Echalon Under the Clinton Administration.

I too don't buy into the "terrorists in your teapot" conspiracy theories, half because of common sense and half due to the IRA, probably the most organised (ex) terror network the world has ever seen.



Rich::
 
Tigger_Magic said:
But I have no problem spying on any U.S. citizen anywhere who may be involved with terrorists.

That's the crux. If you give government organizations the ability to spy on U.S. citizens, how do you keep it only to those who are involved with terrorists?
 
crcormier said:
That's the crux. If you give government organizations the ability to spy on U.S. citizens, how do you keep it only to those who are involved with terrorists?

Indeed.



Rich::
 
Tigger_Magic said:
So was 9/11/2001 just a myth? The people that perpetrated that tragedy lived here for years, rejecting the influences of America. This idea is very plausible.

I will agree that not protecting our borders increases the threat. But I have no problem spying on any U.S. citizen anywhere who may be involved with terrorists.

They were here for a couple years, and what they were doing in the months leading up to 9-11 was extremely obvious, if anyone had cared to notice, and they were not U.S. citizens. Most were Saudi's.

The problem with not getting a court order for the spying, is that the administration could spy on anyone for any reason, not just would-be terrorists. You might trust government to be just in deciding who to watch, but you would be silly to do so, IMO.
 

dcentity2000 said:
I too don't buy into the "terrorists in your teapot" conspiracy theories, half because of common sense and half due to the IRA, probably the most organised (ex) terror network the world has ever seen.
Rich::

I'm not a cospiracy theorist, but I'm merely pointing out that the possibility does exist.
 
crcormier said:
That's the crux. If you give government organizations the ability to spy on U.S. citizens, how do you keep it only to those who are involved with terrorists?
As long as we have to suffer the likes of Harry Reid, Barbara Boxer, and Charles Schumer, I have little fear of gov't. organizations getting out of control.
 
CapeCodTenor said:
Can you say that with 100% certainty

Common sense tells me 100%, that this just doesn't happen. You can live your life in fear of what lurks around the corner. I choose freedom.
 
momof2inPA said:
Common sense tells me 100%, that this just doesn't happen. You can live your life in fear of what lurks around the corner. I choose freedom.
To re-state what Tigger Magic said...
The people that perpetrated that tragedy lived here for years, rejecting the influences of America. This idea is very plausible.
They did live here, for how long? I can't answer that, but they did live here and they did commit the act for which they have been accused of.
 
crcormier said:
That's the crux. If you give government organizations the ability to spy on U.S. citizens, how do you keep it only to those who are involved with terrorists?
By requiring probable cause, as confirmed by a neutral magistrtae. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best we have come up with, and it's the one that has been ignored.
 
momof2inPA said:
Common sense tells me 100%, that this just doesn't happen. You can live your life in fear of what lurks around the corner. I choose freedom.
I don't believe it has to be an "either/or" condition. One can choose freedom combined with diligent awareness.
 
CapeCodTenor said:
I'm not a cospiracy theorist, but I'm merely pointing out that the possibility does exist.

I can't argue with that - the possibility certainly exists. I just consider that possibility [that Al Queda is as organised as some would fantasise] to be an extreme on the probability curve, bang opposite the notion that Al Queda is a two man band with no ability to terrorise whatsoever :)



Rich::
 
dcentity2000 said:


I can't argue with that - the possibility certainly exists. I just consider that possibility [that Al Queda is as organised as some would fantasise] to be an extreme on the probability curve, bang opposite the notion that Al Queda is a two man band with no ability to terrorise whatsoever :)



Rich::
True, it might be extreme on the probability curve, but one could argue that people who grew up in your country blew themselves up on the Metro/Tube...sorry, I'm not sure what guys refer to it as.
 
CapeCodTenor said:
True, it might be extreme on the probability curve, but one could argue that people who grew up in your country blew themselves up on the Metro/Tube...sorry, I'm not sure what guys refer to it as.

Suicide bombers? Oh yah, I have no problem believing that. It's like a not-so-bad IRA scenario. Why not so bad? Well, with the IRA the bombers walked away from the explosions to kill again another day...



Rich::
 
Tigger_Magic said:
Or so one side's talking points would have everyone believe.
Are you suggesting that President Bush is claiming that he indeed sought judicial review? He is not making that claim. He is saying he did not have to. Beware of responding formulaicly.

The issue was how do you ensure that the surveillance power is only used on terrorists.? The answer to that, traditionally, is requiring a showing of prbable cause, conformed by a neutral magistrrate. Pres. Bush has said he is not limited by that standard.

So, contrary to your pithy attack, it is not "one sides' talking points" that suggest that step has been ignored - that point is admitted and conceded. The debate is as to whether it was necessary.

The facts are not really in dispute - the law is.
 
dcentity2000 said:


Suicide bombers? Oh yah, I have no problem believing that. It's like a not-so-bad IRA scenario. Why not so bad? Well, with the IRA the bombers walked away from the explosions to kill again another day...



Rich::
Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't that the same thing?

ETA: They both bomb, one just happens to walk away.
 
CapeCodTenor said:
Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't that the same thing?

Nah, a suicide bomber kills themselves in the execution of their deed. The IRA tended to shove bombs all over the place but avoid the blasts.

[EDIT] Implying that suicide bombers are better since they cannot by definition re-offend.



Rich::
 
sodaseller said:
Beware of responding formulaicly.
You might consider meditating on the advice you so freely bestow on others.
So, contrary to your pithy attack, it is not "one sides' talking points" that suggest that step has been ignored - that point is admitted and conceded. The debate is as to whether it was necessary.
:rotfl2: "Pithy attack" ... oh phuleeze... quit being so melodramatic. As for what's been admitted and conceded, I quote: "Beware of responding formulaically."
The facts are not really in dispute - the law is.
Again, thanks for sharing your side's talking points and for keeping them so pithy, too!
 
So by using this program and other spying techniques, the gov't has prevented attacks in this country (i.e. Brooklyn Bridge plot as just one example) and if this program and others like it were in place could have possibly prevented 9/11 (i.e. Zacarias Moussaoui's computer). You are against the prevention of these attacks because someone who wanted to blow up Americans' civil liberties was violated? I don't quite understand the priorities here. And it's not one or the other. You don't have security or civil liberites. But if you're not talking to al-Qaeda, you don't have your phone's systematically wiretapped. Denying that the problem of terrorism exists and the potential scope of the problem is many's primary problem. Seems to me people who believe this were the first ones to blame Bush for 9/11 and will be the first ones who blame him for a potential future attack. Don't you understand that he's trying (as any other president would hopefully be trying to do) to prevent another attack. And by using this and other programs (like the Patriot Act, which is being conveniently blocked by the Democrats), the gov't has done a pretty darn good job. Remember they have to be right 100% of the time. A pretty high standard. Blocking the Patriot Act, revealing secret prisons, limiting hardcore interrogation techniques, leaking this secret program, and other statements by the Democrats are severely undermining our gov'ts ability to fight terrorism. But, according to some on these boards (not all of you), why fight something that doesn't exist.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
I don't believe it has to be an "either/or" condition. One can choose freedom combined with diligent awareness.

I choose freedom from being spied on in my own home, on my own phone, on my own computer. It's a shame to imagine our government wasting resources spying on Americans when they should be protecting our borders and screening the bad guys.

Why do you trust them so much, Tigger Magic? Haven't you ever heard of abuse of power? This is it.

Plus, we don't have "talking points." We just think for ourselves. No one feeds us talking points. Novel idea; you should try it.
 

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