DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[DL1WDW2]

I have faithfully followed this thread but now we are talking about a Special Season Lottery…
What is that?

 

[GoingSince1990]

Those sketchy "people finder" sites won't list every connection, just the easy ones. For those like me that shun social media, don't allow friends to tag me in their posts and never post about anything about friends and family, they'd have a hard time finding my outer circle, let alone my inner one. To say nothing of acquaintances and my second cousins best friends roommates adopted brothers neighbor.

I recently made a reservation for our son's future mother-in-law and some of her friends for later this year. And I don't use Facebook or similar either, there are no "people finder" sites that could connect us, and I have no idea how we could prove this was not a rental, if challenged (we are not charging her). Possibly a private detective working for a week or two could establish the familial link, but even this would not prove that no payment was taking place. Which is why I am convinced that the overwhelming focus will be on advertised spec rentals, because when an owner publicly advertises an existing reservation with a specified price, they cannot pretend that it is not a rental when challenged by DVC.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I recently made a reservation for our son's future mother-in-law and some of her friends for later this year. And I don't use Facebook or similar either, there are no "people finder" sites that could connect us, and I have no idea how we could prove this was not a rental, if challenged (we are not charging her).

I highly doubt Disney is going that deep into accessing data to prove connections. However, the companies that DO collect data are digging deeper and scrubbing data from far greater sources and going far deeper than just social media:

Different Types of Data Companies Collect: What’s the Catch?

And they're collecting it over months and years. It's not like a dating app or a "people finder" site that accesses primarily publicly available records databases. The real scrubbers know where you've been through phone pings and connections to public networks, they know your web browsing activity (through web browsing, online purchases, web cookies, etc.), and they can even create a "profile" of you based on all of the data they collect (what you buy, where you shop, what web sites you visit) to sell to prospective merchants, service providers, etc. Stuff you aren't ever going to see when you pay $39.99 to see if that Michael Johnson in Albuquerque is the same guy you played Little League with. THOSE are the data collectors that large corporations pay hefty sums to.

Again, Disney isn't going to do that, but don't think for a second that it can't be done (or isn't being done) as we chat on this forum (which also may be getting scrubbed for data, for that matter).

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I recently made a reservation for our son's future mother-in-law and some of her friends for later this year. And I don't use Facebook or similar either, there are no "people finder" sites that could connect us, and I have no idea how we could prove this was not a rental, if challenged (we are not charging her). Possibly a private detective working for a week or two could establish the familial link, but even this would not prove that no payment was taking place. Which is why I am convinced that the overwhelming focus will be on advertised spec rentals, because when an owner publicly advertises an existing reservation with a specified price, they cannot pretend that it is not a rental when challenged by DVC.

Does your son have social media? The future MIL? His future bride? Any of your family? Oh you're linked. You just don't think you are.

 

[Sykes]

In the past Facebook created "shadow profiles" of users who didn't use Facebook. Every site on the Internet that had a "share on Facebook" button was sharing data with Facebook, which meant that Facebook was able to track the browsing history of non-users over like 90% of the Internet. Sadly, privacy is pretty much dead--Facebook knew who you were even if you didn't use Facebook, and shared it with third parties.

This is also mostly irrelevant because Disney isn't going to go through and try to evaluate whether or not you have links to your guests unless they're already pretty certain they're going to go after you.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Someone else pointed this out hundreds of posts ago, but this is how the path to spec renting starts for a lot of people. They discover by accident that they can get 2x as much per point if they snatch up the desirable dates in certain categories and then they start doing it frequently. Some even buy more points at resale so "my points can pay for my points." I do think there are lot of huge renters, but I don't think the problems in the system will improve enough unless the people spec renting a few hundred points every year are also stopped.

The trick is balancing the situations where you actually have no choice (in your case, the cancellation occurs after July banking deadline for reasons beyond your control, instead of just ignoring it until July so you can try to make more money) so owners in a bind can rent out the trips they legitimately booked for their family, without making it easy for others to lock up the most desirable rooms to max profit. My concern is that the more people who think "oh Disney will never come for me, I'm just a small fish with my 300 points a year of spec rentals" the more likely it is that Disney will eventually have to take action to stop all name changes.

"My second cousins [sic] best friends [sic] roomates [sic] adopted brothers [sic] neighbor" would definitely not be friends and family personal use... acquaintances is probably closer to the line when Disney says friends and family... but I don't think Disney is going to be trying to split hairs with whatever system it uses to assess commercial renting, there are plenty of clearcut cases of people who spec rent half or more of their points to strangers on the internet that can be matched up with FB posts, internet sites, and 3rd party broker listings.

There is an element of anxiety in how DVC will handle this reservation if I make the change. Will it put an asterisk on our account?
The week is a great one, one we could potentially use even since my wife won't have class and neither will the kids. I work for myself so my boss is flexible In the past, my wife has been less than excited about being anywhere but home that week. She likes to decorate and such.

I don't see myself doing this, on purpose. I'm risk adverse and the issues of DVC blowback far out strips the financial gain. I have a feeling someone with a waitlist will be happy if my renter doesn't reply by the end of the month. I'm thinking of sending a certified letter to the mailing address so cover all bases. In his last communiqué he mentioned already having purchased airfare. I don't want to be responsible for issues with that. So far, text messages and emails have gone unanswered.

Yes, but you are the exception. We live in a very narcissistic world, and a Disney trip is a pretty big brag for many people.

I'm not sure I'd agree. Perhaps among the very young but anyone mature enough to read the news is aware how easy it is for scammers to use information in a way that wreaks havoc on your credit and beyond. Why give away so freely the thing scammers value most: information.

A lot more people shun social media now. And what if they have a common name? I can’t imagine it’s easy to tell Mike Johnson apart from all the other Mike Johnsons.

I see what you did there.

But yes, and to say nothing of spelling. A name may sound one way but is spelled very differently.

 

[Sandisw]

I have faithfully followed this thread but now we are talking about a Special Season Lottery…
What is that?

If DVC wants, they can change how certain resorts or time periods are booked based on high demand.

So, they create a special season list that owners and non owners can get on.

Owners get a one month advantage over non owners to put in their request for the dates they want within the special season timeframe.

DVC then can either contact everyone in order they are on the list or do a lottery and pick people randomly to confirm reservations.

So, it puts some randomness to who will get the room but it’s a continuous list…it doesn’t reset…so, if one were to get a room the first year, there name comes off the list and if they want to be considered the next year, they go to the bottom of the list.

 

[atthebeachclub]

I see what you did there.

I chose that name because I used to know a Mike Johnson. That man is un-Google-able. The number of Mike Johnsons in the US is too darn high.

 

[Sandisw]

There is an element of anxiety in how DVC will handle this reservation if I make the change. Will it put an asterisk on our account?
The week is a great one, one we could potentially use even since my wife won't have class and neither will the kids. I work for myself so my boss is flexible In the past, my wife has been less than excited about being anywhere but home that week. She likes to decorate and such.

I don't see myself doing this, on purpose. I'm risk adverse and the issues of DVC blowback far out strips the financial gain. I have a feeling someone with a waitlist will be happy if my renter doesn't reply by the end of the month. I'm thinking of sending a certified letter to the mailing address so cover all bases. In his last communiqué he mentioned already having purchased airfare. I don't want to be responsible for issues with that. So far, text messages and emails have gone unanswered.



I'm not sure I'd agree. Perhaps among the very young but anyone mature enough to read the news is aware how easy it is for scammers to use information in a way that wreaks havoc on your credit and beyond. Why give away so freely the thing scammers value most: information.


I see what you did there.

But yes, and to say nothing of spelling. A name may sound one way but is spelled very differently.

I do think that part of all of this is that DVC understands what the contract requires and what it doesn’t, including their responsibility to make rules regarding renting be reasonable to be seen as for a commercial reason…ie: commercial enterprise…and not just anything they can tie to the word “commercial” or profit…

When you look at the last policy document from 2008, that, along with some specific information in the contract, does give at least some insight for owners on where they saw the line that shifted things.

Things and times have changed and they may indeed add metrics that they didn’t have to worry about before to close some of the loopholes.

DVC also knows they need to balance family and friends against renters and I really do believe that the enforcement will take this into consideration. I will be shocked if they don’t give owners the benefit of the doubt unless their activity is way out of line with the average owner…and they have all that data at their fingertips.

Right now, DVC has not…IMO I don’t expect them to either…defined what they consider to be “frequently or regularly” renting that no longer falls under personal use.

So, it’s up to all of us to make that decision and until DVC tells an owner their actions represent a pattern that they consider to be using your membership for a commercial purpose, one has to go on their own contract understanding.

So far, what we know is DVC has added those words to the terms, and are having owners attest it’s for personal use.

Many here have lots of ideas and wishes for what they are hoping to see DVC do and so we wait to see if anything beyond what has been done will actually occur.

 

[mkatsy]

There is an element of anxiety in how DVC will handle this reservation if I make the change. Will it put an asterisk on our account?
The week is a great one, one we could potentially use even since my wife won't have class and neither will the kids. I work for myself so my boss is flexible In the past, my wife has been less than excited about being anywhere but home that week. She likes to decorate and such.

I don't see myself doing this, on purpose. I'm risk adverse and the issues of DVC blowback far out strips the financial gain. I have a feeling someone with a waitlist will be happy if my renter doesn't reply by the end of the month. I'm thinking of sending a certified letter to the mailing address so cover all bases. In his last communiqué he mentioned already having purchased airfare. I don't want to be responsible for issues with that. So far, text messages and emails have gone unanswered.



I'm not sure I'd agree. Perhaps among the very young but anyone mature enough to read the news is aware how easy it is for scammers to use information in a way that wreaks havoc on your credit and beyond. Why give away so freely the thing scammers value most: information.


I see what you did there.

But yes, and to say nothing of spelling. A name may sound one way but is spelled very differently.

Well, just for curiosity sake, I went into a public Disney tips page on Facebook and put “DVC rental” in the search bar …. I stopped counting after the first 25 women with “global access” profiles and photos of the family (including their children ) in “Deluxe” accommodations…some people value attention and external validation more than privacy. I also think that when people are proud of the “deal” they got, and the fact that renting points allowed them to trade up their accommodations, they tend to overshare probably because they are excited. If a member’s rental pattern is considered commercial activity, I would not bank on their customers keeping it on the down low.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Well, just for curiosity sake, I went into a public Disney tips page on Facebook and put “DVC rental” in the search bar …. I stopped counting after the first 25 women with “global access” profiles and photos of the family (including their children ) in “Deluxe” accommodations…some people value attention and external validation more than privacy.

There will always be those that don't think their privacy is at risk until it is.
I've dealt with identity theft and back in a time before it was recognized as a thing. Back then, people treated you like you were just trying to avoid debt. It took a lot of evidence to convince authorities that it wasn't you.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I have faithfully followed this thread but now we are talking about a Special Season Lottery…
What is that?

The history was that when DVC was 1st developed they didn't really know how a point based, non-fixed week timeshare would work out and wanted to cover the potential issue of having the majority of owners trying to book a certain time. I am of the understanding Christmas was the most concern at the time. The other tool they have for excess demand was season point reallocations but there's a limit on how much can be reallocated each year. The seasonal lottery allowed them to more quickly deal with excess demand for a time period.

I do not believe the special season lottery would ever be used again but it is there if they deemed it necessary.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Personally I don’t think that DVC would implement a 5 days minimum reservation - think about all the owners with only 50 points or maybe less. Yes 50 points will give you 4 maybe 5 days in May but not in December there you can get 3 or Maybe 4 days.

Also even with a list or using the lottery, we have to remember that DVC gets to set the rules or change them if they see fit. Could be that owners can sign up for the list at 12 months and non owners can sign up at 8 months. Owners won’t hear back until earliest 11 months out and non owners 7 months out. Owners can join the list multiple times between 12 and 8 months out and still get a head of non owners. At 8 months all members are created equal.

Lottery would be the same.

Keeping the booking windows means owners keep their priority which means a lot.

I don’t know the original list system or lottery system but unless all resorts used those systems then it hardy seems fair that an SSR owner could join a list or lottery pot only 1 month after the owners at the lottery and list resort and still keep priority 7-11 months at their own resort.

 

[Sandisw]

Personally I don’t think that DVC would implement a 5 days minimum reservation - think about all the owners with only 50 points or maybe less. Yes 50 points will give you 4 maybe 5 days in May but not in December there you can get 3 or Maybe 4 days.

Also even with a list or using the lottery, we have to remember that DVC gets to set the rules or change them if they see fit. Could be that owners can sign up for the list at 12 months and non owners can sign up at 8 months. Owners won’t hear back until earliest 11 months out and non owners 7 months out. Owners can join the list multiple times between 12 and 8 months out and still get a head of non owners. At 8 months all members are created equal.

Lottery would be the same.

Keeping the booking windows means owners keep their priority which means a lot.

I don’t know the original list system or lottery system but unless all resorts used those systems then it hardy seems fair that an SSR owner could join a list or lottery pot only 1 month after the owners at the lottery and list resort and still keep priority 7-11 months at their own resort.

Just the clarify, they can. institute up to a 5 night minimum…it can never be more than that.

But, the contract allows it and so if they found it necessary, it’s well within the rules.

The rules for the list state it’s a one month advantage which is the required by the contract, and that the extra is gone.

The only reason they’d do this is because of demand and fair or not they can definitely do it for one resort and not others.

Each resort can have a different home resort booking period…that’s why the decisions DVC might make with enough complaints about something might not be what owners really want.

While I think this is unlikely, it would be a way to address the high demand for those rooms that have also become a target for those large point commercial renters.

 

[drusba]

I have faithfully followed this thread but now we are talking about a Special Season Lottery…
What is that?

I have a long post from 2023 that, among other things, explains what a Special Season Preference period is and describes the only one that ever existed in the 1990s for Dec 23 through Dec 31, which was terminated in 2000. See post #51 at www.disboards.com/threads/priority-booking-owners-vs-rented-points.3908751/page-3#post-64591429

 

[Cyberc1978]

The rules for the list state it’s a one month advantage which is the required by the contract, and that the extra is gone.

The only reason they’d do this is because of demand and fair or not they can definitely do it for one resort and not others.

Each resort can have a different home resort booking period…that’s why the decisions DVC might make with enough complaints about something might not be what owners really want.

While I think this is unlikely, it would be a way to address the high demand for those rooms that have also become a target for those large point commercial renters.

Since DVC can change the rules as they see fit I don’t believe that the way they did it 30 years ago will be the same they would do it today - should they decide to bring back the list.

 

[Sandisw]

Since DVC can change the rules as they see fit I don’t believe that the way they did it 30 years ago will be the same they would do it today - should they decide to bring back the list.

I don’t think they’d do it at all, but yes, they can change the rules…but one needs to go back and see if this is addressed in the contract or just HRR.

If it’s listed this way in the POS, then changing it may not be that simple. It would all depend on where it’s discussed and how.

However, people should always be aware of what can happen…the 4 month booking window can be reduced at any resort and it doesn’t have to apply to all the same.

Given what we are currently seeing, my guess is still that this is it and that enforcement will be against those very large point owners who are clearly renting because they do things out of the ordinary.

 

[Judique]

I don’t think they’d do it at all, but yes, they can change the rules…but one needs to go back and see if this is addressed in the contract or just HRR.

If it’s listed this way in the POS, then changing it may not be that simple. It would all depend on where it’s discussed and how.

However, people should always be aware of what can happen…the 4 month booking window can be reduced at any resort and it doesn’t have to apply to all the same.

Given what we are currently seeing, my guess is still that this is it and that enforcement will be against those very large point owners who are clearly renting because they do things out of the ordinary.

I could see a 4 month booking window reduced at a resort that does not book up fast such as SSR or OKW.

It wouldn't make much sense to increase the numbers of bookers by reducing the window at a resort where stuff is gone in 2 seconds at 11 months.

 

[Brian Noble]

a Disney trip is a pretty big brag for many people.

There is a certain swath of the US for whom a Disney trip is a status marker. It's not a small swath.

 

[Mouseforward]

@drusba thanks for the explanation.

It is interesting that issues were seen starting in the 1990's and a solution was attempted, then abandoned. Do you recall why it was stopped or was it 2001 that made it unnecessary and it was never restarted?