DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[EPCOT Terran]

Losing out on a choice reservation because someone is gaming the system leaves a bitter taste.

I agree completely about the bitter taste. I wonder how many regular owners even notice, though. How many think it's just hard to get some picks? If it gets any easier, will they notice? And if they do, will they tie it to Disney acting against commercial renters?

 

[Sandisw]

That is all that matters. Full stop. You also underestimate how many 7 month to 1 month period reservations these companies are monopolizing, making it much more difficult to add a day here or there to an existing trip. As a partial renter, this doesn’t bother me anymore, but it’s an issue whether you believe it or not.

I think that is why DVC updated transfer rules and will look the other way when people do it for money.

It helps their messaging with those owners who do care who stays in the room.

But, to be fair, there are many owners out there who do not care if a renter or an owner is using a room.

 

[Brian Noble]

Has it helped?

It's hard to say conclusively, because several changes happened at around the same time: the chilling of rental demand was only one of them. So it is not an easy "Y was the result of X."

But anecdotally, there were some very noticeable improvements. For example, there is a resort in the Wisconsin Dells with an included waterpark that was nigh impossible to book on the weekends or in the summer unless you owned there, and that has gotten much easier since these changes.

 

[muppets3d]

I agree completely about the bitter taste. I wonder how many regular owners even notice, though. How many think it's just hard to get some picks? If it gets any easier, will they notice? And if they do, will they tie it to Disney acting against commercial renters?

There are over 20k members, most are not as plugged in as us. They log in every year to book their vacations and that's about it.

 

[kilik64]

There are over 20k members, most are not as plugged in as us. They log in every year to book their vacations and that's about it.

Its more like 220k

 

[mistysue]

Or it could not...

The availability issues are not just caused by renters and I think that there are multiple issues that are causing those availability problems. Getting rid of a few large scale renters won't make those club level rooms one iota easier to get because, imo, 90%+ of those rooms are walked mostly by legit owners who are looking to stay there. Similarly - the availability issues with VGF Deluxe Studios Resort View are not caused by renting - you probably just have thousands of relatively new buyers from BPK who prefer staying on the original building.

I do think you will possibly see some improvement, but likely not at the places where people hope the most. You really think that, even if renting was 100% banned, the AKV value rooms will last into the 7 month window? or the BWV resort views? There's a reason why the pro renters focus on those pretty exclusively - there is a lot of value there given those points charts. That value may now go to owners, but it will still be mostly those booking at 8am ET at 11 months out, and those rooms will still be walked. Those looking to trade in with SAPs will not see much change, if any.

I do think you are missing a key factor here - when I, as a member, walk a room I release the earlier dates. If I want to stay July 1-4 and I start walking this as of some day in May, I release ALL of those May and June dates as I move along. 10-30 other people can then pick them up and get those rooms for a few nights.
When a commercial renter does it, they chop it up and rent out all those earlier dates. They are effectively taking that room completely off the market for members. Commercial renters might prevent a good 150-200 random members from staying in each desirable room over the course of a year. You get 3-4 commercial renters walking a room type and you're running out of options for a member to ever get into one. A member walking the room does not do that, as they release dates as they go along.

 

[muppets3d]

Its more like 220k

Yeah I missed the second 0 (typed on my phone) should go back and edit it I guess.

 

[muppets3d]

I do think you are missing a key factor here - when I, as a member, walk a room I release the earlier dates. If I want to stay July 1-4 and I start walking this as of some day in May, I release ALL of those May and June dates as I move along. 10-30 other people can then pick them up and get those rooms for a few nights.
When a commercial renter does it, they chop it up and rent out all those earlier dates. They are effectively taking that room completely off the market for members. Commercial renters might prevent a good 150-200 random members from staying in each desirable room over the course of a year. You get 3-4 commercial renters walking a room type and you're running out of options for a member to ever get into one. A member walking the room does not do that, as they release dates as they go along.

Right, the commercial renters have thousands of points so when they start a walk - they don't give up the dates they leave behind, they make them available for rent. The best regular members can hope for is to waitlist and pray.

I'm sorry, but this is not what DVC was designed for. It was designed for regular people to book villas for their personal enjoyment, and for their family to use. Renting might be a tangential benefit, somewhat like moonlight magic. But it is not intended to be a normal or regular aspect of the program. And I welcome Disney clamping down on it.

 

[Sandisw]

I’m not sure I’ve seen that argued, if you’d like to quote it. I think everyone agrees that there are going to be availability issues no matter what, it’s baked in the system. That any significant share of primo reservations is likely going to renters who put no money into the system is not ok. Losing out on a choice reservation sucks, but it’s the way it works. Losing out on a choice reservation because someone is gaming the system leaves a bitter taste.

It’s come up that those hard to get rooms will be easier.

But, it also comes up as to whether the average owner who needs to rent points one year because they can’t go should be prevented from booking them at all for a renter.

Like my extra VGF and RiV studio I am holding for December.

I didn’t book those to rent and will cancel come September when I know for sure I have no family or friends who need them…

But, if I was someone who decided to, should I be prohibited because they are high demand?

That’s where I think many of the posts differ. It’s not about the large renters who maximize profits….and DVC cracking down on them but the balance between what should and should not count as acceptable.

An owner who rents a few reservations a year?

IMO that to me is in line with the way the right to rent condos in FL is all about and why I hope that DVC chooses common sense enforcement in all of this.

 

[lowlight]

Right, the commercial renters have thousands of points so when they start a walk - they don't give up the dates they leave behind, they make them available for rent. The best regular members can hope for is to waitlist and pray.

I'm sorry, but this is not what DVC was designed for. It was designed for regular people to book villas for their personal enjoyment, and for their family to use. Renting might be a tangential benefit, somewhat like moonlight magic. But it is not intended to be a normal or regular aspect of the program. And I welcome Disney clamping down on it.

And then I imagine some number of those rooms go right into breakage when the renter cancels the reservation 30 days out.

 

[Matty B13]

I think a lot of the long time owners who use to have no problem booking what they wanted with a few exceptions started seeing problems in 2015. I think Davids was really the only big broker that was handling DVC reservations at that time, with a few of the Smaller Resale Brokers doing it as a side business prior to 2015. After that, starting in 2016 much bigger brokers started businesses with resale purchases and rentals at that time. I know this because in 2015-2016 we started researching a DVC purchase and the information was hard to find in 2015, but later in 2016 it became much easier. New Broker websites were much improved with resale listings and rental reservations and started being pushed on social media sites. You also stared seeing owners to start complain about having issues with getting reservations they use to have no problem getting. I think the bigger brokers are a victim of their own success right now, but if it wasn't them doing this someone else would have because until DVC enforces it's own rules it was a ripe market to be exploited.

 

[muppets3d]

And then I imagine some number of those rooms go right into breakage when the renter cancels the reservation 30 days out.

They probably mostly go to waitlists for members, but yeah I'm sure some goes to breakage as well!

 

[Sandisw]

I do think you are missing a key factor here - when I, as a member, walk a room I release the earlier dates. If I want to stay July 1-4 and I start walking this as of some day in May, I release ALL of those May and June dates as I move along. 10-30 other people can then pick them up and get those rooms for a few nights.
When a commercial renter does it, they chop it up and rent out all those earlier dates. They are effectively taking that room completely off the market for members. Commercial renters might prevent a good 150-200 random members from staying in each desirable room over the course of a year. You get 3-4 commercial renters walking a room type and you're running out of options for a member to ever get into one. A member walking the room does not do that, as they release dates as they go along.

This is true but given the number of one night rentals for high demand rooms out there, it does seem like even the commercial renters pick up the scraps to rent.

Those to me are not rooms that were gotten at 11 months at 8 am.

DVC doesn’t allow reservations to be split so if they are one nighters, they were booked that way.

If I had to guess, they stalk like the rest of use and grab them when they get canceled by an owner.

I have gotten one or two night AKV CL rooms that way in the past few years.

But, if those big time renters are gone, it may improve owners ability to pick up random days easier.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Same with rooms pulled for deposits to II…can deposit any rooms to match the amount, doesn’t have to be the resort, which is why you see a lot of SSR, etc…but I still believe the 11 month window applies.

I suspect they are doing this within the 7 month window, (and probably even less than that) based on the fact that:

1. These are usually going to be SSR and OKW (with a little bit of AKV, WL, and BW sprinkled in) even though I'm sure that people are depositing all kinds of points to II, so Disney would have to be using the 7 month booking window; and
2. II inventory never appears for trades greater than 7 months out, and usually appears only about 3-4 months out. There's no reason to think that Disney makes the booking with the exchanged points and then sits on it for months.

 

[Sandisw]

Right, the commercial renters have thousands of points so when they start a walk - they don't give up the dates they leave behind, they make them available for rent. The best regular members can hope for is to waitlist and pray.

I'm sorry, but this is not what DVC was designed for. It was designed for regular people to book villas for their personal enjoyment, and for their family to use. Renting might be a tangential benefit, somewhat like moonlight magic. But it is not intended to be a normal or regular aspect of the program. And I welcome Disney clamping down on it.

Except, a walk keeps a single reservation going,

And since DVC doesn’t allow owners to split reservations…which is a good thing in this instance…at some point they are starting again.

Most renters are not looking for more than a 7 day rental. Average size for many guests is now around 5 days.

 

[Sandisw]

I suspect they are doing this within the 7 month window, (and probably even less than that) based on the fact that:

1. These are usually going to be SSR and OKW (with a little bit of AKV, WL, and BW sprinkled in) even though I'm sure that people are depositing all kinds of points to II, so Disney would have to be using the 7 month booking window; and
2. II inventory never appears for trades greater than 7 months out, and usually appears only about 3-4 months out. There's no reason to think that Disney makes the booking with the exchanged points and then sits on it for months.

I wasn’t making a statement about what they do…just sharing what rules they are required to follow.

They may choose not to pull trades until the last minute, but I believe they are allowed to pull them up to 11 months in advance.

Obviously, since we see a lot of SSR, etc. they probably don’t pull early.

But that wasn’t the question asked.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I would be fine with that happening.

You would be fine with them making changes that are so onerous that it would drop the resale prices to zero ?

Houston, we have a problem……

 

[muppets3d]

Except, a walk keeps a single reservation going,

And since DVC doesn’t allow owners to split reservations…which is a good thing in this instance…at some point they are starting again.

Most renters are not looking for more than a 7 day rental. Average size for many guests is now around 5 days.

They walk past, the days they gave up reappear in the booking engine, they snap them up. Well oiled machine - provided a waitlist doesn't match and take the room first.

 

[Massachusetts]

Interestingly www.dvcresalemarket.com has posted an unusually high number of stripped contracts in the past 2 days. 21 out of 32 (65%) new listings are stripped or nearly stripped. The ratio of labeled stripped to current total listings is 78/477 (16%) as per www.dvcforless.com.

For comparisons sake www.fidelityrealestate.com has 5 stripped contracts out of 28 (18%) listed in the past 2 days. Currently fidelity has 80 contracts labeled stripped out of 260 total listings (30%).

Caveat: Label usages like "stripped" can vary even within brokerages.

 

[Sandisw]

They walk past, the days they gave up reappear in the booking engine, they snap them up. Well oiled machine - provided a waitlist doesn't match and take the room first.

If they are releasing them, then they would show up for someone else to grab, or as you say, a waitlist takes them.

Believe me, I have dropped days many times in hopes of snagging them back and lost. And, had success grabbing them back quickly.

Just clarifying for others that they can’t keep a room walked and then later break it up into multiple reservations for future rentals.

ETA: Food for thought…if these big time renters are dropping days, and potentially snagging them up, what impact would that have on those who have picked up the scraps?

If the 5 CL rooms are booked solely by owners who intend to use them, couldn’t it make the chances of a waitlist or snagging nights later on harder?