ECV questions...

[MisMikiNikiLynne]

I would like to open up a discussion about ECV's.
Is there misuse of an ECV when it is not medically necessary, only used by a person to get them to bypass the lines?
What about pregnant women who don't necessarily need them?
*I ask this as when we were at MK in 9/07, a pregnant woman in a ECV turned around while we were in line and made the statement to me "sure beats standing in that line!" while pointing to the long line at "It's a small world". I was saddened at her comment while I stood in line with my daughter who is in a w/c due to severe CP. This same person refused to transfer to a boat because it was such a hastle emptying all of their bags from the ECV. sad ... This made several others have to wait longer for another accessable boat, when she quite possibly could have transfered to a regular boat or to a seat on the accessable boat.
What about people who do need an ECV, how does the misuse by those who don't need them affect this person?
Please don't slam me or anyone else for their opinion, I am just wondering how others feel about this...

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Not flaming you, but surely if you've traveled with a wheelchair user, you know that there are very few rides where wheelchair users go straight through a different entrance, and that most of the time, you still have to wait for quite a while there, anyway. Being on wheels isn't really a perk, and it gets you very few advantages. What it does get you, is ignored, stepped on, barged, hit in the head, cut up and a view of people's backsides (not too much fun, that last one ). I think if there is anyone out there using a wheelchair or ECV just to 'cheat the system', they'll very quickly realise how stupid they've been.

Yes, there may be some people who use an ECV because they're 'lazy', but no one really knows who has an invisible medical condition. The woman in front of you may have been having a really tough time of it, but was making a joke to lighten her spirits (I do this kind of thing all the time, but I have to use a wheelchair any time I leave the house). Again, not flaming, just saying that you don't always know what's going on. It's a shame she didn't transfer if she could, but maybe she would honestly have had trouble stepping down into the boat.

Unfortunately, this kind of discussion comes up a lot on other boards on this forum, and they don't end in a very friendly manner, normally . A lot of Temporarily Able Bodied people believe that wheelchairs go to the front of every queue, and that anyone who can stand at all (such as myself), must be faking it. This is why I've gone into detail on the whys and wherefors above, not because I think you believe these things, but because there are other people reading these boards who might.

Basically, my view is, the vast majority of ECV users are doing so for valid reasons. There may be one or two 'bad apples' who are just using them to get some imagined perk, but as I can't tell who they are, I don't bother worrying about it. Don't let a few idiots make you suspicious of everyone and ruin your holiday. Instead, just smile and enjoy the magic!

 

[minnie61650]

I agree with OneLittleSpark.

If someone is using a EVC at Disney just because they are lazy I think they would find out after the first day the EVC's are very inconvenient especially at Disney.

Those of us using an EVC seem to become "invisible" since able bodied guests are crossing in front of us, stopping in front of us and never seem to see us until it is time for us to load onto a bus. When we are loading onto a bus that is when we become very visible.
It is very hard to drive an EVC in the crowds in the parks.
It is not easy backing up an EVC onto the bus lift and maneuvering the EVC into the tie down is very difficult. I highly doubt "lazy" people would submit themselves to that for long.

Also EVC rental is quite expensive. My EVC cost over $200 to rent for one week. Most "lazy"people would rather spend the money on other things.
The EVC's that are loaded onto the buses are either privately owned or are rented from an offsite company.
I doubt that "lazy" people would think ahead enough to preorder an EVC from an offsite company.


Sure there may be a few people who use EVC's because they are lazy but I am betting they learn quickly it not easy or fun to use an EVC at WDW.
I know I wish I did not need to use one but without an EVC WDW would be inaccessible to me.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[KPeveler]

I use a wheelchair but not an ECV at disney, but all of my problems are invisible... and when I am pregnant I will have to use an ECV or powerchair pretty much full time due to my illness (i literally wont be able to support the weight of my own pregnancy). i can stand and look like i can walk fine, but need the chair to enjoy disney

it was not tactful for her to say "beats waiting in line" but surely you have realized travelling with a wheelchair yourself that you do not get to skip lines... in fact, you end up waiting more.... yes, I am sure people use an ECV who don't "need" it, but since I cannot determine "need" based on looking, and since "need" is a relative term, i choose not to let it bother me, and I try not to guess who needs it...

not flaming, but it is so hard to play "guess the disability" that i find it easier just to give people the benefit of hte doubt...

oh, and what you said about being unwilling/unable to unload the bags - i cannot carry anything heavy, but due to my illness must carry things with me, so it could well be due to her pregnancy she may not be allowed to pick up anything, and so have to carry her bags on her scooter... that may not be the case, but just food for thought

edit: i actually enjoy debating invisible illness/disability with people, so if you want to debate, and this thread does not go in a positive direction, PM me!

 

[MisMikiNikiLynne]

I do not want this thread to end up a negative one, that is not why I asked the question. I do know that there are many, many invisible disabilities as I have a grandaughter who has a TBI and shows virtually no signs until she is tired and then begins to drag her right side and stumbles easily.
I usually just smile when comments are said to me as it is usually not worth the effort to respond. I do know that using the wheelchair in the parks we usually spend most time waiting and the view is horrible. Two years ago while waiting for rope drop at toon town, a man and his child stepped over my daughter and her w/c to get in front of us. In the process she received a horrible cut on her shin. WDW was very good to dd, a CM saw the entire incident but the man never batted an eyelash, he was determined to be first...

 

[OneLittleSpark]

We know you understand what it's like, how can you not, having been to Disney (or anywhere, for that matter) with a loved one who uses a wheelchair? It's just we have to be very careful about such subjects on this board, partly because it's obviously a sensitive issue, but mainly, because there are idiots out there who think we're getting a great treat, and that half of us are faking. No one here wants to have a go at you, and I quite understand why you started this thread; it's upsetting to think that some people might fake a disability for any reason, especially if it makes it harder for those with legitimate problems to get the help and respect they need. Unfortunately though, we can't tell who is and who isn't.

I'm so, so sorry you had that horrible experience, in Disney of all places; it's people like that that make my blood boil. I hope it didn't ruin you're holiday for you, and that the good memories out-weigh and obscure that bad one.

However, I do truly believe that for every one jerk like him, there are at least ten good, decent, caring people out there, who will go out of their way to help someone - not because they are in a wheelchair, but because they are another human being, and we could all use a hand sometimes. I know it can be hard at times, but try to hold on to the positives, they'll make the world shine a lot more than the bad stuff will.

 

[SueM in MN]

I think there may be a few people who rent wheelchairs or ECVs because they think they will get some advantage.
I don't think there are that many people who get one to 'cheat' for the reasons that the other posters mentioned:
- ECVs are expensive.
- Driving one (or a wheelchair) around is a pain.
- the main 'advantage' someone gets with using one is a seat while waiting in line.

I know that there are a lot of people who think a lot of people use wheelchairs and/or ECVs to 'get perks,' because every time the subject comes up, people post how they can 'tell' someone did not really need a wheelchair/ECV because they saw that person get up out of it and walk to get on a ride. Many times someone will say they know that person/family was 'cheating' because they saw they child run at some point or because there were different people riding in the wheelchair.

In those threads, I often post about 2 situations I know of first hand:

• [1]A family with 2 boys who were about 6 and 8 then they first visited WDW quite a few years ago. The family rented a wheelchair. Sometimes, the parents pushed an empty wheelchair while the 2 boys walked (or even ran). Sometimes the younger boy rode in the wheelchair while the older boy walked. Occasionally, the older boy rode in the wheelchair. Some people would say a situation like that was a 'clear case' of using a wheelchair to get some advantage.
  [2]A family with 2 little girls. Sometimes the younger girl was riding in the wheelchair. Sometimes, the older girl was in the wheelchair, while the parents carried the younger girl. Sometime the older girl could be seen running. Some people would say a situation like that was a clear case of using a wheelchair to get some advantage.

People will post situations like both of those examples as 'evidence' of 'cheating' and say that they know those people didn't really need the wheelchair.

But, looking at the things that can't be seen;
Situation #1 was a friend of mine. Her oldest son had a congenital heart defect that could not be repaired. The parents had been told to consider every day a gift because he was not expected to live into his teens. They rented a wheelchair for him, but he mostly refused to use it, unless he was to the point of almost dropping. Just after his 18th birthday, his mom found that he had died in his sleep.

Situation #2 is my own family. My oldest DD has no disabilities, but she was only 5 the first time we went to WDW with her sister's wheelchair. When she was tired, she sometimes rode in her sister's wheelchair, while we carried our youngest DD for a change of position.

When I give those facts on the threads complaining about ECV and wheelchair users, people will write 'of course, I don't mean people like you are talking about who are truly disabled. I'm talking about the people who are faking.
One of the things we have seen over the years is that many people feel they are 'justified' in judging who is disabled and who is not. Most of those threads don't go over 4-5 pages now, but in the past, they went on for many pages and there would usually be a person or 2 who wrote that they had been one of the big complainers about wheelchairs/ECVs until they had to use one themselves, could see how difficult it was and how little 'special treatment' you actually get.

We've had people make some hateful comments to use; mostly because people who have never used a wheelchair assume that there is all sorts of special treatment. Even though there are some jerks out there, I have to agree with this:

However, I do truly believe that for every one jerk like him, there are at least ten good, decent, caring people out there, who will go out of their way to help someone - not because they are in a wheelchair, but because they are another human being, and we could all use a hand sometimes. I know it can be hard at times, but try to hold on to the positives, they'll make the world shine a lot more than the bad stuff will.

 

[toocherie]

I would just like to emphasize the "you can't always tell" comments. Example: I went to Disneyland Friday night and Saturday until about noon. I decided not to rent an ECV and walk because I was on my own and could set my own pace, take frequent breaks, etc.--big mistake. I have two replaced knees, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia and some back issues. I did fine until about noon on Saturday and then got the worst headache and backache--Saturday night and Sunday were agony. I am still feeling badly today. I have found that I can do one day in the park, but more than that and my body just can't take it. Oftentimes my knees will feel like they are ballooned up. So if I am going multiple days I will likely be renting an ECV. Or when I go to WDW in November maybe I will have to alternate days in the parks.

In the past I have felt self-conscious about using one because I can walk . . . and can park the ECV and even stand in line. I'm sure there are people who think I am "faking" but I am not--I know what will await me if I do not utilize an ECV.

 

[jewelmicky]

First let me start by saying...there is NO WAY my dad or FIL could have done this last trip without an ECV. At first they both refused to use one...but i rented them from an off site company anyway, so they were they when we arrived at the Poly. The ECV's were definitely worth the cost...niether one of them would have made it from the Monorail station into the park at Epcot without one.

I do have an observation...it has been 5 years or so since out last visit and the use of ECV's has increased a trememdous amount. Some of the people using these really are dangerous....many near misses and one big bruise to prove it.

My other observation....great at Epcot and HS, crappy at MK with ECV. We had to wait for 3 busses after Fantasmic because they could only take 2 at a time. There was one woman how cut in line in front of us and insisted on taking up one of the handicap spots for her sons stroller! Needless to say I was livid.

There was ALOT of line cutting and people shoving this trip...there must be some sort of Mickey psychosis that kicks in or something where people totally forget thier manners.

 

[ireland_nicole]

I agree w/ everyone. I just wanted to add that it is possible that this woman was on Dr's orders not to stand and walk, or carry objects, or had a complication that caused severe pain when she did. Perhaps when she said her comment, she was commenting on sitting rather than standing... I had extreme complications w/ my pregancies and was on modified bed rest at 8 wks and total bedrest by 14. So, ya never know. On the other hand, maybe she was just narcissistic and selfish and one of those people who make you want to believe in Karma.

On the stroller comment, although I never cut in line, I was told more than once by bus drivers on our last trip when they saw the stroller as w/c tag that we should use the w/c space, esp. when DS was sleeping. That being said, we chose not to, but this family may have been told the same thing. That, of course, does not excuse her rudeness for cutting the queue.

 

[Alex&Evan'sMom]

My mom rented an ECV on our last trip. We were there for 7 days and since she is older she wanted to be able to enjoy as much of the vacation as possible. On our last trip she had to sit out the last two days in the hotel room so this seemed like a good solution. However she never used the handicapped boarding. She would park the ECV and wait in line with everyone else. Some people may have thought she was abusing the use of ECV but for me I was just glad she was able to enjoy the trip with us the entire time as she loves her grandsons and family and wants to spend as much time with us as possible!

 

[toocherie]

My mom rented an ECV on our last trip. We were there for 7 days and since she is older she wanted to be able to enjoy as much of the vacation as possible. On our last trip she had to sit out the last two days in the hotel room so this seemed like a good solution. However she never used the handicapped boarding. She would park the ECV and wait in line with everyone else. Some people may have thought she was abusing the use of ECV but for me I was just glad she was able to enjoy the trip with us the entire time as she loves her grandsons and family and wants to spend as much time with us as possible!

I'm sorry--I know I am probably dense--but do you mean your Mom didn't use the boarding at the rides? (If so, I have done this too--) Just wasn't sure what you meant (you didn't mean she parked her ECV for the busses?)

 

[mamaloya]

Well, I was in a w/c this last trip and have to say that I only got a few rude looks. The looks I mainly got were looks of pity. I only had probs with a couple of CMs. One was at Winnie the Pooh. I did not know how w/c's were handled there so asked if I got in the regular queue or had to enter elsewhere. The CM replied "You have to get in the line like everyone else." She said it in such a way like I was trying to cut. I just wanted to know because earlier in the day we saw the line at the carousel and got in as we did not see any w/c sign. The CM came up and opened a gate and told us to wait there. She had me park my chair to the side and then stand, which turned out to be longer than I should have been on my feet. When she loaded us on the ride she said, "Next time you need to use the w/c entrance" like we did something wrong. All she needed to say when she first saw me was "the w/c entrance is over there". I would have been glad to move.

I only mention this because these comments lead me to believe that there are CMs who believe the privilege is abused. Or maybe the CM at Winnie the Pooh has been fussed at by "indignent" people who think they should not have to wait in the regular line. Not sure. I frankly don't mind waiting in the line, as long as I am seated.

I would say that about 90% of the rides had me wait in the regular line. The ones that had me in a special line, I could see the CMs counting boats or such to make sure I waited an amount of time in accordance with the amt of time the others had to wait. Some waiting in the w/c queue with me complained, but I had no problem with it. I found it only fair that I should have to wait as well. I also saw some initial eyerolling when I was escorting directly to the loading/unloading area ahead of everyone and then the looks of relief when I was not loaded right away but told to wait. It was like they were shocked and glad that I did not cut in front of them.

I was quite frustrated at being in a chair. I also think that anyone using one to "get ahead" would quickly change their mind. Any perceived advantage in lines is sorely outweighed by the time it takes to get from point A to point B as well as maneuvering through crowds. If you are mobile, you can leave one ride and run either to get back on or to the next one. I, however, had to wait for my chair and then can only move so fast. ds16 tried to push me running a couple of times and I swear it felt like my front wheels were going to fall off.

Also, loading and unloading from the busses takes much longer. I gave up on busses after the first day and drove to the parks after that.

Oh well, off my soapbox. Just wanted to note that, after this trip, I highly doubt that too many people are "faking". At least not for more than a couple of hours. The frustration level is way to high. If they are so lazy that they are willing to deal with the frustration, then they are truly disabled in my book.

 

[Dawn68PA]

Mamaloya ~ thank you so much for your report. I will need some type of chair/scooter on our next trip and your report really makes me feel prepared.

I think Sue has on this board somewhere a list of where to enter for each ride.....I have to look for that....I would like to know in advance and take a list to each park to help us all. Like you, I don't mind waiting either. What's fair is fair. I'm way too vocal for anyone to be rude to me. I have an excellent sense of humor peppered with sarcasm for taste. We also planned to drive to the parks. Less hassle I thought & you confirmed that.

I'm looking so forward to going back to the place I'm the happiest when on vacation. Though I'm a little worried about being "different" in the parks, I won't let it bother my fun. 8 days with my husband of 20 years, my kids and their friend. I can't wait!

 

[Alex&Evan'sMom]

I'm sorry--I know I am probably dense--but do you mean your Mom didn't use the boarding at the rides? (If so, I have done this too--) Just wasn't sure what you meant (you didn't mean she parked her ECV for the busses?)

Sorry! I didn't fully explain myself. She rented the ECV at the parks each day so we never had to board a bus with it. I was referring to the boarding at rides.

 

[SueM in MN]

I think Sue has on this board somewhere a list of where to enter for each ride.....I have to look for that....I would like to know in advance and take a list to each park to help us all.

There is a link to the WDW Guidebook for Guests with disABILITIES in the disABILITIES FAQs thread in post number 3. That has some very basic information about boarding. You can also get the Guidebooks in the parks.
There is also a link to a couple of past threads on that same post and links to some helpful websites.

 

[BroganMc]

*I ask this as when we were at MK in 9/07, a pregnant woman in a ECV turned around while we were in line and made the statement to me "sure beats standing in that line!" while pointing to the long line at "It's a small world". I was saddened at her comment while I stood in line with my daughter who is in a w/c due to severe CP. This same person refused to transfer to a boat because it was such a hastle emptying all of their bags from the ECV.

I have a slightly different take on the subject. As someone who has a very visible disability (rheumatoid arthritis since age 2 makes me look as if I can't do half the stuff I actually can), I've made the same flippant remark as the guest you described. Usually it is said in ways like "this powerchair of mine is the best ride in the park" or "it beats killing my feet all day". I say that as a joking icebreaker so folks stop giving me the evil or curious eye and take the mystery off me. (I'm not a circus attraction, ya know!)

But it also comes from the memory of my struggling to walk everywhere, enduring the pain and always looking down to avoid the trip hazards. Using my powerchair gave me freedom I never knew as a child or young adult. So for me, it is a fun ride and sure beats walking on these rickety crooked legs.

And though I can get up and walk 10 feet to a seat, I often will stay in my PWC because I don't want to risk it being damaged or all the junk taken off.

Perhaps, just perhaps, this lady's comments were innocuous attempts to lighten the awkwardness she felt.

The odd thing for we HA guests is that we can never really go by the posted Standby times on rides. They do not track what the wheelchair lines are like. And when you see "5 minutes" posted outside IASW but arrive at the wheelchair line to find 5 chairs ahead of you and only 2 boats working, you know the wait time is actually "20 minutes". Then frustration builds and it can be easy to start scrutinizing your fellow line waiters. I've had to mentally kick myself a few times at Kilamanjaro Safari ride for that reason. (At least at IASW you can peek to see how long the line is before you enter the queue. At the safari, you'll find out 10-20 minutes later that your wait time is doubled or tripled.)

Caveat: I am weird. When people jokingly say they wish they had my PWC, I don't take offense. For me, it is a miraculously invention and freedom giver. I've lived with arthritis so long that it is perfectly natural. NOT having JRA is abnormal to me.

 

[clkelley]

Hubby and myself probably look like we're faking with his ECV also. We have our own personal ECV that for most of it's life just sits in the the garage, except when we go to places where large amounts of walking are involved. (WDW, Opry Mills Mall, Braves games, etc.)

Hubby needs it most of the time for the distance aspect of WDW and uses it about 80% of the time. However, for most of the lines he parks it and walks the line. He actually needs a little bit of standing and walking time cause if he sits on the ECV all day, he's stiff. There are also times when he's walking and I'm riding, but like I said, he does need to walk some. When we are at shows where we can bring the ECV in, he usually sits on the bench and I sit on the ECV. For some reason benches without backs on them drive me crazy, but it doesn't bother my hubby, so he sits on the bench and I sit on the ECV with a back. So there is truly no way to judge if someone is "cheating". Also, it's not like these ECVs are provided for free and a prescriptions is not required to purchase or rent one. If somebody wants to spend their money to ride around on one, so be it.

 

[MonorailGuy]

The odd thing for we HA guests is that we can never really go by the posted Standby times on rides. They do not track what the wheelchair lines are like. And when you see "5 minutes" posted outside IASW but arrive at the wheelchair line to find 5 chairs ahead of you and only 2 boats working, you know the wait time is actually "20 minutes"...At the safari, you'll find out 10-20 minutes later that your wait time is doubled or tripled.)

That bugs the <insert very un-Disney word here> out of me, as someone who works the attraction. Yes, I understand the reason it is set up as it is, but I agree with you that there should be tracking of guests in wheelchairs. I would love it if we had a wheel chair fastpass system where, you get the pass, then at your appointed time you come back and go up that same ramp you exited. We have a finite number of wheelchairs we are going to be able to service in a single day anyway, and we should be able to plan it. In fact, thank you for the idea, I am going to bring it up to my managers tomorrow. The idea that you wait in line so you can wait in another line is crazy in my mind. Having worked that gate, I've had people yell at me because they thought that was the line they should use with a GAC, and I try to kindly inform them that it will be faster (by fifteen, twenty or more minutes) to take the normal line. Unfortunately, I can honestly say there is no tangible, feasible way to speed up the HA line on Safari.

However, I do truly believe that for every one jerk like him, there are at least ten good, decent, caring people out there...

I would say he's more like one in a hundred... That's just my personal opinion. And people like that jerk are getting less and less from me. I can't stand people who intentionally or negligently take away from the Disney experience of those around them. Turn off your cell phone while on my safari.

 

[Schmeck]

When you have soooo many people at WDW using ECVs, it's common to look at them all and think that there can't be sooo many people needing them. You don't see sooooo many people using them at home, right?

But think about how wonderfully accessible WDW is - for some people, it's the most freedom they have to get around and enjoy a place. Their hometown may not be accessible, their local parks may not be accessible. Lots of people pick WDW to vacation at because it is sooooo accessible!

Also, think of all the walking that people do at WDW. While someone may do a bit of walking at home, they may not be able to do the 2-3 miles (or much more) of walking at WDW. I know my mom and aunt can't. I just about killed them both taking them up a flight of stais at the Providence Place Mall last week...

So, I don't think very many people at WDW are renting wheelchairs or ECVs to 'cheat the system' at all. There are just a lot of people at WDW who need them to enjoy their vacation. I probably will need one in a few years.