ECV judgement

[AmyB2006]

Funny story to maybe lighten up the thread. We always drive to WDW because were FL residents but one particular night we let my parents use the car so they could go to AKL for dinner and my other half said we would take the monorail + bus route to make it to our ADR at Fly Fish. So we arrive at MK from the GF via the monorail. Walk over to the Boardwalk bus line and are the second group in line (we talked to this extremely nice older couple the whole wait, they had gotten engaged at WDW in 72' and we had just gotten engaged the prior night at V&A's). The bus finally pulls up after 25 minuets. An ECV party rolls up again no big deal every can still fit, just as the driver finishes loading the first, a second ECV group comes up, so per policy the driver loads that group. Ok now we finally get to board about 8 people board and next thing I know the driver is stopping the front line because ANOTHER ECV came up this filled the bus. Luckily us and the older couple made it on the bus, but after the 3rd ECV came up the bus was full.

Not saying what's right or wrong just reading your post reminded me of the story that we joke about whenever boarding a bus for an ADR from MK at night now.

Well that is exactly what I'm talking about!! LOL That particular situation, I think, is unfair. That third definitely, and possibly even the second, should have gotten on other buses, depending on how many people were in line.

 

[Disneylover99]

You're right it would suck for the ECV rider. But would you rather them load all 3 or 4 plus family members onto one bus if you were standing in line for 20 minutes?

I still say this option is more fair than separating a large party potentially onto 2 separate buses.

If I were still dealing with an ECV and my father, and we were that 3rd or 4th ECV, I would have no problem waiting if it was crowded.

I was wondering, what is the limit of ECV's per bus? I was thinking it was just two, but I must be wrong about this.

Anyways....if the ECV's are waiting when the bus pulls up, I say load them on, but again limit the number of people that get on the bus with them. If that ECV rider decided to come by car, and they were a party of 10, they'd be in at least two separate cars anyways. What's the difference of being on two separate buses?

 

[AmyB2006]

If you are the 3rd or 4th ECV, you are probably waiting anyway--even if the bus is empty. A lot of the busses can only take 2 wheelchairs or ECVs. Some can handle 3. None of them, afaik, can take 4.

True. But this has to come down to bus driver discretion sometime, guided by Disney Rules.

If it's the end of the night and you have a full bus line of people and you have a few ECVs in your line, you have to assess the situation.

If your first ECV has a party of 10, and your 2nd ECV only has a party of 4... I can see loading those two and their parties. If that 2nd ECV has a party of 10 or more, and you have a giant line of people standing there, then maybe only that 1st ECV and their 10 gets on, and then you load the regular line.

There has to be common sense and discretion exercised here. I've even told a bus driver that we would wait for the next bus being that 2nd ECV as everyone is staring at us with their death ray Superman eyes from the regular line, and he was like, No, I have to board you.

 

[AmyB2006]

I was wondering, what is the limit of ECV's per bus? I was thinking it was just two, but I must be wrong about this.

Anyways....if the ECV's are waiting when the bus pulls up, I say load them on, but again limit the number of people that get on the bus with them. If that ECV rider decided to come by car, and they were a party of 10, they'd be in at least two separate cars anyways. What's the difference of being on two separate buses?

Um, maybe because two separate vehicles can still travel together and arrive at their destination at the same time???

The limit is usually 2 ECVs, some can accommodate 3 I think.

I still say you shouldn't split the ECV party up. That just doesn't seem right to me. Unless the driver knows for a fact that the rest of the party will fit on the same bus.

 

[Disneylover99]

Um, maybe because two separate vehicles can still travel together and arrive at their destination at the same time???

Or not.....think traffic lights, speed, etc.........Look, we can get all nitpicky about this, but I am curious. Do you find no limits for travelling companions acceptable for the sake of keeping families together? So do you think a party of ten, fifteen or even more people should be allowed to board with an ECV rider?

 

[AmyB2006]

Or not.....think traffic lights, speed, etc.........Look, we can get all nitpicky about this, but I am curious. Do you find no limits for travelling companions acceptable for the sake of keeping families together? So do you think a party of ten, fifteen or even more people should be allowed to board with an ECV rider?

It's not nitpicky, it's a discussion. LOL You're going to tell me you think separating a party that could easily be 20 minutes apart or more, is the same as travelling in two separate cars where at most you'd be 5 minutes apart because you missed a traffic light? Disney property isn't that big that speed and traffic will have that much affect on two vehicles travelling together.

We can "what if" all day with your extreme circumstances, if you want. LOL But it's not very productive.

I'm talking about the average party that walks up to a bus with an ECV rider. In my experience it's usually about 6 people sometimes more. But let's assume for this discussion, a max of 10 people. Yes, I think those 10 people should be allowed onto the bus with their ECV rider. However, if a 2nd ECV pulls up, I think that party should have to wait for the next bus.

And again, this is all dependent on how crowded it is. If they're the only ones in line, then of course they shouldn't have to wait.

It's common sense and discretion on behalf of the bus driver.

 

[mackay_j]

A few years ago I was diagnosed with Breast Cancer. I was in my mid 40's and in pretty good shape at the time since I worked out daily. I had finished surgery, and chemo and was in the middle of radiation when I had the following experience. The cancer hospital had parking spots for patients going through treatment right up front. I had to drive daily 1 hour for my radiation. Some days dh took me , other days I had to drive myself which was tiring but it had to be done. I was wearing a pretty good wig and had the roof down on my car. I guess I looked like I didn't have a care in the world. I pulled up and parked and the car behind me pulled up and blocked me in and the male driver started screaming at me about taking up a patients spot. When I told him I was a patient he proceeded to call BS until I pulled off my wig and embarrassed the s--- out of him.
It goes back to the old adage my mom taught me of not judging a book....
Why should you hurt yourself/be in pain because of anyone else. To h--- with what anyone else thinks . Do what is best for you !

I hate to say but this as it makes me cringe- As I was once this man - I learned my lesson BIG time.

I was a young stressed out mum with 2 children under 4 and due to an emergency situation with a friend I had to look after her 2 children that day- 5 yrs and 3 months. So I had 4 kids under 5 (2 under 4 months) with me when I pulled into a supermarket car park and went to go into a family parking space. However a convertible sports car pulled in ahead of me - Driven by a model looking blond 20yr ish old - make up perfect- on her own in the car -yip you got the picture- Well I saw red rag to a bull and stormed out of my car screaming at her for taking the parent spaces with no kids - Then---- her door opened and she apologized and offered to move on ----- but explained that all the disabled spaces were gone ---- At that point I could see she had no legs!

I wished the ground could swallow me up - I was so embarrassed and felt soooo bad for my actions.


Moral - never judge a book by its cover- people do what need too - it's not for us to judge.


Go and enjoy disney - do what you need to do.

And to those in the fortunate position to be able to judge remember my mistake - you never really see the whole picture!!

 

[olwyngdh]

Or not.....think traffic lights, speed, etc.........Look, we can get all nitpicky about this, but I am curious. Do you find no limits for travelling companions acceptable for the sake of keeping families together? So do you think a party of ten, fifteen or even more people should be allowed to board with an ECV rider?

Do you think a party of ten, fifteen or even more people should be allowed to board together without an ECV user? Remember, equal, not better.

 

[maxiesmom]

In all honesty it doesn't matter what any of us think the rules should be. They are what they are, and being rude or angry at another guest when they are following the rules is just plain wrong. You can be angry at the situation without being angry at the person in that situation.

 

[Toffeewoffy]

I love the way this has turned into an argument about the merits or not of ECVs and their large entourage!

We stayed at CBR in February and the first 4 days it was really quiet. We never once arrived at the bus stop just in time to catch the bus we wanted. We saw buses to every other park or DTD come or even the resort shuttle. I don't think we once waited less than 15 minutes for the right bus for us.

Only once was the bus stop full, and as I took my spot in the white rectangle I wasn't too bothered as Martinique is the first stop and I knew the bus would come in empty. As it was just me and DD, we were hardly taking up all the room.

Anyway, the bus to MK arrived - in front of two others, all of which pulled into our stop. While the driver started fiddling with the door and ramp and people were queued up at the front door, I called out to them, "You know, you'd probably be best getting the MK bus just behind this one as this could take a while!" Every single person got on the bus behind, and by the time DD and I were in and installed, we were the only people on that bus! Thinking back, I like the way not ONE of those people acknowledged my recommendation or said thanks!

I can only assume that when the resorts get busier they lay on more buses.

Next year we're intending to use the car more - apart from MK where the bus at least takes you round the lake to the entrance.

Incidentally, what happens if an ECV rocks up once they're already loading foot passengers? Will they make you wait until they've loaded everyone and then load the ECV or, if the bus looks fairly full, will they say sorry too many people on now so you'll have to wait until the next one, even if there is clearly room for the ECV and there small entourage?

 

[Disneylover99]

Do you think a party of ten, fifteen or even more people should be allowed to board together without an ECV user? Remember, equal, not better.

If they are in line, sure, if there is room on the bus, it's a non-issue.

If a party of ten wants to get on the bus, but the driver stops them at five and says there is no more room, then a decision has to be made. Do you go without your party? or do those five people get off the bus and let the next five people on? It's up to the party I guess..... And the likelihood of getting separated increases if your party is large and the crowds are high.

I'm not sure I understand when you say, "equal, not better" though.

 

[Disneylover99]

I love the way this has turned into an argument about the merits or not of ECVs and their large entourage!

So true. And I am guilty of this.....

OP....take your ECV and enjoy your vacation! I will not be judging you. I will just be judging your HUGE entourage getting on the bus with you.

 

[olwyngdh]

Incidentally, what happens if an ECV rocks up once they're already loading foot passengers? Will they make you wait until they've loaded everyone and then load the ECV or, if the bus looks fairly full, will they say sorry too many people on now so you'll have to wait until the next one, even if there is clearly room for the ECV and there small entourage?

If they are already loading the bus, the ECV has to wait for the next one, even if there would be room on the bus for the ECV. Disney considers it a safety issue.

 

[olwyngdh]

If they are in line, sure, if there is room on the bus, it's a non-issue.

If a party of ten wants to get on the bus, but the driver stops them at five and says there is no more room, then a decision has to be made. Do you go without your party? or do those five people get off the bus and let the next five people on? It's up to the party I guess..... And the likelihood of getting separated increases if your party is large and the crowds are high.

I'm not sure I understand when you say, "equal, not better" though.

So your point is that groups who don't have an ECV have better, not equal rights, than those groups that have a person on an ECV. They have a choice on whether or not they are separated, separation isn't mandated for them, as it is for those who use mobility devices. People keep saying that ECV groups shouldn't have better rights/access than those who don't, and your point appears to say that they shouldn't even have equal rights to access. I have not argued that they should eliminate the rule that only so many can board with the ECV, but I am saying that it is a rule that does not apply to the able bodied, thereby making it that the ECV user does not have better, or even equal treatment. Am I bummed that I will be forced to be separated from part of my party on my next trip? Yes. Am I going to deal with it because that is the rule? Yes. But I am not going to put up with people telling me I have preferential treatment when they are not forced by the rules to separate from their party.

(the equal, not better statement has come up a few times in this discussion)

 

[Disneylover99]

So your point is that groups who don't have an ECV have better, not equal rights, than those groups that have a person on an ECV. They have a choice on whether or not they are separated, separation isn't mandated for them, as it is for those who use mobility devices. People keep saying that ECV groups shouldn't have better rights/access than those who don't, and your point appears to say that they shouldn't even have equal rights to access. I have not argued that they should eliminate the rule that only so many can board with the ECV, but I am saying that it is a rule that does not apply to the able bodied, thereby making it that the ECV user does not have better, or even equal treatment. Am I bummed that I will be forced to be separated from part of my party on my next trip? Yes. Am I going to deal with it because that is the rule? Yes. But I am not going to put up with people telling me I have preferential treatment when they are not forced by the rules to separate from their party.

(the equal, not better statement has come up a few times in this discussion)

I have no problem with ECV users. I have no problem with the rule of six people in total getting on to ride a bus and I have no problem with ECV users who pull up at the last minute getting on a bus while others have waited in line for 20+ minutes or more.....(which is more than fair to ECV users IMO and not exactly fair to people who have been waiting). But at some point, lines have to be drawn. One time, I witnessed a total of 20 people get on the bus with an ECV user. If Disney put in a rule of 6, then why won't they enforce it? What if you are a tour group running up at the last minute with someone in an ECV? I've never seen that happen, but who knows? If the drivers aren't enforcing the rules, it could happen.

 

[siskaren]

But at some point, lines have to be drawn. One time, I witnessed a total of 20 people get on the bus with an ECV user. If Disney put in a rule of 6, then why won't they enforce it? What if you are a tour group running up at the last minute with someone in an ECV? I've never seen that happen, but who knows? If the drivers aren't enforcing the rules, it could happen.

Unless I'm wrong though, the issue isn't 6 or 10 or 20 people getting on the same bus as the ECV user, it's whether or not they should all be allowed to pre-board with the ECV user. And even without an ECV user, a large group may not all be able to get on the same bus, depending on how many people were in line ahead of them.

 

[Disneylover99]

Unless I'm wrong though, the issue isn't 6 or 10 or 20 people getting on the same bus as the ECV user, it's whether or not they should all be allowed to pre-board with the ECV user. And even without an ECV user, a large group may not all be able to get on the same bus, depending on how many people were in line ahead of them.

The issue I've been discussing has been weather or not ECV users should be allowed to pre-board with family and friends no matter how many people that may include. Some people believe that it's only fair since passengers who line up have the opportunity to ride with everyone in their party.

 

[SteveMouse]

The issue I've been discussing has been weather or not ECV users should be allowed to pre-board with family and friends no matter how many people that may include. Some people believe that it's only fair since passengers who line up have the opportunity to ride with everyone in their party.

Part of the problem is looking at it from an individual bus vs. systems perspective and what works on average. I can't tell you the number of times I've had to wait an extra cycle or two because of the limited number of spaces on a bus for an ECV or when I pull up to a bus that is in the PROCESS of loading, with plenty of space to accommodate both the ambulatory and nonambulatory only to be told "sorry, wait for the next bus." someone else comes running up after I arrive- they're allowed to board. That's not equal.

I think Disney's hope is that it averages out in the end (I'm not so sure that it does, especially on the individual level).

 

[olwyngdh]

I have no problem with ECV users. I have no problem with the rule of six people in total getting on to ride a bus and I have no problem with ECV users who pull up at the last minute getting on a bus while others have waited in line for 20+ minutes or more.....(which is more than fair to ECV users IMO and not exactly fair to people who have been waiting). But at some point, lines have to be drawn. One time, I witnessed a total of 20 people get on the bus with an ECV user. If Disney put in a rule of 6, then why won't they enforce it? What if you are a tour group running up at the last minute with someone in an ECV? I've never seen that happen, but who knows? If the drivers aren't enforcing the rules, it could happen.

I have seen the rule enforced on both the busses and the rides. There are likely drivers who don't enforce the # rules, just like there are drivers who don't enforce the you can't stay on the ECV rule. The problem is that this perception is applied to every ECV user, especially those who don't "look" sick and the verbal abuse of the ECV user and their families is common. The snide remarks and dirty looks are rampant. Thank God Disney doesn't treat us like second class citizens (for the most part) because the other guests do and I am sure that many aren't even aware that they are doing it--they are so convinced that people on ECVs are gaming the system for perceived privileges that they feel that the verbal and emotional abuse directed at the ECV user is justified.

When the lines are mainstreamed, ECV users use them. They wait just as long, and often longer, than the able bodied, but still face ridicule and abuse because they are loaded before the people around them in line.

My point is that to have equal, not better, access on both sides means that if the ECV party can't board with their entire family, neither can able bodied families. That isn't going to happen, nor do I expect it to, but at the same time, it is not unfair to allow the person in the ECV to travel with their family when the able bodied are allowed to travel with theirs--or make the *choice* not to. ECV users are not given the choice. If there were a way to board the ECV or wheelchair safely when the bus is partially loaded, it would be a different situation, but there really isn't. Not only do the seats need to be raised to park the vehicle, but there has to be maneuver room to pull it forward and then back it into the space, and to lock it down. Disney has decided that it can't be accomplished with people already on the bus, and I can't say I disagree. People would get hurt, no matter how skilled or careful the driver of the ECV was.

I think part of the issue is that you can see how many people are in the group with the ECV, but you can't with the people standing in the lines, so it is thought that ECV users travel in huge groups so they can have the advantage of getting on first. We have even had people try to tell CMs for rides that they were with us so they could get in the accessible entrance. I told the CM that no, they weren't with us, but I should have let them come along. They went through the line and got on the ride before we did.

 

[Disneylover99]

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to wait an extra cycle or two because of the limited number of spaces on a bus for an ECV or when I pull up to a bus that is in the PROCESS of loading, with plenty of space to accommodate both the ambulatory and nonambulatory only to be told "sorry, wait for the next bus." someone else comes running up after I arrive- they're allowed to board. That's not equal.

I've seen that happen a lot. That's why I think it would be a bad idea to only allow one ECV on per bus and allow unlimited family and friends. Get as many ECV's on as possible I say.