DVC Response About Ebay Commercial Sellers

[Jeremy&Susan]

Ooooo, the magic.


But if our goal is to entirely and definitively eliminate abuses of the system (by our own standards) I think we will be angry and disappointed until 2042.

Anyway, I'm enjoying my DVC and this thread.

I plan on letting this thing eat away at me and all my family trips until 2054, maybe longer if DVC opens a site that doesn't expire until later.

 

[greenban]

yes should be easy to understand, but apparantly not

Don't polish your diploma just yet....

Perhaps this scenario may be easier to understand, I'll type slowly now...( )

Two of the SSR contracts I purchased (for the extra 12 years BTW), came with the current year's points, next year's points and a 'Bonus' 100 developer points. Now, I couldn't close until about 6 months in the future (from the time of my purchase, due to the building schedule) but my developer points were immediately available, and I used them at OKW (7 month booking). These were not MORPHED points, but they also were not OKW points either. When my SSR points came in, I used some of them for BWV, again at the 7 month mark.

All, I was politely trying to debate (or present my point) was that SSRs size does have an effect, and I believe it. You may not. But the 3 of you smug posters (shoes and all) have proven my main point. Mob (as in unthinking) mentality, and attack mode replies. It's rather fun to watch, like Bucks clashing antlers to impress the does.........

Now multiply my above examples by 10,000 or so new members, and the effect is real. This is not SSR bashing, it is merely (IMO) the effect of very generous bonuses and incentives, and is probably temporary.

The main difference in posts is that you three DVC-Doctorates, *KNOW* every fact, and *KNOW* that every other Point Of View is wrong. Now that *IS* funny!

oooohhhhhh the magic is back!

-Tony

 

[TCPluto]

All, I was politely trying to debate ...

But the 3 of you smug posters (shoes and all) have proven my main point. Mob (as in unthinking) mentality, and attack mode replies.


The main difference in posts is that you three DVC-Doctorates, *KNOW* every fact, and *KNOW* that every other Point Of View is wrong. Now that *IS* funny!

-Tony

I have no idea what exactly you were responding to, but your post was exceedingly rude Tony. I hope you at least feel better, because you don't look better.

 

[greenban]

I have no idea what exactly you were responding to, but your post was exceedingly rude Tony. I hope you at least feel better, because you don't look better.

Thank you for your input. I was not going for rude, and I am sorry if that is how (and apparently it is) that I came off.

I was going for smug and sanctimonious, which is how I felt reading the replies, that stated I just don't get it, if I think that 7,000,000 new annual points *MIGHT* have some temporary effect on resort availability.

As for not looking better, <sigh>, those that have seen me, would agree....

-Tony

ETA:

Especially when a slash and hack job on my original long post, produced a quote based on two sentences taken (delibertely, I suppose) out of context.

And yes, I do feel better, but I have always admited and embraced my immaturity anyway!

 

[dianeschlicht]

Not to worry, Tony, you weren't as rude as some would think.

 

[greenban]

But adding the SSR points also added the rooms to accomodate them. Morphing points to another year does not.

Why yes they did add all those nice, new SSR rooms.

May I ask you, which resort is CONSISTENTLY the last one available for point booking when all other resorts are fully booked (points and cash)?

Let me give you a hint, it starts with S and ends with R.

So where did all those SSR points go, since the rooms 'associated' with those points are still available?

Offsite? Sure, The DCL, adventure collection, II transfers? absolutely, but so do some BCV, BWV, HHI, OKW, VB and VWL points.

But I bet (and have no way of knowing this) that the greater amount of SSR points not used at SSR went to other DVC resort stays. This is my opinion, no facts at all, freely noted.

But point morphers by their very nature want maximum profit. Why morph expensive SSR points when cheap OKW resale points are plentifully available? What is easier to resell (maybe at a profit) OKW, VB or SSR?

So, I doubt those missing SSR points were all morphed, but more likely used at other DVC resorts.

Also, (AGAIN, I MAY BE WRONG), but except for my personal Christmas, and Easter vacations, I usually book at less than 7 months, when a point is a point is a point. Morphing has no effect here. And the *VAST* majority (like 90%) of my rentees book less than 7 months in advance as well.

So, yes I *DO* get it. I also admit that these statements are just my opinion, and may be wrong.

But, I don't think you and your cohorts get it at any *REAL* level of understanding at all, and this opinion is based on my personal and anecdotal experiences.

My point (FINALLY-I know!) is that it is a shame we can't politley agree to disagree, and that your collective replies have confirmed this point to me and others.

-Tony

 

[OneMoreTry]

Not really. It did add the rooms but not at the same level of demand as some of the other resorts. Banking, borrowing, certain exceptions that DVC may make all can put more points into a use year than any given resort can accommodate or even than the entire system can accommodate. Even morphed points have a home that will be available at some point for members to use. They are not extra points to the system even if they end up being extra points to a given resort. And it's been a while since I've stated that it is my opinion that DVC expects, and even plans, for a certain amount of lost points.

1. The accomodations are there nevertheless, even if they are not wanted. So we need to book as far in advance as possible. Use the 11month window (see #2 below). Buy where we want to stay. Thank heavens for the wait list.

2. Banked and borrowed points retain the original resort and do not allow for unfair utilization of the 11month window. Morphed points, as I understand it, provide unfair access to the 11month window, which cheats genuine resort owners.

3. DVC retains the right to halt banking/borrowing if too many points accumulate in a given year. They can track those points to prevent that from happening.

4. It seems to me that morphed points could theoretically drain one year -- leaving too many open rooms with too few points to book them. And then overload another year with points. Although the current effect of this is probably minimal as you point out, it could make the accountants nervous, especially if DVC is noticing a trend.

 

[OneMoreTry]

And the *VAST* majority (like 90%) of my rentees book less than 7 months in advance as well.....

So, yes I *DO* get it. I also admit that these statements are just my opinion, and may be wrong.

But, I don't think you and your cohorts get it at any *REAL* level of understanding at all, and this opinion is based on my personal and anecdotal experiences.

My point (FINALLY-I know!) is that it is a shame we can't politley agree to disagree, and that your collective replies have confirmed this point to me and others.

-Tony

I don't think you have to justify anything. I realize that I have limited understanding of the system. And even less about how you personally use your points. I'm not snooping around trying to find out who's buying and transerrring and morphing and selling.


This has nothing to do with you personally:My only real complaint would be with any unfair use of the 11 month window and how that might wrongly affect availability at OKW -- esp a GV.

 

[jdg345]

Don't polish your diploma just yet....

Perhaps this scenario may be easier to understand, I'll type slowly now...( )

Two of the SSR contracts I purchased (for the extra 12 years BTW), came with the current year's points, next year's points and a 'Bonus' 100 developer points. Now, I couldn't close until about 6 months in the future (from the time of my purchase, due to the building schedule) but my developer points were immediately available, and I used them at OKW (7 month booking). These were not MORPHED points, but they also were not OKW points either. When my SSR points came in, I used some of them for BWV, again at the 7 month mark.

All, I was politely trying to debate (or present my point) was that SSRs size does have an effect, and I believe it. You may not. But the 3 of you smug posters (shoes and all) have proven my main point. Mob (as in unthinking) mentality, and attack mode replies. It's rather fun to watch, like Bucks clashing antlers to impress the does.........

Now multiply my above examples by 10,000 or so new members, and the effect is real. This is not SSR bashing, it is merely (IMO) the effect of very generous bonuses and incentives, and is probably temporary.

The main difference in posts is that you three DVC-Doctorates, *KNOW* every fact, and *KNOW* that every other Point Of View is wrong. Now that *IS* funny!

oooohhhhhh the magic is back!

-Tony

I see where you're coming from ... but I think there are probably two schools of thought here ... I could be wrong, but I think the general consensus is something along the lines of:

(1) SSR is not impacting at the 11 month window unless point morphing is taken into account -- and why someone would want to morph SSR points when OKW or VB or HHI points are much much much much cheaper ... I dunno ...

(2) SSR is definitely impacting at the 7 month window because now all those points are available for any DVC.

JMO ...

 

[Groucho]

Greenban: Last time I checked, this thread was discussing commercial renters and their abuse of their system. I don't think point morphing nor SSR have anything to do with the topic at hand.

Note that our main subject had many thousands of Beach Club and Boardwalk points, and relatively few anywhere else. With those points, there's no NEED to morph points. And SSR doesn't even enter into it.

As for resort availability - of COURSE, SSR is the last one to fill up. It's easily the largest resort. To have it fill up faster than the significantly smaller BCV, BWV, or VWL, it would not just have to be as popular as them, but much, much more popular. I think it's past time to put the "SSR members want to stay anywhere but" myth to rest (just look at all the happy trip reports.)

Back to point morphing, I don't think that the heavy-duty commercial renters are interested in doing the amount of work necessary to consistently beg, borrow, or steal points from other members to pump up their collection of points. It's easier just to buy another resale contract, even if it's more expensive - but it'll be available for decades, not for one single year. It's more likely that morphing is done on a relatively small scale. Again, the sheer number of points controlled by just a few commercial renters clearly demonstrates just why key weeks at especially BCV and BWV have been so difficult to get.

Dean: If you want to follow the POS by the letter, we could again point out that they tell you not to transfer any points for money... and eBay is an easy way to prove that just that is being done. But they probably haven't gone that route to avoid angry DVCers afraid that they won't be able to occasionally rent or transfer excess points occasionally, even if that isn't DVC's intention.

In other news... I just checked eBay out of curiousity, and SMW's still only listing non-DVC properties, but Disdvcer is still going at it. There do seem to be fewer overall, though... And Wechsler's "funsavervacationhomes" is back up, while "talkaboutdisney" is now "parked". Oh, and **** *****, over at atimeshare, removed the link to "talkabout disney". We'll see where they pop up next...

 

[OneMoreTry]

Greenban: Last time I checked, this thread was discussing commercial renters and their abuse of their system. I don't think point morphing nor SSR have anything to do with the topic at hand.

...

1. I don't have any problem with an increased demand for accomodations at the 7 month window. That's part of the system we all accept -- including all the new SSR points. But I think it's unfair for someone to own at a popular resort (Lord help any future CRV owners) and have someone morphing into their 11 month by transferring to a 25 point CRV contract.

2. Unless I"m misunderstanding something I don't see how the original purchase price of a point affects attractiveness for the morphing process. As I understand, entrepreneurs buy "distressed points" and have them transferred and reassigned to accounts at more popular resorts. The appeal of the "distressed" points is not the original price that an owner paid (whether $100 pp at SSR or $60 pp at HHI) but the market price they are going for at the time. It's my impression that (before the current enforcements were in place) I could potentially find near-expiration SSR points at $5per point and have them transferred and reassigned to a small BCV account, then bank and then book at the 11month window for the following year for BCV. Is that not correct?

 

[Dean]

So, your position is that the POS cannot be silent on any aspect of the reservation system and its operation? Does it specify anything about how the wait list will be conducted? Does it specify that the wait list will be run once a day? Does it specify the hours of MS? Does it specify what is required to be provided by the member in terms of information in order to make a reservation? Does it specify whether the MS number will be a toll free number?

There is nothing in the POS that indicates that a change in name on a reservation can be made. Therefore, the right to do so is not guaranteed by the POS, and it certainly in not guaranteed by statute (many hotels require cancellation rather than a change in names on a reservation, and I doubt that any condominium or timeshare statute has otherwise addressed this point). I believe that DVD is entitled to design any reservation system they choose that is true to what IS promised in the POS. This change, I don't believe, would be outside those parameters.

I disagree with your stance. The wording in the POS would have to ALLOW the actions noted or be changed. The wording regarding a wait list would not preclude the actions you speak of, the wording in the POS would not support what you suggest for transfers at least the last ones we've seen. What they could do would be to require changes that affected everyone. Things like any changes require a cancellation and rebooking, or a fee to make changes or even a fee for multiple reservations. Or they could institute a minimum stay up to 5 days. I think what most people are doing who feel in the way you do is they look at the change, which they want, and look for specifics in the POS that would specifically say you can do multiple transers. You actually have to do so the other way. The way these type of contractual situations are handled, and that includes the statutes, is you have to look at the entire document and look for several things. One is the intent of the document which is to govern various aspects of the advertising, sale and management of a timeshare. Then you have to look at a specific issue and see if there is any direct wording that specifies those aspects related to that subject. If not, you have to take a specific position and see if it's allowed within first the state laws including 721 & 718 and if it is, is it allowed within the wording of the POS, Articles of Incorporation, By-Laws or Declaration of Condominium. I don't believe one can take the POS from 2003 to the last one we've seen reported in 2006 and justify a limit of one transfer per year. The only reason many are buying it is that's the way it was listed for a long time and many didn't even know it had changed in 2003. One could take the old wording and clearly say it meant one in or one out. One could not do the same for the new wording we've been discussing and in this situation it would have to be a clear mandate to take that stance, IMO of course.

Many times these legal issues are at conflict with each other and in the case where the legal intent is not supported by the laws in place, you have to go for a change in the law. That was a never ending battle when I worked with the Midwives Council. The lawyers would tell us we didn't have the statutory authority for a certain rule even though it was clearly within the intent of the law and in the best interest of the citizens of the state of FL.

 

[Dean]

Dean: If you want to follow the POS by the letter, we could again point out that they tell you not to transfer any points for money... and eBay is an easy way to prove that just that is being done. But they probably haven't gone that route to avoid angry DVCers afraid that they won't be able to occasionally rent or transfer excess points occasionally, even if that isn't DVC's intention.

And that would be fine. At least there would be clear documentation and rule support for that action. Then the only question is whether they could legally take that stance. I go back on forth on that issue but I'm inclined to think they can as long as they're not using that method for the rentals through CRO. No one said these weren't rules that couldn't be changed though I did question HOW they could be legally changed.

 

[greenban]

I don't think you have to justify anything. I realize that I have limited understanding of the system. And even less about how you personally use your points. I'm not snooping around trying to find out who's buying and transerrring and morphing and selling.

[snip].....EMPHASIS ADDED....
This has nothing to do with you personally:My only real complaint would be with any unfair use of the 11 month window and how that might wrongly affect availability at OKW -- esp a GV.....[/snip]

And here we agree 100%. I also agree 100% with your points about banking morphed points, creating a future 'overload' and leaving a current year 'vacuum'!

I don't think you are snooping, and even if you were, if you look up my prior posts (ignoring the sarcastic ones.......) I'm usually pretty open about what I do do, and don't do.

I just prefer we all play nice, like our last two posts to each other!

Peace,

-Tony

 

[Dean]

1. The accomodations are there nevertheless, even if they are not wanted. So we need to book as far in advance as possible. Use the 11month window (see #2 below). Buy where we want to stay. Thank heavens for the wait list.

2. Banked and borrowed points retain the original resort and do not allow for unfair utilization of the 11month window. Morphed points, as I understand it, provide unfair access to the 11month window, which cheats genuine resort owners.

3. DVC retains the right to halt banking/borrowing if too many points accumulate in a given year. They can track those points to prevent that from happening.

4. It seems to me that morphed points could theoretically drain one year -- leaving too many open rooms with too few points to book them. And then overload another year with points. Although the current effect of this is probably minimal as you point out, it could make the accountants nervous, especially if DVC is noticing a trend.

No argument, everything you say is true. No one has defended morphing points though some of us have pointed out that it is truly Disney doing and not the members, they can do nothing if not allowed by DVC. DVC should find a way to fix it directly and correctly. Not play around with other issues they feel MAY have the same corrective effect or at least balance it out. But everything you say of banked and borrowed points is or at least should be true about morphed points. But even if not, they have to come from somewhere and go somewhere. So for any time that gets extra points (morphed, banked, ,borrowed, etc) there is another time that lost those points. I do realize that a morphed points may ultimately have a longer shelf life and any home resort issues are additive to the banked and borrowed points, and i could see that argument but even then, they can only be used once. So assuming they are not going to be lost points, I think it's essentially a wash.

 

[waltfan1957]

Don't polish your diploma just yet....

Perhaps this scenario may be easier to understand, I'll type slowly now...( )

Two of the SSR contracts I purchased (for the extra 12 years BTW), came with the current year's points, next year's points and a 'Bonus' 100 developer points. Now, I couldn't close until about 6 months in the future (from the time of my purchase, due to the building schedule) but my developer points were immediately available, and I used them at OKW (7 month booking). These were not MORPHED points, but they also were not OKW points either. When my SSR points came in, I used some of them for BWV, again at the 7 month mark.

All, I was politely trying to debate (or present my point) was that SSRs size does have an effect, and I believe it. You may not. But the 3 of you smug posters (shoes and all) have proven my main point. Mob (as in unthinking) mentality, and attack mode replies. It's rather fun to watch, like Bucks clashing antlers to impress the does.........

Now multiply my above examples by 10,000 or so new members, and the effect is real. This is not SSR bashing, it is merely (IMO) the effect of very generous bonuses and incentives, and is probably temporary.

The main difference in posts is that you three DVC-Doctorates, *KNOW* every fact, and *KNOW* that every other Point Of View is wrong. Now that *IS* funny!

oooohhhhhh the magic is back!

-Tony

Not even claiming to be as clever as you or even going to write in capitals you seem to have totally missed the point people are moaning about not getting their home resort before the 7 month window so what you are ranting on about I am not sure but if it makes you feel big carry on

 

[keys2kingdom]

Not even claiming to be as clever as you or even going to write in capitals you seem to have totally missed the point people are moaning about not getting their home resort before the 7 month window so what you are ranting on about I am not sure but if it makes you feel big carry on

Dude you're grinding your axe on some pretty well established members. First Beca and now Tony. Way to make friends and influence people!

 

[Deb & Bill]

Dude you're grinding your axe on some pretty well established members. First Beca and now Tony. Way to make friends and influence people!

Maybe so, Keys, but even the long time members can sometimes be wrong.

 

[2Princes2Princesses]

I have to throw my hat in the ring here about something Tony said.

He mentioned that SSR does have more of an effect than the morphed points once the 7-month window has passed. I agree.

In the case of people not being able to book at 11 mos, obviously the morphed points would come into play, but once the 7-month window has passed, morphing is a moot point, since it is not necessary.

I bought at SSR because I love it. Alot of other SSR owners love it and want to stay there.

BUT, something noone has taken into account. Fine, some SSR owners bought there to stay elsewhere. The rest of us defend ourselves by saying, no we love SSR and are happy to stay there. Which is true. However, as a new DVC member, I would like to try the other resorts. As I am sure, MANY SSR owners do. While I would be happy to never stay anywhere else, I would like to do it once.

Now, considering a whole buttload of SSR owners are new DVC owners as well, this is most certainly going to create more of a load on the other resorts while the SSR owners "try" them all once. KWIM???

As the new SSR owners make their rounds and either:
a. Buy an addon at another resort if they find a resort they absolutely love.
or
b. get the DVC tour out of their system and go back to their home resort,
then hopefully, this will make booking at the smaller resorts easier after the 7-month window.

I don't think Tony was SSR bashing or even belittling the issue of point morphing. It IS a problem, but after the 7-month window, it is not the problem anymore.

I love SSR. I am the LAST person on here who would bash it or its owners. But like I said, even if every SSR owner only wanted to try each other resort for a couple of days here and there, it is going to be a big demand for the other resorts for the first years.

 

[diznyfanatic]

Tony, I have a stupid question as I have never heard of Developer points before as we purchased sold out resorts.

Let's say your new SSR contract was for 100 points. So, with your previous year's bonus points and the developer points, you received 300 points, is that correct?

Were you able to immediately book reservations using all 300 points or just the 100 Developer points?