Electric Cars

[hertamaniac]

One of the criteria that makes it fit is the load range or load index.

The load range/index needs to meet or exceed the vehicle manufacturer recommendation.

The Michelin Primacy A/S tires that came on my car are no different than the Michelin Primacy A/S tires that come on hundreds of thousands of ICE cars.

And the citations I listed above point to the need for a more durable (higher rated) tire due to the EV weight disadvantage.

An ICE variant of the same exact model should require a lower load rating and be less costly to manufacturer. So while an EV may have an OEM tire to meet the requirements and can be cross matched, I suspect the ICE comparison weighs less and is not subjected to the same loads.

 

[kdonnel]

And the citations I listed above point to the need for a more durable (higher rated) tire due to the EV weight disadvantage.

An ICE variant of the same exact model should require a lower load rating and be less costly to manufacturer. So while an EV may have an OEM tire to meet the requirements and can be cross matched, I suspect the ICE comparison weighs less and is not subjected to the same loads.

But the ICE comparisons often don't weight appreciably less.

SUV:
KIA EV6 3,984 to 4,795 lbs
Volkswagen ID.4 4,308 to 4,907 lbs
Mustang Mach e 4,394 to 4,920 lbs
Ford Explorer 4,344 to 4,766 lbs
Honda Pilot 4,306 to 4,418 lbs

Sedan:
Toyota Camry 3,310 to 3,595 lbs
Tesla Model 3 3,552 lb

While the battery might weigh a 1000 lbs on average, there are also many heavy components in an ICE that are not in an EV.

The end result is that there are already millions of cars on the road that weight the same as the average EV and have tires.

 

[Lumpy1106]

Ideally from my point of view batteries should be made with greater capacity and charging points made uniformly faster.

I think ultimately it will require the help of the vey companies that are currently providing access to the current fuel source; the oil companies. They already have an abundant network (the gas stations) and ample regulatory restrictions to eliminate the shenanigan's and provide price transparency. After all, you are completely naïve if you think that the electricity to charge all these electric vehicles will be free, or even not heavily taxed. The government is going to get their cut on the auspices of "maintaining the roads" as they do currently with gas. IOW, we are in the "wild-west" phase of electric vehicles, if they are to be the thing moving forward. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Lumpy1106]

One of the criteria that makes it fit is the load range or load index.

The load range/index needs to meet or exceed the vehicle manufacturer recommendation.

The Michelin Primacy A/S tires that came on my car are no different than the Michelin Primacy A/S tires that come on hundreds of thousands of ICE cars.

We have PIH Ford Fusion and a PIH Chevy Volt. Both are rated for a special tire, but not because the vehicle is heavier. They are selling a certain fuel efficiency that can only be achieved with a certain tire type.

Here in CA the garages are required to check the air in your tires every time you bring the car in for even the smallest thing. The govt. wants you to believe that it's for fuel efficiency (and that is not wrong), but that requirement goes back to when the Ford Explorers were involved in a rash of roll-over accidents. Drivers were purposely deflating their tires to get better traction and the tires were failing. In response, the govt. put in the requirement to check the air pressure. The cars and tires have since been re-designed, but the requirement remains.

 

[kdonnel]

We have PIH Ford Fusion and a PIH Chevy Volt. Both are rated for a special tire, but not because the vehicle is heavier. They are selling a certain fuel efficiency that can only be achieved with a certain tire type.

We did NOT put low rolling resistance tires back on our Chevy Bolt when it needed new tires.

The low rolling resistance tires that came on the car were dangerous in the rain. We put just regular tires with the correct load range/index and have not looked back. It no longer feels like the car is going to slide out from under us in the rain.

I'm sure we saw some drop in efficiency but based on my wife's driving style and commute the car is still at 3.7 mi/kWh lifetime.

I think to hit the EPA rating you have to hit 3.8 so even without the low rolling resistance tires she is very close.

 

[kdonnel]

The government is going to get their cut on the auspices of "maintaining the roads" as they do currently with gas.

Many states have instituted annual renewal fees to capture the lost gas tax revenue.

Some are a flat fee, some a flat fee adjusted yearly, others more complicated.

Georgia is one of the more complicated. They make an estimate as to how many miles the average Georgia driver drove the year prior and how much gas it would have taken to drive those miles and then tack that onto the annual registration renewal.

Seems relatively fair for the average driver. The low mileage drivers might be upset, the high mileage drives happy.

I am using the roads and should pay for their creation and maintenance. If that is currently funded through a gas tax, I should pay an alternative tax.

This page talks about various states, what they are doing, and what they are going to do.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/electric-vehicles-ev-taxes-state/

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

We have PIH Ford Fusion and a PIH Chevy Volt. Both are rated for a special tire, but not because the vehicle is heavier. They are selling a certain fuel efficiency that can only be achieved with a certain tire type.

Here in CA the garages are required to check the air in your tires every time you bring the car in for even the smallest thing. The govt. wants you to believe that it's for fuel efficiency (and that is not wrong), but that requirement goes back to when the Ford Explorers were involved in a rash of roll-over accidents. Drivers were purposely deflating their tires to get better traction and the tires were failing. In response, the govt. put in the requirement to check the air pressure. The cars and tires have since been re-designed, but the requirement remains.

Mandated tire pressure monitoring systems also came out of that.

 

[bcla]

What does the volume of the car have to do with the wear of the tires?

Either a tire is rated to support the weight of the vehicle or it is not.

Tire manufacturers have had no problem making appropriate tires for vehicles that weight 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000, etc.

Any tire with the correct load rating (and size, speed etc) is fine.

As for performance, not everyone is looking to go 0-60 in 3 seconds. I have never understood the fascination with 0-60 times.

I borrowed a Tesla Model 3 once with about 50K miles on it, and I think it was still on the factory tires. They were close to the wear bars though. The tires were wearing pretty evenly though, and I'm thinking they were rotated to even out wear.

I'd think weight is only one factor. A bigger one might be the instant torque that electric motors can put out that can chirp the tires as well as hard braking. Of course it's pretty easy to drive mildly. I always did. But a lot of drivers are tempted to constantly drive hard because it's so easy. The one thing that could be theoretically done is to program the drive settings to reduce tire wear, but I'm not sure if drivers really want that.

 

[tony67]

I am using the roads and should pay for their creation and maintenance. If that is currently funded through a gas tax, I should pay an alternative tax.

This page talks about various states, what they are doing, and what they are going to do.

Of course there is also talk of taxing everyone for mileage - for all vehicles - comes up pretty regularly and will eventually happen.
Of course the gas powered ones will also continue to pay the gas tax as well.
Many states require an inspection every year -and record the milage anyway so the already have the info - very easy to tax.
Oh and in some of those same states we have tolls to pay for the roads, that have already paid for the roads multiple times over, but the tolls are still there.
Local taxes and federal money from taxes also pay for a big part of the roads.
So no I'm not for a new tax - maybe if we spent the money we already raise in taxes more reasonably we would have some decent roads.

You want to talk about tires - regardless of what kind of vehicle you have the bad roads are a much bigger problem than gas vs electric IMO.

 

[hertamaniac]

But the ICE comparisons often don't weight appreciably less.

SUV:
Mustang Mach e 4,394 to 4,920 lbs

Sedan:
Toyota Camry 3,310 to 3,595 lbs
Tesla Model 3 3,552 lb

SUV:
Mustang Mach E 4,394 to 4,920 lbs.
Kia Soul 2,888 to 2,988 lbs.

I'd venture to say that is a considerable difference in weight (almost a full ton).

Sedans:
Toyota Corolla 2,955 to 3,150 lbs.
Tesla Model 3 4,030 lbs. from Tesla's website

Toyota Camry 3,310 to 3,350 lbs. non-hybrid
Tesla Model S 4,560 lbs. from Tesla's website

I think ~1,200 lbs. is a huge difference in vehicle weight.

My original point is that the weight difference between an EV and ICE is not negligible.

 

[kdonnel]

SUV:
Mustang Mach E 4,394 to 4,920 lbs.
Kia Soul 2,888 to 2,988 lbs.

I'd venture to say that is a considerable difference in weight (almost a full ton).

Sedans:
Toyota Corolla 2,955 to 3,150 lbs.
Tesla Model 3 4,030 lbs. from Tesla's website

Toyota Camry 3,310 to 3,350 lbs. non-hybrid
Tesla Model S 4,560 lbs. from Tesla's website

I think ~1,200 lbs. is a huge difference in vehicle weight.

My original point is that the weight difference between an EV and ICE is not negligible.

My point is there are millions of 4000-5000 pound cars/suv that have been produced. Millions of cars/suv that need tires with a load rating/index for that weight.

Millions of cars/suv that have been on the road for decades that required tires with the same load index/range as an EV.

Millions of cars/suvs weighing 4000-5000 pounds parking in parking decks.

Articles that suddenly say a problem with EV is tires and their weight are displaying their bias and ignoring the millions of cars/suv that have been on the road for decades.

 

[hertamaniac]

My point is there are millions of 4000-5000 pound cars/suv that have been produced. Millions of cars/suv that need tires with a load rating/index for that weight.

Millions of cars/suv that have been on the road for decades that required tires with the same load index/range as an EV.

Millions of cars/suvs weighing 4000-5000 pounds parking in parking decks.

Articles that suddenly say a problem with EV is tires and their weight are displaying their bias and ignoring the millions of cars/suv that have been on the road for decades.

But now the EV increased weight delta could inject millions of 5,000 - 7,000 lb. vehicles which is well above the original design intent of the structures. And if you go down the route of larger SUV's (like the Suburban mentioned previously) you could start broaching on the Hummer EV at a whopping 9,063 lbs.

The concrete columns and beams don't care what tire is on the vehicle only that the re-bar and correct psi concrete can withstand the additional loads. Take that same parking deck and add, I don't know, 20-30% additional weight and I would say you have an under designed deck.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Of course there is also talk of taxing everyone for mileage - for all vehicles - comes up pretty regularly and will eventually happen.
Of course the gas powered ones will also continue to pay the gas tax as well.
Many states require an inspection every year -and record the milage anyway so the already have the info - very easy to tax.
Oh and in some of those same states we have tolls to pay for the roads, that have already paid for the roads multiple times over, but the tolls are still there.
Local taxes and federal money from taxes also pay for a big part of the roads.
So no I'm not for a new tax - maybe if we spent the money we already raise in taxes more reasonably we would have some decent roads.

A large portion of vehicles produced today have some kind of internet connection. I think it is likely that we will see a tax per mile at some point with the data pulled directly from vehicles.

SUV:
Mustang Mach E 4,394 to 4,920 lbs.
Kia Soul 2,888 to 2,988 lbs.

I'd venture to say that is a considerable difference in weight (almost a full ton).

Sedans:
Toyota Corolla 2,955 to 3,150 lbs.
Tesla Model 3 4,030 lbs. from Tesla's website

Toyota Camry 3,310 to 3,350 lbs. non-hybrid
Tesla Model S 4,560 lbs. from Tesla's website

I think ~1,200 lbs. is a huge difference in vehicle weight.

My original point is that the weight difference between an EV and ICE is not negligible.

Kia Soul length: 165.2”
Ford Mach-E length: 186”

A Chevy Bolt would be a much better comparison to the Kia Soul at 163.2”. The quality of the vehicles are also similar (the Mach E is much nicer than the Soul). The Chevy Bolt weighs ~3600 pounds so there is a delta but it isn’t 2 tons.

Camry vs Model S are closer to the same size (Camry is 5” shorter) but very different quality levels. Model S is closer to a BMW 5 series which weighs ~4000 pounds. Ends up with a similar 600 pound delta.

At the end of the day the difference between ICE and EV is meaningless compared to the 80,000 pound tractor trailers that are on our roads.

 

[amylevan]

At the end of the day the difference between ICE and EV is meaningless compared to the 80,000 pound tractor trailers that are on our roads.

Correct, for roads and bridges, cars are negligible. It’s tractor trailers that are the source of loading and damage.

However, parking garages are another issue altogether. The design load was actually reduced from 50psf to 40psf in recent years and there is now discussions that they will need to reverse, if not increase, design loads for parking garages due to EVs.

 

[tvguy]

Correct, for roads and bridges, cars are negligible. It’s tractor trailers that are the source of loading and damage.

However, parking garages are another issue altogether. The design load was actually reduced from 50psf to 40psf in recent years and there is now discussions that they will need to reverse, if not increase, design loads for parking garages due to EVs.

Well, I think those big rigs getting 7 mpg and driving 45,000 miles per year on average are paying a whole lot more in gas tax that my ICE car. And since in most places, EVs pay zero use tax and of course no fuel tax.

 

[kdonnel]

And since in most places, EVs pay zero use tax and of course no fuel tax.

33 states charge an EV specific tax at annual registration time. So actually in most places EVs do pay a tax to make up for no fuel tax.

Some states are also adding a “fuel” tax to be collected at public chargers. So in those states EV drivers who rely on public charging will be taxed twice.

 

[dvcgirl67]

33 states charge an EV specific tax at annual registration time. So actually in most places EVs do pay a tax to make up for no fuel tax.

Some states are also adding a “fuel” tax to be collected at public chargers. So in those states EV drivers who rely on public charging will be taxed twice.

New Jersey just passed a law for an annual EV tax "registration" fee....to make up for not paying fuel taxes. $250 a year, beginning on July 1st. It will go up $10 a year for four years until reaching $290.

 

[tvguy]

33 states charge an EV specific tax at annual registration time. So actually in most places EVs do pay a tax to make up for no fuel tax.

Some states are also adding a “fuel” tax to be collected at public chargers. So in those states EV drivers who rely on public charging will be taxed twice.

Only fair. And a bargain in California at $100 per year. I pay 77.9 cents per gallon tax here in California, or about $14 per tankful on my Flex with an 18 gallon tank. I don't drive much, so only use about 2 tanks a month, so I pay about $336 a year.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Only fair.

Agree...I drive an EV, and it's fair. It's weird though in some ways.....we're buying a Tesla Y near the end of this year and will get the $7,500 federal credit. And NJ charges no sales tax on the purchase. Not a small amount....nearly $3,000. And then just today I heard about the $250 registration fee.

Glad to be grabbing the big tax credit and tax free Tesla though....these great deals are going to end.

 

[tony67]

Had a question from a different view - that is the rudeness of some people regarding EV chargers.

I hear about people unplugging others cars so they can charge theirs - that's bad enough - but I've also seen videos of people unplugging peoples cars from in front of their homes (a condo for example or row houses in the UK etc..) so they can charge their vehicle and being like - well I needed to charge my car. It's like these people seem to think electricity is free - its not for the most part - even if you have solar if you use more than you make its not free.

I'm sort of surprised that is not more locked down.
I know that if I installed a charger Id probable have it on a switch to turn it on and off.
I guess if someone just disconnects it and connects it to there car when you are charging a switch will not help.

As I said before - I'm not ready to go electric - and its not ready for me - but I've thought about it.