DVC Response About Ebay Commercial Sellers
- Thread starter Jay Foster
- Start date
Beca
Apparently, we all have more money than brains!!!
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OneMoreTry said:
I think you are correct, however....I have two questions for you.
1) Why do you (and others) assume that all commercial renters are morphing to BCV/VWL/BWV? Unless they are getting a standard view at BWV, those are the MOST expensive rooms on property. It would seem to me that a commercial renter could make more money "morphing" those points to SSR or OKW. For an owner, saving a few points is just saving a "few" points. However, to a commercial renter...saving a few points here, and a few points there adds up to a few more ROOMS they can sell and make $$$$ off of. IMO, I would think commercial renters would be more interested in OKW and SSR, and owners, and owners who advertise points for rent on the dis would be more interested in the others.
2) How many $5 points are there (or, were there) on the market? Not that many? In all my years on the dis, I have never been able to "catch" distressed points for sale on the rent/trade board. I've seen a few posts, but those were gone pretty quickly. So, what do you think would be the ratio of "distressed points" being transferred to commercial renters would be, over the number of points entering the system from SSR? I have a feeling we're talking about a very small number here.
Just my 2 cents,
Beca
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Beca said:
Maybe the reason some of us " assume" that commercial renters are morphing to BCV/VWL/BWV quite often is the fact that these seem to be resorts of choice when listing DVC's for rent on ebay.* Note the resorts of choice for the sold out dates and holiday weeks.
jennybobenny listed some ebay auctions in this thread.
Here are some smw actions which were listed in the link on post #490.
Aug-01-06 Aug-02-06 06:35:46 PDT $520.00 Disney Vacation-Old Key West-Timeshare Rental
Jul-25-06 Aug-02-06 13:11:43 PDT $920.00 Disney Vacation-Beach Club-Timeshare Rental
Jul-23-06 Aug-02-06 18:46:56 PDT $895.00 Disney Vacation-Wilderness Lodge-Timeshare
Jul-23-06 Aug-02-06 18:47:30 PDT $920.00 Disney Vacation-Boardwalk-Timeshare Rental
Aug-02-06 Aug-03-06 18:50:37 PDT $520.00 Disney Vacation-Old Key West-Timeshare Rental
Aug-01-06 Aug-08-06 16:20:26 PDT $845.00 Disney Vacation-Saratoga Springs-Timeshare Rental
Aug-02-06 Aug-09-06 07:45:38 PDT $799.00 Disney Vacation-Boardwalk-Timeshare Rental STD View
Aug-04-06 Aug-11-06 07:59:26 PDT $520.00 Disney Vacation-Old Key West-Timeshare Rental
Aug-02-06 Aug-12-06 13:33:49 PDT $895.00 Disney Vacation-Beach Club-Timeshare Rental
Aug-02-06 Aug-12-06 18:54:05 PDT $920.00 Disney Vacation-Boardwalk-Timeshare Rental
Aug-02-06 Aug-12-06 18:55:31 PDT $895.00 Disney Vacation-Wilderness Lodge-Timeshare
Aug-11-06 Aug-14-06 16:46:28 PDT $520.00 Disney Vacation-Old Key West-Timeshare Rental
Aug-08-06 Aug-15-06 16:22:57 PDT $845.00 Disney Vacation-Saratoga Springs-Timeshare Rental
Aug-16-06 Aug-18-06 12:46:45 PDT $520.00 Disney Vacation-Old Key West-Timeshare Rental
Aug-09-06 Aug-19-06 08:03:03 PDT $799.00 Disney Vacation-Boardwalk-Timeshare Rental STD View
From post #492:
jennybobenny said:
From post # 494.
jennybobenny said:Ok, this is my last one, I promise.
Wonder why you can't get a reservation for Halloween?
Disdvcer's 30 day completed and current ebay auction listing:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...disdvcer&include=0&rows=50&sort=3&completed=1
And, just in case that link doesn't work:
130008702544 Jul-18-06 Jul-28-06 17:48:11 PDT $1,325.00 Disney Boardwalk Timeshare Rental Studio Halloween Oct
SAVE up to $525 SOLD-OUT-DATES ! ALSO JULY dates No Bids (*)
130008702722 Jul-18-06 Jul-28-06 17:49:13 PDT $2,690.00 Disney Old Key West Vacation Timeshare 2-BR 10/29-11/3
Sold Out Halloween Week! SAVE $$$ & Can get 10/28-11/5 No Bids (*)
130009470088 Jul-20-06 Jul-30-06 22:19:58 PDT $1,200.00 Disney Beach Club Timeshare Vacation Rental Studio Sept
Food & Wine OTHER-SOLD-OUT-DATES Aug - Dec & 8/6-11 No Bids (*)
130011940341 Jul-29-06 Aug-08-06 10:29:54 PDT $1,325.00 Disney Boardwalk Timeshare Rental Studio Halloween Oct
SAVE up to $525 SOLD-OUT-DATES ! ALSO JULY dates No Bids (*)
130011940605 Jul-29-06 Aug-08-06 10:31:02 PDT $2,690.00 Disney Old Key West Vacation Timeshare 2-BR 10/29-11/3
Sold Out Halloween Week! SAVE $$$ & Can get 10/28-11/5 No Bids (*)
130012796818 Aug-01-06 Aug-10-06 08:25:53 PDT $1,065.00 Disney Beach Club Timeshare Vacation Rental Studio Aug
8/13-18 also Food & Wine & OTHER-SOLD-OUT-DATES !!! bostonsteveskiing( 1 ) (*)
130012526502 Jul-31-06 Aug-10-06 10:53:23 PDT $1,200.00 Disney Beach Club Timeshare Vacation Rental Studio Sept
Food & Wine OTHER-SOLD-OUT-DATES No Bids (*)
130015148245 Aug-08-06 Aug-18-06 10:32:09 PDT $1,325.00 Disney Boardwalk Timeshare Rental Studio Halloween Oct
SAVE up to $525 SOLD-OUT-DATES !! Other Dates Also !!! No Bids (*)
130015148479 Aug-08-06 Aug-18-06 10:32:54 PDT $2,690.00 Disney Old Key West Vacation Timeshare 2-BR 10/29-11/3
Sold Out Halloween Week! SAVE $$$ & Can get 10/28-11/5 No Bids (*)
130016279522 Aug-11-06 Aug-21-06 12:20:02 PDT $1,200.00 Disney Beach Club Timeshare Vacation Rental Studio Sept
Food & Wine OTHER-SOLD-OUT-DATES No Bids (*)
130019000324 Aug-20-06 Aug-30-06 10:31:58 PDT $2,690.00 Disney Old Key West Vacation Timeshare 2-BR 10/29-11/3
Sold Out Halloween Week! SAVE $$$ & Can get 10/28-11/5 No Bids Yet
130019000633 Aug-20-06 Aug-30-06 10:32:48 PDT $1,325.00 Disney Boardwalk Timeshare Rental Studio Halloween Oct
SAVE up to $525 SOLD-OUT-DATES !! Other Dates Also !!! No Bids Yet
Note - I added the red highlights
JMHO
Longhairbear
DIS Veteran
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I am not agreeing or disagreeing, as my brain is trying to look at this logically without all the facts.2Princes2Princesses said:
As I understand the set up for 11 month, and 7 month windows, everyone has the same or different use years from varying resorts. Reservation requests coming in to MS for a particular resort are coming via 12 different use years, on 365 different days. Am I correct in assuming there are 12 use years, one for each month of the year? If so, then one with an 11 month window is competing for a reservation at the same time and length of stay,in a particular size unit with all the other same use year home base members. At the same time a member is trying to book at 10 months from 11 other use years whose home base is there. Then there are the home base owners at 9 months all the way down to 1 month or less before check in.
There could also be someone from another resort home base trying to book the exact same time at their 7 month window, times 6 other resorts in the same use year. Add less than 7 months from all the other various use years.
I can't even begin to fathom morphed points coming into play here.
So, does DVC keep a block of rooms clear for booking, month to month giving priority to 11 month members equal to the number of members in that use year? Is this where the waitlist comes partially into play?
What were the windows of booking,if any, in place when OKW was the only home base resort?
Frank
waltfan1957
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keys2kingdom said:Dude you're grinding your axe on some pretty well established members. First Beca and now Tony. Way to make friends and influence people!
Oh i see only well established members are allowed a voice on here for the record I apologised to Becca I dont have a axe to grind with anyone but when some people make stupid or irrelevant comments only your little clique is allowed to respond, it should be made clear on this board that only people who support yourview are allowed on here. thats me done with this board
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My point was merely that point morphing and so one may be a problem, but they're probably not related to this thread's topic, and it would make sense to start a new thread to discuss them rather than continuing on the tangent. This thread is about eBay and commercial renters.
And again, I think that the commercial renters are much more likely to be sitting on huge piles of points rather going through the time and effort of hunting down cheap points to do a one-time morph of them. They may have done it once or twice, but it's just not worth the time it takes for a heavy-duty renter.
And again, I think that the commercial renters are much more likely to be sitting on huge piles of points rather going through the time and effort of hunting down cheap points to do a one-time morph of them. They may have done it once or twice, but it's just not worth the time it takes for a heavy-duty renter.
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Groucho said:
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waltfan1957 said:
Please do not leave.
I think you made some valid points.
I for one appreciate your opinions!
I am sorry that you seem to think only a few are allowed to reply.
We need other opinions.
I hope you will reconsider.
2Princes2Princesses
Heavily medicated for your safety!<br><font color=
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Longhairbear said:
Frank-
Use year has nothing to do with the booking window. The 11 months or 7 months is based on the date of check out.
So, for Christmas week, say 12/23/2007-12/30/2007, ALL members who own at a resort can call starting on 01/23/2007 to make a reservation day by day. So every owner is competing on that day for a reservation for that particular day. Your use year does not come into play.
This is how point morphing can be used: I own at SSR. So if I want BCV for Xmas, I cannot call for it until 05/23/2007. But if I had a small BCV contract, in theory, I could transfer my SSR points to my BCV contract in January of 2007. Then, as long as MS did not notice, I could use all of those points on 01/23/2007 to book BCV. Even though some of them were SSR points originally.
However, with all the detective work, it has been apparent that the commercial renters that have been talked about here, such as smw, OWN at all the resorts. So point morphing is really not the problem with the W's, at least.
Reserving the prime weeks and then selling them on Ebay is definitely an issue for me! I was just thinking, here it is, a month before food and wine and they still had weeks for October for sale on Ebay. Meanwhile, members are waitlisted and paying cash elsewhere. I wonder if these will be available for members soon, since the 31 days is approaching. I would assume they cancel the ressies if they don't sell??
jennybobenny
banana fanna fo fenny
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2Princes2Princesses said:This is how point morphing can be used: I own at SSR. So if I want BCV for Xmas, I cannot call for it until 05/23/2007. But if I had a small BCV contract, in theory, I could transfer my SSR points to my BCV contract in January of 2007. Then, as long as MS did not notice, I could use all of those points on 01/23/2007 to book BCV. Even though some of them were SSR points originally.
However, with all the detective work, it has been apparent that the commercial renters that have been talked about here, such as smw, OWN at all the resorts. So point morphing is really not the problem with the W's, at least.
Reserving the prime weeks and then selling them on Ebay is definitely an issue for me! I was just thinking, here it is, a month before food and wine and they still had weeks for October for sale on Ebay. Meanwhile, members are waitlisted and paying cash elsewhere.
You just summed up 44 pages of posts in only a few sentences. Great job! And I totally agree.
greenban
DIS Veteran<br><br><img src="http://www.wdwinfo.co
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Deb & Bill said:
Or in my case, often be wrong.
My issue is really not about being right or wrong, it is about the loss of a friendly discussion forum. Remember the OP has left the DIS because of this thread.
I learn something new here at the DISboards, every day, so when I post an opinion, I make sure it is listed as an opinion, and I gladly engage in discussion of other POVs, and will try and understand another POV, who can honestly say the same of the three posters I called out?
Having been away for 2+ weeks, I read this (at the time) 41 page thread in one sitting. Therefore, I fully stand behind my remarks, both observational and caustic. Several users seem to think they can trash/attack others, but they must be replied to as royalty.
Ain't gonna happen on my watch.
Back to the topic:
I understand commercial renters wanting to maximize profit, and that means peak weeks. December, Easter, Food & Wine, President's Week and the Marathon.
The Commercial Renter will pre-book as many of these as possible and try to rent these 'Spec' rentals. They are smart, and know and can manipulate the system by morphing lower cost points into BCV. BWV or VWL points, *IF THEY NEED ADDITIONAL POINTS AT THE 11 MONTH WINDOW. I'm certain that they know their banking deadlines, so they can cancel at the 31 day mark (if the 'Spec' goes unsold), and still bank their morphed (or 'regular') points into the next UY.
This absolutely hurts the 'average' DVC renter.
But, we have finally established, that (at least one 'Super Owner') owned their own points, and that morphing was not necessary. Although, from her 'sob story' posts under other User IDs, I do believe she 'bought' as many transferred points as she could, all for resale, possibly morphing as well.
Also, many of the listings are for ressies only months away, not 11 months away, so MY OPINION is that morphing is an easy scapegoat for people to rally against, completely missing the real points.
My version of the real points:
Why did Disney act now?
----My guess to protect the CRV and VAKL, to make the mass majority of DVC owners happy (since they think something is being done), so the good PR of satisfied DVC Owners will help hype up the CRV & VAKL.
Why did they do what they did?
----My guess. Most of us seem to agree that tracking points correctly is the optimal solution, this is a shotgun approach. Some thoughts. Disney is testing to see how much they can change without the serfs (DVC Owners) revolting. Is no transfers, banking or borrowing restrictions next? Could be, may not be. Perhaps a one month home resort booking window?
---Why not enforce other clearer parts of the POS, like point limits at resorts and in the aggregate?
Will it work?
----Count me with Dean here, I believe that these changes will make it worse. Pro renters who have not been approached, or had reservations cancelled will continue. Yes loosing eBay or even DISboard advertising may hurt, but someone with 1500 prior rentals over the years, has quite a lot of repeat rentals already built up.
-----They don't need to advertise, just scan the boards for members posting-say, "I need VWL studio 12/2-12/9/2006", and then quietly email or even PM them with an offer. Don't even need to be a registered user at most boards to read the forums......
-----But since it now is a little harder for these Commercial Renters to 'sell', perhaps they will more agressively book those hard to get weeks, or GVs knowing they can always cancel at 31 days. Or book 3 GVs every Wednesday in December, knowing other nights will stay available-since they 'stole' the middle of the week, again maximizing the use of and the value of their points.
Again, I freely admit I can be wrong, this is a complex, multipfactorial system.
But I will reply to those snarky remarks made when someone simply disagrees.
And I will reply in kind until banned by The Powers That Be, or until they choose to equally implement the board's guidelines to all members, not just the vocal minority!
Finally, remember anyone who ever transferred points for any form of compensation (in either direction) choose to violate a POS regulation that has been unchanged since inception. The fact that everyones does it, still doesn't make it morally or ethically right........
Kind of equivalent to Commercial Renter in my book, YMMV.
-Tony
OneMoreTry
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Beca said:
Points well taken.
1. Makes sense. No argument. I guess I put BCV because it seems that more people complain of not being able to get villas there than OKW.
2. I don't know. I'm actually trying to figure this out. If I had distressed points I'd rather sell em at $5 than lose em so I would be happy for someone to buy them. And I don't have ANY complaint about that person turning around and selling them for $10. My only complaint would be if they could use them for another resort at 11 months.
We may all be discussing something that's really of minimal practical significance at this point. But if there's a potential problem it's better to fix it now then wait until it's full blown. Maybe DVC is tracking a trend and has decided to step earlier rather than later. Maybe they are only targeting a few people. I dunno.
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I don't know if I'd agree with the second sentence here.
But that's probably obvious.
Some may be smart, but we saw that not all are - we've seen some pretty ridiculous mistakes being made in this thread. Having multiple accounts, lying about "knowing", begging points, putting points in a "children family trust"... none of those are good moves for someone who is just trying to make some money. Let's not give more credit than is due.greenban said:
I would assume that those reservations were all made at the eleven-month window, and the commercial renter sat on them until it came close. If they put the auction up at eleven months, they're far less likely to get good bids as your average visitor isn't planning that far ahead. Put 'em up when they're only a month or two away, aggressively advertise that they're "sold out", and hope there's more than one desperate person who wants them, to drive up the bidding.
But that's probably obvious.
Beca
Apparently, we all have more money than brains!!!
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minnie61650 said:
Well, I added up all those that you listed (I don't know how many/if were duplicates), and here is what I got.
1) BWV 14 ressies
2) OKW 9 ressie
3) BCV 8 ressies
4) a tie...VWL and SSR - 4 ressies each.
However, if you look at one of my posts (number 429), you can see that the day I looked, there were 8 ressies on ebay....5 were at OKW, and one each at three of the other resorts (I think 1 each at BWV, BCV, and SSR...VWL didn't have any auctions up that day).
So, in both samples....OKW was WELL reprresented in the rental market. That makes me think that renters ARE looking for the "best bargain" of points. In your example, BWV and BCV were also popular, and with BCV being smaller, it certainly wouldn't take much for BCV to be full. I get that.
However, I am still not convinced that renters are the main cause of the congestion at the resorts. I heard from someone at DVC that there were "many causes" for DVC to limit the transfers to one per year. Also, I heard the number of DVC commercial renters who were doing this big-time was a VERY small number.
I just don't understand how many SSR owners who truly love their resort, and believe it is a totally awesome resort can say that renters would not be interested in renting ressies there? I love BCV, and believe that, yes...there is some renting going on there. I am not naive enough to think that everyone loves the resort as I do, and therefore do not believe that renters are ONLY renting BCV.
I think renting is probably going on at ALL resorts. But, from a financial perspective....renting at BCV, BWV, and VWL is the WORST move you could make...unless those were the only rooms left in the system. I know that if someone gave me points to rent, and said, "Make as much money as you can", I would certainly go for the cheapest rooms in the system....making OKW my first choice, and SSR my second (unless I could get BWV standard view).I certainly think "commercial renters" ought to take their share of the blame for any congestion of the resorts. However, I still believe that when you look at the number of points that are owned by commercial renters, and compare that to the number of points that will enter the system by the time SSR is complete....SSR will "dwarf" commercial renters. And, I do not believe that there are enough "distressed" points on the market by which anyone could run a viable business.
However, if people sleep better by making renters the "scapegoats" at the cause of all DVC's problems....why I should I stop your fun....have at it....I guess.
But, please don't get mad at me for not drinking the same kool-aid...I see different conclusions from the facts.
Beca
Apparently, we all have more money than brains!!!
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OneMoreTry said:
Yes, you're right. As per Disney legal, individual members have been identified, and notified. Steps have been taken to stop the "big offenders" on an individual basis.
So then, I have to ask....why limit everyone, when those whom DVC is blaming for the "necessary change" have been stopped in other ways? Could it be that DVC is changing the rule for other reasons than what they are saying? Could it be that DVC is limiting our flexibility by blaming an "enemy" that has been contained by other measures? Wait....are we talking about DVC, or the Iraq war? I'm really confused??!!!
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It's the same reason that the holiday weeks are the ones that are scooped up most by the commercial renters, instead of just any ol' week during the year.Beca said:
The larger size of OKW and SSR means that they can't put that all-important "SOLD OUT!" on the auction, and there will also be more demand, as someone who just HAS to stay there has no CHOICE but to go with the commercial renters... since they can't book the room themselves, whether they're a DVC member or going through the normal WDW reservation system.
Which leaves the question, why aren't VWL reservations (being the smallest property) being auctioned as much? I can only assume because it's not by Epcot, and the Epcot location means that the renter can also hype the various festivals.
To sum up, I would also assume that we don't see as much SSR because 1) they're newer so the renters haven't had time to build up points there (I suspect they mainly buy resale points to save money), 2) the points are more expensive, 3) the newness means that it's not as well known so might be harder to sell, and 4) because of it's size, it's rarely going to be sold out. #2 and #4 are the big ones.
Beca
Apparently, we all have more money than brains!!!
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greenban said:
I completely agree!! I had a friend who toured DVC early last year. When the tour DVC person (she didn't remember his name) was explaining the system, he said the window was currently an 11/7 one, but DVC was looking at making it an 11/9 one. Well, I called my guide immediately and he said he didn't know anything about it....but still, it makes me wonder. I mean, what a thing for a guide to say to someone. Did he totally make it up because she had stated that she wasn't really that interested in SSR, and he thought having 9 months to book elsewhere would encourage her to buy? Or, was DVC really discussing it? I mean, it would be really bad for a guide to sell someone something with the suggestion that a rule would be changing, only to have it not change. Needless to say, I was "looking" for this change all last summer. I'm still not convinced it is NOT happening.
I'm also in the camp that DVC is making "small changes" to see how far they can push us. They tried to lower the pool temps, and if it were not for the HUGE amount of complaints they received, our pool temps would still be lower.
The DVC "spin makers" are very good at what they do. If they can limit our flexibility, and convince us that it is to our benefit...they have created a "win-win" situation...as long as we believe it. That is what is happening here...some are believing it, and others are not.
I totally agree with Tony on another point as well. It has been a long-standing "joke" on this board, and other disboards that WDW and DVC have been known to make long lists of rules, and barely (if all) enforce them. I wish that DVC would begin by enforcing the rules the rules they already have, instead of making new ones. If DVC would enforce their rule that "transfers retain home resort"...MANY of our problems would be solved. If DVC enforced the rule that "no compensation may be involved in a transfer", well...that would solve the rest of the problems. WDW and DVC both need to either find ways to enforce their rules, or simply removing the rules. Having some rules that are un-enforceable make people want to ignore ALL the rules. If DVC "picks and chooses" what rules they think are worthy of being enforced...why shouldn't owners be able to do the same. With their "wishy-washy" approach, they are asking people to break their rules.
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Groucho said:
I agree. I have never stayed at any of the DVC's but if I decided to stay at one OKW and SSR would not be my choice. I have no interest in them. I would choose BC or BWV because it is close to Epcot or WL because it is a boat ride away from the MK.
I am very interested in buying into DVC if and only if a DVC is built on the monorail. When pictures of the (rumored) Contemporary DVC were posted I started watching these boards and this thread in particular.
I will tell you this much I am glad I am not an owner of DVC yet and I am one those watching as greenban said ----
greenban said:
Yes, I am one those potential DVC owners who is watching this outcome very closely.
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