DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[Sandisw]

If it was up to me, the DVC rental industry would completely collapse. I believe that DVC is intended for members to use their points to book vacations for themselves and their family. Rentals should be extraordinarily rare, so rare in fact that it wouldn't be worth to have a rentals board on here. But it's not up to me.

And yes, since DVC is not upholding their contract (a contract that they wrote!) by enforcing their provisions against commercial renting, why should anyone else?

Just a small point…no one knows if they are not enforcing the policy because we don’t have access to what they have done at the indivual owner level..and we never will.

We also don’t have any official policy document out there other than 2008 policy..

We do now have the words frequently or regularly but DVC gets to define what that looks like and so far, we have no examples of what actions match. and IMO, we probably never will.

So, we wait to see if we get reports of people actually being told they are in violation, but given the policy history, I will be shocked to see a narrow scope vs what they have done in the past.

It will be interesting to see what information I get from my request I sent last week certified to them.

I think what is clear at this point is that each owner will need to interpret the rules of their contract if nothing specific is given by DVC, and rent to the level they believe falls under personal use…

 

[IMMkXLVI]

I’ve got to say, I'm very impressed with your rapid transformation from “I just purchased and have no idea what’s going on, I just rent from time to time” to a well informed and strongly opinionated owner.

Snarky comment aside, as with many things in life, the learning curve various depending on circumstance and need.
Ours changed very soon after buying DVC which necessitated the crash course into areas I wouldn't have bothered with
otherwise, such as renting.

Now if I was going to be snarky, like you, I'd have said something like....you impress easily.

 

[DougEMG]

Seems to me that everyone here has said large point owners renting a lot of points that clearly seem like a business are the ones DVC should be looking at.

Agree in principle that DVC should look at large point owners running a business.

In practice I think there is some disagreement on what a lot of points is.

Now, I definitely think that someone renting 4000 points does seem like it is too many points for someone to be renting and they are probably doing it as a business. I wonder what DVC is going to use as a limit, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 or what?

 

[Mouseforward]

Agree in principle that DVC should look at large point owners running a business.

In practice I think there is some disagreement on what a lot of points is.

Now, I definitely think that someone renting 4000 points does seem like it is too many points for someone to be renting and they are probably doing it as a business. I wonder what DVC is going to use as a limit, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 or what?

Well, obviously, that’s a simple answer, hold on let me count my points… yeah the answer is 451 and over.

 

[Brian Noble]

In practice I think there is some disagreement on what a lot of points is.

Anyone driving faster than me is a maniac and a menace, and should have their license revoked. Conversely, anyone driving more slowly than me is blocking the free flow of traffic, and needs to get out of the way.

 

[Tatebeck]

Agree in principle that DVC should look at large point owners running a business.

In practice I think there is some disagreement on what a lot of points is.

Now, I definitely think that someone renting 4000 points does seem like it is too many points for someone to be renting and they are probably doing it as a business. I wonder what DVC is going to use as a limit, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 or what?

The problem is that it isn't just about the number of points someone has, even if they are renting out 100% of them this year. I think they aren't ever going to give a number of points you are allowed to rent out as then that gives commercial renters something they can try to work around.

A member with 4000 points that has used almost all of them over the past 10 years but rented out all 4000 of them for this single year may not be suspect at all. But a member owning 2000 that has rented out 90% over the past 5 years probably would be suspect. Or an owner with 500 points that has rented out 100% of them over the past 10 years.
-------------------------------------------------------
Just for fun, if for some reason Disney contacted me and I were tasked with this personally, I would make it an internal sliding scale assessment based on percentage of your membership points you rented out on average historically over certain periods and modified by the number of confirmed reservations for popular rooms you have rented out over those periods or any other modifiers we felt we needed. I would not post the algorithm publicly for anyone trying to game the system. I would then investigate any membership that is flagged by the algorithm regardless of the number of points owned, though I would probably start with the highest number of points owned on the list and work my way down, and maybe stop somewhere in the middle if availability and commercial renting seems to have improved significantly.

I would probably start with something with flags like this for the Disney Vacation CLUB (Correcting Leasing + Use Balance) (please note numbers are not final, this is just a first thought starting point for my not yet patented* CLUB system)

Memberships that have had:

• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/probably family members (PFM) on the contracts 100% of the time over the past 3 years
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 90% of the time over the past 4 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 80% of the time over the past 5 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 70% of the time over the past 7 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 60% of the time over the past 8 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 50% of the time over the past 10 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period

*High value rooms/periods to be determined by an internal list and updated as needed. (Would likely contain at least BWV resort view studios, AKV value studios, AKV club studios, First 2 weeks of December, etc. to start)


Then if a member is questioned and they can prove they were letting family/friends stay at no charge, then it is no issue and they can continue using their membership as normal, or receive a warning if they were mostly rentals, or get hit with the CLUB.

 

[mkatsy]

The problem is that it isn't just about the number of points someone has, even if they are renting out 100% of them this year. I think they aren't ever going to give a number of points you are allowed to rent out as then that gives commercial renters something they can try to work around.

A member with 4000 points that has used almost all of them over the past 10 years but rented out all 4000 of them for this single year may not be suspect at all. But a member owning 2000 that has rented out 90% over the past 5 years probably would be suspect. Or an owner with 500 points that has rented out 100% of them over the past 10 years.
-------------------------------------------------------
Just for fun, if for some reason Disney contacted me and I were tasked with this personally, I would make it an internal sliding scale assessment based on percentage of your membership points you rented out on average historically over certain periods and modified by the number of confirmed reservations for popular rooms you have rented out over those periods or any other modifiers we felt we needed. I would not post the algorithm publicly for anyone trying to game the system. I would then investigate any membership that is flagged by the algorithm regardless of the number of points owned, though I would probably start with the highest number of points owned on the list and work my way down, and maybe stop somewhere in the middle if availability and commercial renting seems to have improved significantly.

I would probably start with something with flags like this for the Disney Vacation CLUB (Correcting Leasing + Use Balance) (please note numbers are not final, this is just a first thought starting point for my not yet patented* CLUB system)

Memberships that have had: correcting leasing use balance

• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/probably family members (PFM) on the contracts 100% of the time over the past 3 years
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 90% of the time over the past 4 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 80% of the time over the past 5 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 70% of the time over the past 7years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 60% of the time over the past 8years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room or during a high value* period
• All guests on the reservation that did not match any owners/members/PFM on the contracts 50% of the time over the past 10 years
  • +1 percentage point for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS.
  • +2 percentage points for every confirmed reservation in the last 12 months that had a lead guest name change by MS for a high value* room

*High value rooms/periods to be determined by an internal list and updated as needed. (Would likely contain at least BWV resort view studios, AKV value studios, AKV club studios, First 2 weeks of December, etc. to start)


Then if a member is questioned and they can prove they were letting family/friends stay at no charge, then it is no issue and they can continue using their membership as normal, or receive a warning if they were mostly rentals, or get hit with the CLUB.

I would send their not-PFM a survey “how would you rate the ease with which you rented these points?” “Would you consider renting again from this owner on your next trip?” “How would you rate the friendliness of the DVC owner you rented from?”

 

[Sandisw]

Agree in principle that DVC should look at large point owners running a business.

In practice I think there is some disagreement on what a lot of points is.

Now, I definitely think that someone renting 4000 points does seem like it is too many points for someone to be renting and they are probably doing it as a business. I wonder what DVC is going to use as a limit, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 or what?

That is the million dollar question isn’t it…I will be surprised if we hear of reports of owners with less than 2000 points being contacted in anyway.

 

[Tatebeck]

I would send their not-PFM a survey “how would you rate the ease with which you rented these points?” “Would you consider renting again from this owner on your next trip?” “How would you rate the friendliness of the DVC owner you rented from?”

I thought about that too! lol but I didn't add it since it was already a long post...

For any suspected member, send their "guests" a special survey that includes asking

For this Vacation Club stay, did you:
Stay on a family member or friends membership?
or
Rent out points from one of our members?

 

[VGCgroupie]

I thought about that too! lol but I didn't add it since it was already a long post...

For any suspected member, send their "guests" a special survey that includes asking

For this Vacation Club stay, did you:
Stay on a family member or friends membership?
or
Rent out points from one of our members?

This would end up just like PayPal friends and family to avoid fees. Strangers lie for each other all time.

 

[Tatebeck]

This would end up just like PayPal friends and family to avoid fees. Strangers lie for each other all time.

I don't know about that in this case. A simple question in a post-stay survey worded nicely, with no way for the owner to know what is selected is pretty innocent.

The stay already happened, and there is no risk to their reservation. There is no benefit for the guest to lie. And I personally would feel weird lying in a survey like that.

Even if they were asked to by the owner, there would be no way for them to know what was actually chosen, and these answers would only be used after they were flagged. Like the 20 reservation rule before, they could make it so that just 1 reservation being confirmed as a rental would be enough to do something. Getting 20ish or more people to lie for you on a survey year after year with no benefit for them would not be an easy thing to do IMO

 

[sndral]

I would send their not-PFM a survey “how would you rate the ease with which you rented these points?” “Would you consider renting again from this owner on your next trip?” “How would you rate the friendliness of the DVC owner you rented from?”

I love this . I can’t even get to the screen I want on the member site before a survey pops up. I’d have it ask

How many times have you visited WDW?

On your most recent visit did you
-Use your own DVC points to reserve your villa
-Pay cash for your villa to Disney
-Rent from a DVC owner you know
-Rent from a DVC owner you found on the internet/facebook
-Receive a gifted stay from a DVC owner/friend/family member

How likely will you stay in a DVC villa again?

Etc..

Heck, it could even be a survey that everyone who stays in villas gets - including questions about the condition of your villa, check in time, housekeeping satisfaction, etc..

 

[Brian Noble]

I will be surprised if we hear of reports of owners with less than 2000 points being contacted in anyway.

Based on how this has unfolded in other systems, I would not be surprised even a little. I don't think most of them will be, but there will be a handful. Think of it as a risk probability: higher-point owners who rent larger volumes over longer periods of time are at higher risk of running afoul of anything Disney comes up with. But, it is possible for small-time people to get swept up in any action---it will be very unlikely, but it can happen.

 

[Sandisw]

Based on how this has unfolded in other systems, I would not be surprised even a little. I don't think most of them will be, but there will be a handful. Think of it as a risk probability: higher-point owners who rent larger volumes over longer periods of time are at higher risk of running afoul of anything Disney comes up with. But, it is possible for small-time people to get swept up in any action---it will be very unlikely, but it can happen.

Anyting can happen…true..but in this case? Just don’t see it, and I think having been at the meetings last year? The implication was this was for major players because they said that commercial renting, like walking, was not a common practice.

 

[Huskerpal]

If DVC wants, they can change how certain resorts or time periods are booked based on high demand.

So, they create a special season list that owners and non owners can get on.

Owners get a one month advantage over non owners to put in their request for the dates they want within the special season timeframe.

DVC then can either contact everyone in order they are on the list or do a lottery and pick people randomly to confirm reservations.

So, it puts some randomness to who will get the room but it’s a continuous list…it doesn’t reset…so, if one were to get a room the first year, there name comes off the list and if they want to be considered the next year, they go to the bottom of the list.

Just the clarify, they can. institute up to a 5 night minimum…it can never be more than that.

But, the contract allows it and so if they found it necessary, it’s well within the rules.

The rules for the list state it’s a one month advantage which is the required by the contract, and that the extra is gone.

The only reason they’d do this is because of demand and fair or not they can definitely do it for one resort and not others.

Each resort can have a different home resort booking period…that’s why the decisions DVC might make with enough complaints about something might not be what owners really want.

While I think this is unlikely, it would be a way to address the high demand for those rooms that have also become a target for those large point commercial renters.

I wonder if this is how Disney will deal with contracts that end January 2042? Given that owners could be going into 2041 booking periods with banked points and other owners will want "one last stay at BWV", they will need to deal with the winddown of those contracts somehow. It certainly looks like they have some of the tools to deal with these issues already.

 

[Tatebeck]

I wonder if this is how Disney will deal with contracts that end January 2042? Given that owners could be going into 2041 booking periods with banked points and other owners will want "one last stay at BWV", they will need to deal with the winddown of those contracts somehow. It certainly looks like they have some of the tools to deal with these issues already.

I don't think they will have to go that far. I think it is more likely that they reduce the amount of points that you can bank and/or borrow for the last couple years, just to make sure there aren't a ton of excess points banked into the 2042 resorts. They wouldn't want 200% of yearly points for that resort having to be used up in a single year. I think more people will be looking to borrow them than bank them though to avoid inventory crunch at the end of the final year. A few people will want to stay at the very end and go down with the ships though lol.

But the end of 2042 resorts closing may not be that big of a deal because even if you don't get anything at 11 months for when you wanted to go, you can still stay at one of the other original resorts and book at 7 months. It will be more interesting very far into the future when the first restricted resorts close. You will have resale members who literally cannot use their points anywhere else, so the final crunch there could be significantly worse.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

I don't know about that in this case. A simple question in a post-stay survey worded nicely, with no way for the owner to know what is selected is pretty innocent.

The stay already happened, and there is no risk to their reservation. There is no benefit for the guest to lie. And I personally would feel weird lying in a survey like that.

Even if they were asked to by the owner, there would be no way for them to know what was actually chosen, and these answers would only be used after they were flagged. Like the 20 reservation rule before, they could make it so that just 1 reservation being confirmed as a rental would be enough to do something. Getting 20ish or more people to lie for you on a survey year after year with no benefit for them would not be an easy thing to do IMO

But then after a few surveys start circulating around, renters would bring the survey up ahead of time, even perhaps offering a discount for a favorable survey. Like Amazon sellers that offer to send a $25 dollar gift card for screenshots of feedback or the service advisor at the dealer always bringing up how I'll get a survey and if I can't comfortably answer all tens, to please reach out first,

 

[ParkHoppers]

I wonder if the crackdown at Bonnet Creek has increased direct sales. If it has I think we know where this is going.
I do think a heavy crackdown of renting DVC points would increase availability for us owners.

 

[Sandisw]

I wonder if this is how Disney will deal with contracts that end January 2042? Given that owners could be going into 2041 booking periods with banked points and other owners will want "one last stay at BWV", they will need to deal with the winddown of those contracts somehow. It certainly looks like they have some of the tools to deal with these issues already.

It is possible and I also think it’s very possible they increase the home resort period so that owners have a much longer time to book before they allow others in.

They really have a lot of options they can employ.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't know about that in this case. A simple question in a post-stay survey worded nicely, with no way for the owner to know what is selected is pretty innocent.

The stay already happened, and there is no risk to their reservation. There is no benefit for the guest to lie. And I personally would feel weird lying in a survey like that.

Even if they were asked to by the owner, there would be no way for them to know what was actually chosen, and these answers would only be used after they were flagged. Like the 20 reservation rule before, they could make it so that just 1 reservation being confirmed as a rental would be enough to do something. Getting 20ish or more people to lie for you on a survey year after year with no benefit for them would not be an easy thing to do IMO

Again, why would DVC go to all this trouble when they don’t need too?

They simply need to look at the membership and watch what is happening…and look for patterns that seem out of whack against what would be considered normal levels of renting?