional stops until you're out of the cold weather. That's really a drag for most people. Like I said. They are not there yet for the long haul for most of us.

 

[OKW Lover]

Wandering through Buccees isn't why people go on vacation. Nor does it take them 30 minutes to go to the rest room. You're doing it because there's nothing better to do while your car is charging.

I drive an ICE (actually a hybrid) and on long road trips I love stopping at Buccees along the way. I do typically spent 30 minutes at one between getting gas, going to the restroom, shopping and having something to eat.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Wandering through Buccees isn't why people go on vacation.

We picked a slightly longer route on the last road trip to visit Buc-ee’s haha. Was definitely part of our vacation.

 

[hertamaniac]

We are getting a new 80,000 sq. ft. Buc-ee's on I-75 north of Orlando (Ocala) with a new interchange.

It is slated to get 120 gas pumps and roughly 20-30 charging stations. But, the one Buc-ee's I've been to at Daytona Beach had no indoor/outdoor seating. That's a limitation on dwell time for us.

 

[dizneegirl]

When we go on vacation, the trip is part of the experience... we enjoy stopping here and there along the way, ICE or EV. And we've been known to pick up food on our way to a charger, if there's something we'd like to eat on the way.

I'm not saying EVs are for everyone. I'm just giving real-world experience... might open up discussions, or help people come to their own conclusions.

And I'm excited about that Ocala Buc-ee's!

 

[tvguy]

You’re assuming that the lack of a regulation will result in zero parking. It’s more about properly valuing the space instead of putting blanket requirements on it written by bureaucrats. Developers will do what the market values.

It has been a nightmare already with one complex where the city allowed an apartment building that houses up to 800 people has only 300 parking spots.

https://www.abc10.com/article/news/...king/103-5c5441c2-8aec-4d85-86d1-133d2d4e106a