DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[Mouseforward]

The big test will come in about 3 - 4 months when people start trying for rooms during the fall.

I think we will see it in 2026/2027 after people are caught , people will test the system.

I think the fire-sale will start soon on boardwalk points as the big guys with thousands of points will not want to risk being the last one out... What was the Margin Call quote “There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat.”

The big guys will be first to get out.

 

[Sandisw]

Things I'd like to know:
1) (real life example). I haven't rented last year and I have not rented this year. Can I rent all my points next year, covering two years of dues? Or, said in a different way: will they look at the average across multiple years?

2) will they look at reservations by UY or by Calendar year?

3) what does it count, when the reservation was made (i.e. when the money changed hands) or when the reservation happens?

4) transferring points is supposed to not involve exchange of money. So, I guess they'll look only at rentals and not transfers?

I am going to answer based on the answers of my conversation..not exactly the same questions, but this is based on the answers that I got (out of order)

There has been no change to the policy regarding transfers, and this is strictly in relation to an owner renting out their points.....my assumption is they will continue a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes transfers for money...but, getting a transfer isn't going to impact the annual dues so an owner is still going to be limited.

Having transfer points would not give an owner "extra" to rent out...for exmaple, using me....I have 900 points with $7K in dues...if I get a transfer of points that year of say, 300, I know have 1200 in my account to use, but I am still capped to rental income of no more than $7K since those are my annual dues.

The fact that this is based on the annual dues, I would say they will look at reservations based on the calendar year and not UY....how often the metric will run, she is not sure.....so it could be yearly, a rolling window, or anything in between....not clear.

All we know is that if it looks like your membership could be renting reservations above what your dues would be, it will be referred to the business division for review...

Nothing is changing in terms of when a reservation would be seen as a potential rental....reservations in the names of owners vs names of others....and I am not going to get into people who try to just leave their own name on it because I think DVC is smart enough to have a plan for that if it seems to be occuring over multiple years.

In reference to #1, I think it will be based on each year....if you don't rent one year, you will not automatically be able to rent all your points the next year and offset two years worth of points.

However, I would hope that DVC would have some level of case by case review and if an owner had a reason to do that....emercency or family life situation....they might say its okay....but this comes down to how they will evaluate membersihps...the old 2008 policy was based on a rolling 12 month period...no idea if this will still be the case....

If it were me, I would not go into this thinking they are going to let owners do rent all every other year regularly ...I would expect that if a membership has all its points rented, then a review will take place and then the owner will have to make their case with DVC...again, this wasn't specifically discussed as I only asked about yearly.

 

[CarolynFH]

I would hope that DVC would have some level of case by case review

This is what I hope/expect as well.

 

[Brianstl]

I will repeat myself....the POS requires them to give me that in writing, and the FL 721 requires that all records of the association are made available to owners at their request. No different than requesting to reivew the records of the association for budgets, etc.

Failure to give an owner a requested document in 10 days is seen as an attempt by the association to subvert (or whatever the official word is) the law and that they can be chartged $50/day for every day that is late.

The only way they can remove that clause regarding having an official policy in place for commerical purpose, enterprise and actiivty for an owner to review is to file an amendement to the state to have it removed, which the state would approve. All this is explained in FL 721 that governs timeshares.

I have requested it and expect to get it and if not, I will be filing a complaint to say my request to review records has been ignored.

Here is the clause that says there is a written record of the policy and can be reviewed. Not sure why you appear to be arguing against something that the contract states exists.....

View attachment 979156

My apologies, you are correct when it comes to The Association. I was wrong. My apologies again

 

[Genie+]

Are we allowed to rent out 100% of points if the rental price we charge does not exceed the dues cost per point? If I own 100 BWV points and rent them out at $8pp, is that fine because the total money I’m receiving for the rental did not exceed my yearly dues cost? If I decided to only rent 25pts out of that 100pts, then I can legally do a confirmed reservation charging $35pp because that total money received for my rental did not exceed my dues bill that year?

What if I also owned a contract at VGF for 200pts… could I then rent out all 100 of my BWV points at $25pp, because that would keep me under my $2,500 annual dues bill. I’d just need to personally use all our VGF points.

But I also saw mention a few times on this board, where rental patterns/activity could only be applied individually per membership. So if my BWV and VGF contracts had different owners listed or different UY, then I would not get the benefit of my total dues cost - just the amount of dues within that membership.

 

[Mouseforward]

The good news for Vero Beach owners is they can pretty much rent all their points ....

 

[Genie+]

Has anyone yet completed a reservation that was booked later than June 2, after the updated checkbox confirming personal use?

Could something else be required later, like the guest confirming during check-in if it is a rental or not, with a reminder about the necessary rental contract?

 

[Sandisw]

My apologies, you are correct when it comes to The Association. I was wrong. My apologies again

No worries!!! I’m always in for a great debate and I appreciate others who give it right back to me!!

I take nothing personal!!!

I am going to add that DVC has reached out that my letter regarding commercial renting and request to review has been received.

It will be reviewed and then they will be in touch! I didn’t expect them to ignore the request but it was nice that they responded as soon as it was in the hands of the correct people.

So,

 

[Genie+]

The good news for Vero Beach owners is they can pretty much rent all their points ....

Lol. I was thinking about buying Poly… until now. Those dues are just too low!

 

[Sandisw]

Are we allowed to rent out 100% of points if the rental price we charge does not exceed the dues cost per point? If I own 100 BWV points and rent them out at $8pp, is that fine because the total money I’m receiving for the rental did not exceed my yearly dues cost? If I decided to only rent 25pts out of that 100pts, then I can legally do a confirmed reservation charging $35pp because that total money received for my rental did not exceed my dues bill that year?

What if I also owned a contract at VGF for 200pts… could I then rent out all 100 of my BWV points at $25pp, because that would keep me under my $2,500 annual dues bill. I’d just need to personally use all our VGF points.

But I also saw mention a few times on this board, where rental patterns/activity could only be applied individually per membership. So if my BWV and VGF contracts had different owners listed or different UY, then I would not get the benefit of my total dues cost - just the amount of dues within that membership.

I asked specifically about what could be rented. It’s based on your total annual dues for all your points.

This will apply to owners and not memberships. So, any combination of reservations that appear to be rentals for all the points, your rental income can not exceed the the total cost of dues.

If you wanted to rent 100% of all the points you own one year, then you should be flagged but then if you had rental contracts proving you did not rent to exceed, then you’d most likely should be fine.

I say that because it matches in a way to the example given last year at the meeting as what is okay.

Basically, IMO, make sure that whatever you are renting that you own never gives you income beyond dues and be prepared with rental contracts to prove to DVC you are not in violation.

 

[Sandisw]

Has anyone yet completed a reservation that was booked later than June 2, after the updated checkbox confirming personal use?

Could something else be required later, like the guest confirming during check-in if it is a rental or not, with a reminder about the necessary rental contract?

I was told there are going to be no changes to the process for booking and changes, etc

I have booked, changed and done lead guest changes all since the new check box.

Obviously, DVC can decide to do anything they want, but the message I have gotten the times I called is that this is not a policy change just enhanced enforcement.

And that is why we won’t be getting anything from DVC because they don’t consider it a new policy…

 

[Kingkonig]

You know I think this is an interesting way of going about it. Disney could decide that owners “covering cost of dues” doesn’t include covering broker fees and/or any applicable taxes.

I don’t think the brokers will be able to take their 8-12% for long if Disney decides that that broker fee comes out of what the renter can recoup, rather than in addition. It’ll be more of a “I hope to lose less” rather than “I hope to break even”

 

[mkatsy]

You know I think this is an interesting way of going about it. Disney could decide that owners “covering cost of dues” doesn’t include covering broker fees and/or any applicable taxes.

I don’t think the brokers will be able to take their 8-12% for long if Disney decides that that broker fee comes out of what the renter can recoup, rather than in addition. It’ll be more of a “I hope to lose less” rather than “I hope to break even”

I’m not an accountant, but I live with them if you don’t work off of gross revenue you open the door for a “rebate” situation where a third party could charge 15% fee, then rebate the owner a gift card, etc. for the 5% surcharge

 

[Kingkonig]

I’m not an accountant, but I live with them if you don’t work off of gross revenue you open the door for a “rebate” situation where a third party could charge 15% fee, then rebate the owner a gift card, etc. for the 5% surcharge

Exactly! Not an accountant either, but finance.

This does seem to support my theory that Disney wants to shut down the major rental sites, or at least significantly kneecap them.

 

[Tatebeck]

Exactly! Not an accountant either, but finance.

This does seem to support my theory that Disney wants to shut down the major rental sites, or at least significantly kneecap them.

And even if they were allowed to own and rent their own points (which I'm pretty sure they're not) then they couldn't even rent them out over the cost of the dues for all of the points they owned, so it would make it pretty useless for them to own their own points anyway. Nice!

 

[Cyberc1978]

And when you never opened the door to your room? A simple IT audit would get ya.

Just because you don’t scan your phone or magic band to open a door doesn’t necessarily mean you weren’t there.

 

[Tatebeck]

Just because you don’t scan your phone or magic band to open a door doesn’t necessarily mean you weren’t there.

I'm pretty sure they could still tell in some way. Your phone never connected to any of their wifis, never opened the app while you were there or used it to make any food orders, etc. If that is abnormal from your normal trip, I think they could tell.

 

[Kingkonig]

I'm pretty sure they could still tell in some way. Your phone never connected to any of their wifis, never opened the app while you were there or used it to make any food orders, etc. If that is abnormal from your normal trip, I think they could tell.

Also this isn’t a criminal court of law where they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were renting. It’s not even a civil case (unless you bring one) where the requirement is a preponderance of evidence! They are able to review activity, they get to make a decision, and you can appeal.

If you’re making several reservations where you are the main guest, but Disney never has evidence you showed up on property they absolutely can take action. If you can convince them that you’re acting above board good luck, but I sure wouldn’t be making that gamble!

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Just because you don’t scan your phone or magic band to open a door doesn’t necessarily mean you weren’t there.

That and I doubt Disney wants to get into the policing business of who is in a room. If the police need a warrant or have to accept "He/she isn't home right now" then so too would Disney, no?

The rent limit isn't going to kneecap longtime commercial owners. By now, they have a list of trusted partners. People willing to lie to a faceless conglomerate by signing a rental agreement for less face value than actual.

It will just force them to pivot. Yes, some may dump contracts but it won't be a mass exodus.
When I was happily mining ETH (Ethereum) and it switched to proof of concept, THAT was a mass exodus! Instantly, you went from thousands if not millions of miners to ZERO.

All this talk of DVC, points and Disney makes me want to relax in the massage chair, watch a Marvel movie and count down the days till our trip to Grand Floridian. It will be our first time staying there though we always have breakfast there. That resort is always so clean, no dust anywhere in the lobby or elsewhere, not even the obscure places high up or real low.

 

[Sandisw]

You know I think this is an interesting way of going about it. Disney could decide that owners “covering cost of dues” doesn’t include covering broker fees and/or any applicable taxes.

I don’t think the brokers will be able to take their 8-12% for long if Disney decides that that broker fee comes out of what the renter can recoup, rather than in addition. It’ll be more of a “I hope to lose less” rather than “I hope to break even”

The rental income received by the owner is what will count.

So, if they have a rental contract to be paid for $16/point, then that is the amount the owner can use to prove their numbers.

All that matters at this point is that owners who are renting to offset dues will be allowed to continue to do that

This notion that DVC is going to try and go after brokers is unfounded and nothing to suggest that.

They know they can enforce the terms of the contract for the owner and if they believe your rentals are exceeding it and you get flagged. Your proof will be your rental contract.

If DVC isn’t going to allow owners to use a rental contract to prove income, then there would have been no reason to use this as the metric and continue to allow owners to offset dues