DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[PolyRob]

I found it really suspicious on my VDH rental that the rental store told me that the owner said I have a new reservation number a couple of weeks after booking and to load that one into my disneyland app and get rid of the old one.

Why would this happen? Did they cancel and rebook? Made me feel uneasy and the rental store wouldnt tell me why.

I have rented multiple times from Davids with no issue before deciding to become a member, but the possibility of an issue is turning me away in general (unrelated to what's going on now)

Maybe the "renter" took advantage of the glitch a few weeks back and booked DLH on SSR SAP post 2019 and wanted their DLH points back

 

[Mommb]

No question It’s a terrible idea for a renter to agree to that.

I was referring to DVC looking at the ones with an owner as a guest and deciding they have the right to cancel one.

As long as an owner is a guest, I see no way for DVC to have grounds to cancel it.

If DVC is already questioning whether someone is renting for commercial purposes and then sees the person’s name on several reservations to which different groups of people have been added, they could theoretically look at the reservations after they are used. They could use MDE and resort data to investigate whether the owner actually checked in (received a room key or accessed the room with a phone), whether everyone else in the room purchased/used park tickets and the owner did not, and whether the owner charged anything to the room. None of this information would prove anything, but it could be used to build evidence of a pattern. Then the owner could be issued a reminder that commercial use is prohibited and future reservations that appear to be commercial will be cancelled.

I doubt DVC would invest the time to do this, but they could.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

My two cents. This HAD to happen to keep direct sales moving. Who is going to drop $30k, $40k, $50k on a direct contract if the word is out that it is next to impossible to snag reservations outside of your home resort at peak times of year? Or even AT YOUR OWN resort if you haven’t pre planned your trip a year+ in advance? The commercial renters who snap up rooms, precluding regular DVC goers from snagging reservations for last minute or 4 month out trips, etc. were driving down the desirability of the product.

That is how it always should have been and the warnings have been on documents since day one. 1st come 1st served. They even have a way to handle it with a lottery and did use that for a year or two during what they expected to be the peak time around Christmas. I don't see it being pointed out as much recently but it is a timeshare, not a hotel, and the availability will be different and nothing guaranteed unless you actually have a guaranteed week. This is unlikely to change the availability for tough to book categories at popular times.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

If DVC is already questioning whether someone is renting for commercial purposes and then sees the person’s name on several reservations to which different groups of people have been added, they could theoretically look at the reservations after they are used. They could use MDE and resort data to investigate whether the owner actually checked in (received a room key or accessed the room with a phone), whether everyone else in the room purchased/used park tickets and the owner did not, and whether the owner charged anything to the room. None of this information would prove anything, but it could be used to build evidence of a pattern. Then the owner could be issued a reminder that commercial use is prohibited and future reservations that appear to be commercial will be cancelled.

I doubt DVC would invest the time to do this, but they could.

Online check would have to end. Plus you'd have to prove that somebody else didn't open the doors all the time, plus staying at DVC doesn't require going to a theme park nor having tickets. It's part of what makes policing this very tricky and where I have doubts on their doing this well.

 

[VGCgroupie]

It as posted above that DVC Rental store has already begun to limit how often they broker a rental.

They said they have alway had a restriction on not excessively renting for one member

Also, a change in the number of resetting advertised might be a clue!

Can you clarify this one?

 

[Sandisw]

If DVC is already questioning whether someone is renting for commercial purposes and then sees the person’s name on several reservations to which different groups of people have been added, they could theoretically look at the reservations after they are used. They could use MDE and resort data to investigate whether the owner actually checked in (received a room key or accessed the room with a phone), whether everyone else in the room purchased/used park tickets and the owner did not, and whether the owner charged anything to the room. None of this information would prove anything, but it could be used to build evidence of a pattern. Then the owner could be issued a reminder that commercial use is prohibited and future reservations that appear to be commercial will be cancelled.

I doubt DVC would invest the time to do this, but they could.

They could but even ways around that if an owner really wanted to get around it, they can.

Who says the owner has to unlock the door? Maybe the owner likes to do more resort time and not as much park time? Have the guest get a card tied to the the owner and use it?


As long as the owner is on the reservation as a guest. I don’t think they are going to try and go that deep.

Plus, those booking via the brokers would not be doing it so now you are down to private rentals and I’d be surprised to see many renters willing to agree.

So, while you may see some try to find ways to still rent a lot, my guess is a lot will not and simply get out of the market.

 

[Sandisw]

They said they have alway had a restriction on not excessively renting for one member

Can you clarify this one?

Stupid auto correct…and not sure how it happened.

I meant fewer confirmed reservations for individual nights and such.

 

[Chuck S]

@Sandisw, I know it’s early days still, but is Disboards going to make any changes to the Rules/T&C’s of the rental board here? Seems like that might be prudent…

To my knowledge, the DISBoards has not received anything from Disney/DVC about our rental board. There could be several reasons for that, including the fact that the Boards are not directly involved in any of the transactions, unlike a broker, we are not middle men, we don't involve ourselves in the transactions at all. We do have a nominal charge for owners to use the Rent/Transfer board, unless they meet our posting prerequisites, and are active posters in areas of the DISBoards other than the Rental Board. Our board is basically the equivalent of running a newspaper ad. We also do not allow advertising any existing reservations for rent further than 30 days from the check-in date, unless you pay a substantial amount, up to $250, for a MAXIMUM of three pre-existing reservations to be offered outside of that 30 day check-in window during a one year period.. And unless you purchase the $250 tier, you are limited to 3 or 6 rental threads per year, that are only allowed to remain open for 1 month. The $250 tier allows 8 threads, three of which may be existing reservations outside the 30 day window, with the remaining 5 threads used as Points for Rent/Transfer type threads. The DIS Rental Board is quite restrictive, compared to other sites, and really, small potatoes to a company the size of Disney/DVC.

 

[Girlstar30]

Maybe the "renter" took advantage of the glitch a few weeks back and booked DLH on SSR SAP post 2019 and wanted their DLH points back

That is actually a possibility

 

[LoveToDisney]

I wish they were more specific. If my memory is correct, 10+ years ago lots of people were buying double what they needed because they were going to rent out half their points to cover their own vacations. That sounds like personal use, I guess, but half of their points were bought just to rent. …..

I personally don’t believe renting out points to cover MF and the cost of my own vacation is “personal use.” Personal use is using the points one buys for their personal vacations whether it’s just my family or also friends…USING the points, not renting them out consistently. Yes, one may rent out your points when you have an occasional need to not use them and they cannot be banked or exchanged, etc. but not to consistently cover your expenses.

 

[ckb_nc]

That is incredibly dangerous for everyone involved. Disney should legit be locking down/suspending any members they find doing this.

Moreover it means there is one less guest available on the rental...

 

[VGCgroupie]

To my knowledge, the DISBoards has not received anything from Disney/DVC about our rental board. There could be several reasons for that, including the fact that the Boards are not directly involved in any of the transactions, unlike a broker, we are not middle men, we don't involve ourselves in the transactions at all. We do have a nominal charge for owner to use the Rent/Transfer board, unless they meet our posting prerequisites. Our board is basically the equivalent of running a newspaper ad. We also do not allow advertising any existing reservations for rent further than 30 days from the check-in date, unless you pay a substantial amount, up to $250, for a MAXIMUM of three pre-existing reservations to be offered outside of that 30 day check-in window during a one year period.. And unless you purchase the $250 tier, you are limited to 3 or 6 rental threads per year, that are only allowed to remain open for 1 month. The $250 tier allows 8 threads, three of which may be existing reservations outside the 30 day window, with the remaining 5 threads used as Points for Rent/Transfer type threads. The DIS Rental Board is quite restrictive, compared to other sites, and really, small potatoes to a company the size of Disney/DVC.

Yeah I dont see why a broker would get anything. This lies solely with the owners, the only time a broker should get any info on this is if the broker is the one who owns the contracts.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

As long as an owner is a guest, I see no way for DVC to have grounds to cancel it.

I suspect the way it comes out is when renters complain/talk about it to resort staff.

To my knowledge, the DISBoards has not received anything from Disney/DVC about our rental board. There could be several reasons for that, including the fact that the Boards are not directly involved in any of the transactions, unlike a broker, we are not middle men, we don't involve ourselves in the transactions at all. We do have a nominal charge for owner to use the Rent/Transfer board, unless they meet our posting prerequisites. Our board is basically the equivalent of running a newspaper ad. We also do not allow advertising any existing reservations for rent further than 30 days from the check-in date, unless you pay a substantial amount, up to $250, for a MAXIMUM of three pre-existing reservations to be offered outside of that 30 day check-in window during a one year period.. And unless you purchase the $250 tier, you are limited to 3 or 6 rental threads per year, that are only allowed to remain open for 1 month. The $250 tier allows 8 threads, three of which may be existing reservations outside the 30 day window, with the remaining 5 threads used as Points for Rent/Transfer type threads. The DIS Rental Board is quite restrictive, compared to other sites, and really, small potatoes to a company the size of Disney/DVC.

Oh, I didn’t mean I thought you would be targeted. I meant, have you given any thought to a rule limiting the bulk reservations that some of the members are doing on your boards? (Similar to what it’s being reported that DVC Resale Market is doing). I could otherwise see a situation where lots of reservations get cancelled/etc by renters who rented from some of the multi-thousand point power-renters currently using the disboard rental forum. Again, I realize it’s early days.

 

[Sandisw]

That is how it always should have been and the warnings have been on documents since day one. 1st come 1st served. They even have a way to handle it with a lottery and did use that for a year or two during what they expected to be the peak time around Christmas. I don't see it being pointed out as much recently but it is a timeshare, not a hotel, and the availability will be different and nothing guaranteed unless you actually have a guaranteed week. This is unlikely to change the availability for tough to book categories at popular times.

I agree and everything is still within DVC court.

They get to review membership and they get to determine what frequent and regular looks like….

 

[RickNJane]

I have just skimmed this thread so sorry if this has already been asked. Once this goes into effect, ie reservations being cancelled by Disney, do you think we will see an uptick in resale? I would think that the commercial DVC members would dump points once the profit is taken out.

Great info and discussion as usual!

 

[Sandisw]

I suspect the way it comes out is when renters complain/talk about it to resort staff.

Oh, I didn’t mean I thought you would be targeted. I meant, have you given any thought to a rule limiting the bulk reservations that some of the members are doing on your boards? (Similar to what it’s being reported that DVC Resale Market is doing). I could otherwise see a situation where lots of reservations get cancelled/etc by renters who rented from some of the multi-thousand point power-renters currently using the disboard rental forum. Again, I realize it’s early days.

Even so…if a renter agreed to allowing the owner to remain a guest, isn’t that on them?

Plus, in my experience, resort CMs don’t necessarily get all the DVCs in and outs.

My guess is that those who saw it mentioned are owners who are venting but in practice, I very much doubt this will become a thing.

And, it would be a good way for brokers to encourage renters to use them because they could put it out as a red flag…don’t agree to a rental where you have a guest listed who is not part of your group!!

 

[Sandisw]

I have just skimmed this thread so sorry if this has already been asked. Once this goes into effect, ie reservations being cancelled by Disney, do you think we will see an uptick in resale? I would think that the commercial DVC members would dump points once the profit is taken out.

Great info and discussion as usual!

No one knows what enforcement will look like. The website has been changed, the chat now asks you to attest to the same thing you agree to online and people have reported MS is saying the same thing.

So, it’s already in play. In terms of cancellations? Id be surprised if you see them for those that were booked prior to today…just because DVc knows the backlash for renters who are out of luck.

But, I do think you very well could see an uptick in resale contracts for owners who simply know they are in no way within bounds.

 

[fflmaster]

I personally don’t believe renting out points to cover MF and the cost of my own vacation is “personal use.” Personal use is using the points one buys for their personal vacations whether it’s just my family or also friends…USING the points, not renting them out consistently. Yes, one may rent out your points when you have an occasional need to not use them and they cannot be banked or exchanged, etc. but not to consistently cover your expenses.

I would disagree with this statement.

If I am paying the MF fees and “renting” out my excess points to cover my costs, that would absolutely be personal use.

What I believe DVC is looking at is those who use the points as a business. Maybe never using them for themselves.

 

[Brittleebee]

Side note - I just created a waitlist and there was no box to check if the waitlist comes through. Now im weirdly anxious thinking I will miss all waitlists being fulfilled until I check a box somewhere.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Will do. A commercial renter with the money to buy and rent all those points and lie about doing it is not just going to sit there and do nothing if theyre being shut down and have a way to argue it.

And Disney, with its $203B market cap and army of staff lawyers who get paid a salary regardless, not to mention outside counsel, is probably not staying awake at night worrying even about a commercial renter with thousands of points.

Bloomberg Law has reported that Disney has around 300 lawyers on staff in-house, and another 1,100 on retention. Granted, those are spread out across all aspects of their businesses, but likely mostly in entertainment and business law, so a contract battle with a few vocal “professional DVC renters” probably doesn’t even make for decent water cooler chat.