DVC Response About Ebay Commercial Sellers

[OneMoreTry]

Yes, but that doesn't make sense, because in both examples listed above (mine and jennyobenny), the MOST popular resort for renters was OKW.

I think the crux of the matter is the impact on owners. Since OKW is so large a given number of commercial rentals won't affect the owners as much.

 

[twinklebug]

2 cents:

I rented our reservation over at VWL last week through a member here. But before finding the owner here, I contacted one of the eBay folk who had a listing I was interested in. I wanted to know if they were an owner or going through a third party.

We exchanged a couple messages when I got one back apologizing that Disney had eBay yanked their listings and was cancelling all of their reservations, both sold and unsold as well as threatening them with legal action. I have never read such a frantic message in all my life.

One of the many reasons why I will be buying into DVC... control of my own reservation... priceless.

 

[Anjelica]

2 cents:

I rented our reservation over at VWL last week through a member here. But before finding the owner here, I contacted one of the eBay folk who had a listing I was interested in. I wanted to know if they were an owner or going through a third party.

We exchanged a couple messages when I got one back apologizing that Disney had eBay yanked their listings and was cancelling all of their reservations, both sold and unsold as well as threatening them with legal action. I have never read such a frantic message in all my life.

One of the many reasons why I will be buying into DVC... control of my own reservation... priceless.

This may be the first time I have actually heard of someone admitting that Disney had their Ebay auctions yanked (granted getting it second hand) but still quite interesting.

 

[Beca]

2 cents:
We exchanged a couple messages when I got one back apologizing that Disney had eBay yanked their listings and was cancelling all of their reservations, both sold and unsold as well as threatening them with legal action. I have never read such a frantic message in all my life.

.

This would be one of the actions taken on an "individual basis" that I have been "alluding" to, but could not speak of. The poster who posted on another thread that they had spoken to Disney legal, and Disney legal said they didn't know what steps would be taken against individuals was told incorrectly.

Let's just say that with these "individuals", the "punishment will fit the crime". That is what I was told.

 

[minnie61650]

2 cents:

I rented our reservation over at VWL last week through a member here. But before finding the owner here, I contacted one of the eBay folk who had a listing I was interested in. I wanted to know if they were an owner or going through a third party.

We exchanged a couple messages when I got one back apologizing that Disney had eBay yanked their listings and was cancelling all of their reservations, both sold and unsold as well as threatening them with legal action. I have never read such a frantic message in all my life.

One of the many reasons why I will be buying into DVC... control of my own reservation... priceless.

Thanks for the info.
I am very happy to hear that ebay and/or DVC is finally taking action against those with multiple postings on ebay.

 

[Beca]

I think the crux of the matter is the impact on owners. Since OKW is so large a given number of commercial rentals won't affect the owners as much.

However, this DOES throw into question the theory that all commercial renters are "morphing" points into BCV/BWV/VWL. It also could show that commercial renters are renting the cheaper resorts first. This COULD mean that those who are blaming renters, rather than acknowledging that the points entering the system as a result of SSR, are blaming individuals instead of the system that DVC designed, approved, and implemented.

 

[minnie61650]

However, this DOES throw into question the theory that all commercial renters are "morphing" points into BCV/BWV/VWL. It also could show that commercial renters are renting the cheaper resorts first. This COULD mean that those who are blaming renters, rather than acknowledging that the points entering the system as a result of SSR, are blaming individuals instead of the system that DVC designed, approved, and implemented.

I for one do not care that much about the point "morphing." I care about the fact that commercial renters are booking many rooms to rent for profit.

That means there will be less rooms for DVC members to book.

 

[diznyfanatic]

From my point of view, there were three issues that I felt were wrong and needed immediate correction:

- Commercial renters who engage in point morphing to gain an unfair home resort advantage over legitimate resort owners

- Commercial renters who routinely engage in snatching up PRIME weeks on speculation with the sole intent of reselling those reservations on eBay or elsewhere

- Disney's current inability to properly track transferred points

I don't have a problem with people who rent points, even commercially, and book reservations as the points are purchased.

Heck, I was one of those renters as we used it as an opportunity to check out DVC first hand and it was such a great experience, we came home and purchased.

It's the abuse that I take issue with.

 

[Beca]

I for one do not care that much about the point "morphing." I care about the fact that commercial renters are booking many rooms to rent for profit.

That means there will be less rooms for DVC members to book.

However, if commercial renters are renting from a stash of points that they OWN, then those points are actually theirs to do with as they wish. This would be especially true if morphing points was not an issue with you....only renting.

And, if a person is not transferring in lots of points to "morph", but rather is renting out their annual allotment of points each year, Disney legal has stated that they are not concerned with that, and will be taking no action against these people. If BWV points are legitimately BWV points, and DVC has no limits on how many rooms can be reserved by one person (a person with 3000 points has been promised they can use those 3000 points however they see fit), then how is renting any different from any other owner using his/her points?

I understand "emotionally" how this makes you mad....but, I am asking from a logistic point of view...how are they different?

 

[minnie61650]

However, if commercial renters are renting from a stash of points that they OWN, then those points are actually theirs to do with as they wish. This would be especially true if morphing points was not an issue with you....only renting.

And, if a person is not transferring in lots of points to "morph", but rather is renting out their annual allotment of points each year, Disney legal has stated that they are not concerned with that, and will be taking no action against these people. If BWV points are legitimately BWV points, and DVC has no limits on how many rooms can be reserved by one person (a person with 3000 points has been promised they can use those 3000 points however they see fit), then how is renting any different from any other owner using his/her points?

I understand "emotionally" how this makes you mad....but, I am asking from a logistic point of view...how are they different?

The August email stated:

"To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered."


I am not sure Disney legal is not concerned about renters using a large stash of points that they own.

Time will tell.

 

[Beca]

The August email stated:

"To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered."


I am not sure Disney legal is not concerned about renters using a large stash of points that they own.

Time will tell.

And, here's a post by someone who called and spoke to Disney legal hoping to get more clarification of what they meant by that statement:

"Those answers, I felt, needed to come from the source and not from specualtion and heresay. With that in mind, I contacted MS and asked to speak with someone in DVC legal about the recent notifications about renting/transfers. It took 5 phone calls and the run aroud to finally get to someone in legal willing to answer all my questions. Here goes what I was told:

First let me say how impressed I was with this gentleman. He was patient, kind, and helpful. He took my concerns seriously and gave me direct and honest answers to my questions. I asked about the email notifications about the transfer limit and about the "pattern of renting for profit" statements. I also told him up front that I do rent my points. At which point he said "lets access your account and see what type of patterns you have." This made me extremely nervous but I agreed, giving him my DVC number. We went through each transaction since my join date in 1992. I explained each one in detail and was very candid with him. He imediuately at the end of this said "there is nothing wrong with how you are using your membership." Boy was I relieved! I had zero transfers and all transactions where made with MY points.

He then went on to clearly state what DVC is looking for. He told me there are members doing HUNDREDS of transfers each year. They then book up prime weeks limiting availability for members who own all of there points. OWNING the points seemed to be the main focus here. If you rent ressies with your OWN points you have nothing to worry about. Renting is clearly allowed according to the POS was the way he put it. He stated that a member booking with there own points within the appropriate booking windows has nothing to worry about. Members looking to scoop up points and re-rent have a problem. Basically he said I could rent out ALL of my points without a problem. DVC cannot stop that and has no intentions of doing so. Now he said a DVC owner with 500 points that comes up with 5000 points to rent through transfers and the like should be worried. He stated the transfer limits should greatly reduce this problem.

To sum up, I was very happy with what I heard from DVC legal. Basically you can do whatever you wish, within the rules, with your points. You can book peak weeks, rent them all out, whatever. You can also use them all yourself or give them away. DVC does not care what you do with YOUR points. What they do care about is the "commercial renter" creating huge point allotments through transfers and the like and then re-renting them at a profit. He stated that there are renters out there that have hit the 100,000 point total in a given use year. It was simply getting out of control so DVC had to do something. Point "morphing" was something he didn't want to go into by the way. He claimed he didn't know much about that and that wasn't part of the crack down."

Once again, another example of rules "double-talk" by DVC.

 

[minnie61650]

And, here's a post by someone who called and spoke to Disney legal hoping to get more clarification of what they meant by that statement:

"Those answers, I felt, needed to come from the source and not from specualtion and heresay. With that in mind, I contacted MS and asked to speak with someone in DVC legal about the recent notifications about renting/transfers. It took 5 phone calls and the run aroud to finally get to someone in legal willing to answer all my questions. Here goes what I was told:

First let me say how impressed I was with this gentleman. He was patient, kind, and helpful. He took my concerns seriously and gave me direct and honest answers to my questions. I asked about the email notifications about the transfer limit and about the "pattern of renting for profit" statements. I also told him up front that I do rent my points. At which point he said "lets access your account and see what type of patterns you have." This made me extremely nervous but I agreed, giving him my DVC number. We went through each transaction since my join date in 1992. I explained each one in detail and was very candid with him. He imediuately at the end of this said "there is nothing wrong with how you are using your membership." Boy was I relieved! I had zero transfers and all transactions where made with MY points.

He then went on to clearly state what DVC is looking for. He told me there are members doing HUNDREDS of transfers each year. They then book up prime weeks limiting availability for members who own all of there points. OWNING the points seemed to be the main focus here. If you rent ressies with your OWN points you have nothing to worry about. Renting is clearly allowed according to the POS was the way he put it. He stated that a member booking with there own points within the appropriate booking windows has nothing to worry about. Members looking to scoop up points and re-rent have a problem. Basically he said I could rent out ALL of my points without a problem. DVC cannot stop that and has no intentions of doing so. Now he said a DVC owner with 500 points that comes up with 5000 points to rent through transfers and the like should be worried. He stated the transfer limits should greatly reduce this problem.

To sum up, I was very happy with what I heard from DVC legal. Basically you can do whatever you wish, within the rules, with your points. You can book peak weeks, rent them all out, whatever. You can also use them all yourself or give them away. DVC does not care what you do with YOUR points. What they do care about is the "commercial renter" creating huge point allotments through transfers and the like and then re-renting them at a profit. He stated that there are renters out there that have hit the 100,000 point total in a given use year. It was simply getting out of control so DVC had to do something. Point "morphing" was something he didn't want to go into by the way. He claimed he didn't know much about that and that wasn't part of the crack down."

Once again, another example of rules "double-talk" by DVC.

I read that post on the other thread and to tell you the truth I was a bit skeptical.

Not about the poster per say but about how knowledgeable the person at Disney legal was.
----------------------------------------------
(I know this example is way different than speaking to Disney legal.)but----

I formed the FAQ thread for the Family Suites at All Music.

When I call CRO with a question ie: One guest posted the Suite he was in did NOT have a queen size or finding out if there is an extra fee for more than two adults in suite.

I call back to verify my info at least 3 times because I will often get conflicting replies. The CM's are not always that knowledgeable.
---------------------------------------------
Now someone working at legal might be up to date on everything regarding
the August email than again they might not be.

 

[disneygrandma]

I've read all the views on this post, in fact I spend entirely too much time reading what is posted on the DIS board. Anyway, what twinklebug wrote about ebay yanking the auctions for one member, got me wondering. Who decides if the auction should be pulled? Disney or ebay? Is it going to be all or nothing? How & who will make the decision? Ebay would have no way of knowing who is entitled under DVC rules to sell a reservation. Does that mean they will not allow ANY future listings, to be on the safe side? Or maybe they will pick a number, say 3 other times this seller had an ebay auction for a DVC trip, so no more. If Disney decides, is it because the seller used transferred points to make the ressie? If smw was the one who had her auctions yanked, that probably wasn't the case. She/they owned so many points, that all these auctions could have been with her personal points.

I think this is a sad situation. We were so excited to finally buy in to DVC, and now all this controversy.........changing rules, enforcing old rules, etc. I think it's wrong for a member to make reservations at prime times for the sole purpose of selling them for a profit. In this instance, yes, I do think it is different than the commercial renters using these reservations for themselves. Many of these big players have enough points that will equal several smaller DVC members. Would these individual members all go to WDW during that same prime time? My guess would be NO. But by reserving these prime times at the 11 month mark, they have prevented other members from going. That is unless they wanted to buy the reservations that are for sale.

As far as the sellers who rent points for reservations not yet made, for those I would say there isn't a difference between the big guys using them for themselves, or selling. That's because these reservations would be made based upon the dates the buyers want, and what would be available.

Do I think it's OK to rent points occasionally? Yes. Do I think people should buy more points than what they plan to personally use, and do this to make a profit. NO. I've read many posts on this board that condemn renting and transferring. These posters have emphatically stated that they NEVER would ever rent their points. They haven't in the past, and they don't plan to do it in the future. However, the future is a funny thing. What if a medical reason would prevent you from using your points? What then? Medical problems are not planned, nor expected, but unfortunately they do happen. This would be one reason that a member could not use their points. Why lose them, when they could be rented or transferred.

Maybe you're planning a one-time big family trip that required more points than you own. I see nothing wrong with being able to transfer them in order to make reservations for everyone planning to come on the trip. However, now there is only 1 transfer allowed per year. There are times when 1 transfer isn't going to be enough, either in or out. Has this selling on ebay brought about this change in transfers? Yes, I did say change, because our POS does not have a limit. It only restricts transfers to one way during a use year.

I wish Disney would deal with the big players/commercial renters, without restricting the average DVC member and preventing them from possibly making 2 or 3 transfers in a use year, same direction of course. Or maybe even sell their points on ebay if they can't personally use them. The big players should be handled differently than the average DVC members who bought in to DVC for their personal use.

 

[minnie61650]

I would also like to point out the thread about Disney legal was posted by Dumbo71 who has all of 21 posts.

From this thread:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1204087&referrerid=93883&highlight=

Hey guys!..............

With all the speculation going on about renting/transfers and then with the thread by Jay Foster I felt I needed some peace of mind and some answers.
I hope this helps clear up things a little........... It sure helped me hearing it from the source as oposed to all the speculations here. Seems most owners will be unaffected by this enforcement.

Here is another post by Dumbo71 which is taken from this thread.

Just curious how you know that DVC had them removed? Who did you speak with at DVC?

DVC had better hope that those auctions removed were in fact "commercial renters." Renting IS and has always been allowed. If in fact it isn't allowed then this board should shut down the Rent/Trade board. I don't see that happening.

I'm still not buying that YOUR email got them removed. In fact I don't believe they were removed. As it stands there is still a listing there for Saratoga Springs Resort and I'd bet others as well. Maybe they accepted an offer?

DVC doesn't want to open this can of worms. They would lose big time if it went to court. I will continue to rent points until the time comes that I can use them all myself. I double dare DVC to do anything about it. If they do I'll sell immediately as well as take legal action. They knew full well I would rent a large portion of my points and it was stated that it was clearly allowed.

The transfer change I fully support. Points changing home resort status is simply wrong. Renting is not.

To which Jay replied:

I certainly have no reason to lie. I'm trying to think of a motive for lying. . .Uhhhh. . .None thought of so far. Moreover, I have the EXACT LINK for the auction and it was REMOVED PER EBAY.

In addition, I also used the same search terms I used the other day and NONE, I repeat NONE of the auctions I saw showed up.

Again, as I said in the previous message, you are certainly going to find different auctions by using different search terms. It is up to the members to provide the links to DVC and let them know we do not appreciate the commercial renting.

Dumbo71 replied saying:

Whether you are lying is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you failed to answer my question. Who did you speak with at DVC? Who exactly is in charge of this "crack down on commercial renters"?

As soon as I read your post I checked Ebay. Nothing has been removed that I can see. There are tons of listings there as others have stated. Many listings from the same owner. Why weren't they removed?

I have to say, it is business as usual, just like Rinkwide stated. Short of calling you a liar, I just don't quite believe this post or your follow up posts.

Maybe you could post a copy of the email to DVC or the link to the Ebay auction you claim was removed. Lets hear the response from DVC and what was stated.

Anybody else skeptical about this? Sorry if this offends but I need a little more evidence.

BTW Dumbo71 has not posted since she/he started that thread. Dumbo 71
posted the thread at 8:04 AM (my time) on August 23.2006. He/she went off line at
8:41AM (my time) the same day. Dumbo71 never went back online to see the replies to his/her thread.

 

[Anjelica]

And, here's a post by someone who called and spoke to Disney legal hoping to get more clarification of what they meant by that statement:

"Those answers, I felt, needed to come from the source and not from specualtion and heresay. With that in mind, I contacted MS and asked to speak with ..................

Once again, another example of rules "double-talk" by DVC.

I read through that thread as well as participated in some of the discussion. My biggest concern with what was said was that no one heard it first hand other than the poster (now I am not implying the poster lied at all) but unless we are there for the conversation we really don't know if the correct information was completely and accurately relayed to us. We don't know the tone of the coversation nor whether the person they were speaking to had the correct credentials to make any or all of the statements.

I guess bottomline - for a major "change" of enforcement of rules it really is better to get it in writing from DVC so there is no room for mis-interpretation (or at least we would hope not). For something that folks consider a major dealio - its hard to rely solely on the he said/she said factor.

 

[jennybobenny]

Missed this thread the first time around:

"Greenban poll: Do you rent DVC points?"
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1180246&page=1&pp=15

Very interesting reading. And a few great posts by DBBN. It also brings up the topic of 'commercial' vs 'retirement' renters...

On a side note, in post #55 Disneyrsh makes a comment, but after being 'outed' by rinkwide in post #57 (even provides a link to her ebay auction) she goes back and edits all of her previous posts - including those in this thread. Curious about Disneyrsh? In post #61 the last comment made by Prez may refresh your memory.

 

[minnie61650]

Missed this thread the first time around:

"Greenban poll: Do you rent DVC points?"
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1180246&page=1&pp=15

Very interesting reading. And a few great posts by DBBN. It also brings up the topic of 'commercial' vs 'retirement' renters...

On a side note, in post #55 Disneyrsh makes a comment, but after being 'outed' by rinkwide in post #57 (even provides a link to her ebay auction) she goes back and edits all of her previous posts - including those in this thread. Curious about Disneyrsh? In post #61 the last comment made by Prez may refresh your memory.

I did a little more snooping and found out one her threads on the rent trade board was closed.
*Note-- Not sure there is a connection but ----
They (whoever they are) also closed a few of mushpuple's rent/trade threads before she stated editing her posts.

 

[Sammie]

And, here's a post by someone who called and spoke to Disney legal hoping to get more clarification of what they meant by that statement:

"Those answers, I felt, needed to come from the source and not from specualtion and heresay. With that in mind, I contacted MS and asked to speak with someone in DVC legal about the recent notifications about renting/transfers. It took 5 phone calls and the run aroud to finally get to someone in legal willing to answer all my questions. Here goes what I was told:

First let me say how impressed I was with this gentleman. He was patient, kind, and helpful. He took my concerns seriously and gave me direct and honest answers to my questions. I asked about the email notifications about the transfer limit and about the "pattern of renting for profit" statements. I also told him up front that I do rent my points. At which point he said "lets access your account and see what type of patterns you have." This made me extremely nervous but I agreed, giving him my DVC number. We went through each transaction since my join date in 1992. I explained each one in detail and was very candid with him. He imediuately at the end of this said "there is nothing wrong with how you are using your membership." Boy was I relieved! I had zero transfers and all transactions where made with MY points.

He then went on to clearly state what DVC is looking for. He told me there are members doing HUNDREDS of transfers each year. They then book up prime weeks limiting availability for members who own all of there points. OWNING the points seemed to be the main focus here. If you rent ressies with your OWN points you have nothing to worry about. Renting is clearly allowed according to the POS was the way he put it. He stated that a member booking with there own points within the appropriate booking windows has nothing to worry about. Members looking to scoop up points and re-rent have a problem. Basically he said I could rent out ALL of my points without a problem. DVC cannot stop that and has no intentions of doing so. Now he said a DVC owner with 500 points that comes up with 5000 points to rent through transfers and the like should be worried. He stated the transfer limits should greatly reduce this problem.

To sum up, I was very happy with what I heard from DVC legal. Basically you can do whatever you wish, within the rules, with your points. You can book peak weeks, rent them all out, whatever. You can also use them all yourself or give them away. DVC does not care what you do with YOUR points. What they do care about is the "commercial renter" creating huge point allotments through transfers and the like and then re-renting them at a profit. He stated that there are renters out there that have hit the 100,000 point total in a given use year. It was simply getting out of control so DVC had to do something. Point "morphing" was something he didn't want to go into by the way. He claimed he didn't know much about that and that wasn't part of the crack down."

Once again, another example of rules "double-talk" by DVC.

We do not know what was said in this conversation, as it is all hearsay. I have sent this person a PM asking for additional info and never got a reply. I have also not seen this person back on these forums since this post. I would take it with a grain of salt.

 

[OneMoreTry]

2 cents:

I rented our reservation over at VWL last week through a member here. But before finding the owner here, I contacted one of the eBay folk who had a listing I was interested in. I wanted to know if they were an owner or going through a third party.

We exchanged a couple messages when I got one back apologizing that Disney had eBay yanked their listings and was cancelling all of their reservations, both sold and unsold as well as threatening them with legal action. I have never read such a frantic message in all my life.

One of the many reasons why I will be buying into DVC... control of my own reservation... priceless.

Can anyone confirm this?

 

[OneMoreTry]

However, this DOES throw into question the theory that all commercial renters are "morphing" points into BCV/BWV/VWL. It also could show that commercial renters are renting the cheaper resorts first. This COULD mean that those who are blaming renters, rather than acknowledging that the points entering the system as a result of SSR, are blaming individuals instead of the system that DVC designed, approved, and implemented.

Isn't that like saying speeding and wreckless driving are the fault of the Highway Patrol for allowing so many cars on the road? Or the fault of the highway dept for building so many on ramps? More cars on the road means more speeders. It's the SPEEDERS who choose to speed and they know they are breaking the law.

More points means more people around who can use them inappropriately. We can't blame DVC.

I certainly don't blame DVC for building more resorts and the fact that that comes with more points to compete for more popular resorts. Maybe some are kicking themselves for not "buying where they want to stay."

Contemporary and AKL DVC units will RELIEVE some of the pressure on the other more popular stays. So stay tuned.