DVC Response About Ebay Commercial Sellers

[brasey]

Wouldn't it be hard to track down a member on e-bay since you don't list your real name? You could list under several e-bay names.

If it is a violation of a legal contract I am sure that they can get the records of that individual and the legal department can do as they wish with them. E-Bay will not hold back someones account info in regards to transactions if pressed legally.

 

[starbox]

Absolutely.

But put yourself in the mocassins of that family. You fly all day to get to Disney, you get to the resort, and Disney tells you they have canceled your reservation because you rented from a commercial renter on eBay.

What was your crime? You didn't know the DVC POS prohibits that?

I disagree. Before the ticket tagging, and even now, people paid big bucks on resale market tickets via. sites like ebay and sometimes those tickets did not work. Disney's policy was, basically, "too bad". I don't think the media would be sympathetic of people who try to play the system. (Remember how much media Disney owns).

Even the guidebooks say that if you don't deal directly with Disney, you just have to take your chances that you're dealing with an honest seller/renter. Even before the new rules went into effect, I would have never rented from a DVC member because I'd have been afraid something like that could happen. The risk of something potentially going wrong with my dream vacation was too great for me to deal with anyone other than Disney directly.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I disagree. Before the ticket tagging, and even now, people paid big bucks on resale market tickets via. sites like ebay and sometimes those tickets did not work. Disney's policy was, basically, "too bad". I don't think the media would be sympathetic of people who try to play the system. (Remember how much media Disney owns).

I was visiting the folks at Thanksgiving time and the local Orlando station did a story about people who bought resale tickets and were turned away at the gate because the tickets were not valid. I believe Disney did offer them discounted park tickets in the name of good public relations, but the report concluded with a warning about buying only from Disney itself if you wanted to be sure that the tickets you buy will get you into the park.
I could see Disney trying to accomodate the family if possible at a value resort, but the message will get across much faster if word gets out that people's vacations are being ruined over ebay DVC sales. I know all it would take for me is to hear one story about how someone got ripped off purchasing DVC on ebay and it would keep me away.

 

[drakethib]

Absolutely.

But put yourself in the mocassins of that family. You fly all day to get to Disney, you get to the resort, and Disney tells you they have canceled your reservation because you rented from a commercial renter on eBay.

What was your crime? You didn't know the DVC POS prohibits that?

Now...if you were in that predicament, who would you be mad at -- the person you rented from, or the company who told you your vacation had been tossed into the toilet because THEY decided to do so?

That's a public relations nightmare. Geraldo (where IS he, BTW?), Greta, and Nancy Grace would be all over that. Larry King would interview some guy who used to be your ex-wife's cousin for two hours live from WDW! Wolf's lips would quiver and Bill Riley would be apoplectic.

Naw. Ain't gonna happen.

Not disagreeing with you Jim, but I didn't rent from Disney, I rented from the renter. The rentees contract is with the renter. Yeah I would be ticked off if this happen, but I think it could happen. This is why I would never rent points (YMMV). I will have them transferred but never rent. I am a DVC owner but before that I would just foot the bill for the room that I want. Yeah it hurts the pocket book but better safe then sorry IMHO. When I didnt have the money for the room I had to get what I could afford.



Also, let me ask a dumb question, does DVC "allow" points to be rented? I really don't know.

Disney canceled the ressie with the DVC owner.

It could be a PR snafu, but at the end of the day, it would be a PR nightmare for Ebay more then Disney IMHO.


To those who do rent, I strongly recommend paying by credit card so that the charges can be contested if something goes wrong.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I know there are some good people renting their points. You never know what could happen these days.

 

[Para2176]

Let me throw this idea out and see how it plays.

If say a hypothetical DVCer purchased a 150 pt contract with 40 years left at $80/point, the total cost of that contract would be about $12000.

If we factor in general maintenance costs of about $700 per year for this contract (which of course could go up), the total maintenance costs for the life of the contract would be about $28000. Round it up to $30000 for potential increases.

If the purchaser paid cash for the contract (no financing charges factored), the total cost to the purchaser for the life time of the contract would be about $42000.

If we divide that by the total points over the life of the contract (6000 points), the cost per point over the lifetime of the contract would be $7 per point.

Therefore, based on this calculation, anyone that rents their points over $7 per point is making a profit.

So, my question is:

"Can DVC in anyway enforce a policy against people who commercially rent without affecting everyone?"

I have no intention of renting my points to anyone in the near future (I have vacations planned for the next 7 years). But after that time, or if my situation changes, I would like the ability to rent the points to at least cover maintenance fees for the year.

My understanding is that under the contract you are not restricted from renting your points unless it falls into the category previously mentioned on this board.

But then again, I could be wrong.

 

[sajetto]

So, my question is:

"Can DVC in anyway enforce a policy against people who commercially rent without affecting everyone?"

.

This is my concern too Para. I just let the commercial renting roll off my back because I know that in an effort to elimate the commerical renters it would affect the rest of us.

My fiance and I bought into DVC because it was the right decision for us at the moment. In the future we may find that we have too few or too many points for our needs or that we simply cannot go one year. In this case we will NEED to rent out our points because banking them would cause an excess. If it came to the point that we could not rent out our left over, unused points we would be forced to sell our DVC because it would no longer be economical. We'd be paying for points and the fees that go along with them they we aren't even using.

 

[DISNEYFOS]

In the future we may find that we have too few or too many points for our needs or that we simply cannot go one year. In this case we will NEED to rent out our points because banking them would cause an excess.

In this scenario, clearly you wouldn't be considered a "commercial renter" and there is no indication you are renting "for profit". I don't believe this would raise any red flags with anyone.

I don't think Disney is trying to change anything to a black and white policy (renting/no renting) just saying its at their discretion to cancel reservations if they see anyone blantantly abusing the system.

 

[JimMIA]

I think there are a couple of things we miss in considering enforcement against commercial renters. The first is the methodology used to identify them, and the second is the nature of the enforcement action.

The way they would identify renters is simply by looking at DVC's own records. For example, they tell their auditing software to go look at all 100,000+ DVC accounts and give them a list of all accounts with, say, four or more ressies in the past 12 months. Or, if you wanted to set the bar really high, more than 12 ressies in the last 12 months.

You get a list. Are all of those commercial renters? No. To determine that, you'd have to go to each individual account and evaluate it. But the rental patterns would jump right out at you. A commercial renter's account would not look anything like yours and mine. So the process to identify commercial renters is very simple and inexpensive to do.

As far as enforcement, this is a great question:

"Can DVC in anyway enforce a policy against people who commercially rent without affecting everyone?"

And the answer to the question is YES. Yes, they can easily enforce against commercial renters without having any impact at all on people who rent points occasionally for whatever purpose. Renting is not against the DVC rules -- commercial renting is against the rules.

How do you enforce against commercial renters without impacting regular DVC owners?

Simple. You call them and tell them you've identified a pattern of commercial renting in their account, which violates the DVC POS, and you are no longer accepting reservations in those accounts. You tell them you'll honor the existing ressies if they want to retain the account until all the ressies are fulfilled, or they can cancel the ressies and sell their account.

Don't like it? Sue us. Please. We have lawyers.

 

[paults]

why do some people think Disney should be responsible for taking care of someone who rented pts off e-bay or from this boards rent/trade board.



If you rent off these then this is your problem if something goes wrong (not Disneys)

Granted Disney will most likely try to do something to right this but it shouldn't be expected. sorry

I remember before we joined DVC and wanted to go to WDW I used to check E-BAY for the old park hoppers for a deal. Well after thinking about it awhile I said no way. What makes me think that a E-BAY PH with 2 or 3 days left on it is true. If I buy it and get to the park and it doesn't work , whose fault is it. NOT DISNEYS it's my fault and they same goes for renting. You rent and it doesn't work, too bad your problem, NOT DISNEY.

As far as these people booking all these hot times and then renting them out, it just hurts the rest of us because we can't get these times.

come on DISNEY get with it

 

[stlrod]

By way of background, I am an ocassional renter and have used eBay to do so. I have 265 points. I view DVC as a prepaid vacation expense and sometime rent my interest to pay for other vacations.

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but nonetheless here goes. While there are mixed views on whether renting is appropriate, two wrongs do not make a right. In my view, members do not need to be contacting DVC to inform them other members are violating rules. If DVC is truly interested in protecting the interests of the members, they will look into eBay auctions themeselves and address the situation on their own.

It is very easy to track down the members who are "habitually" selling on eBay. How do I know this? I was "caught" by American Airlines once. I sold a frequent flyer ticket on eBay and within hours after making the reservation for the purchaser, I was contacted by American and told that the itinerary had been cancelled and that I was to refund the money to the purchaser. I did so, lost the miles and "paid" a miles penalty. Frankly, it could have been worse (I did not lose all my miles.) Needless to say, I have never sold a frequent flyer ticket since then. By the way, American sold a ticket for the same itinerary to the eBay purchaser at a greatly reduced rate.

As for how I will conduct myself in the future with DVC, I will not be using the boards or eBay to rent points. I might consider renting points to people who have rented from me in the past or true friends and family members. Even then, I would do it on an infrequent basis.

As for commercial sellers, you can complain all you want about, but the bottom line is that until now, DVC has turned a "blind eye" to them. I am sure that this new enforcement policy will reduce the frequency of renting without any of us needing to police the situation.

 

[rinkwide]

...commercial renting is against the rules...

Not really. Commercial renting is against Disney's stated policy. This "policy" is a self-serving twist on a disclaimer in Florida timeshare contracts which protects buyers from misrepresentation.

It would never hold up in court but it doesn't have to. With knowledgeable people on here are repeating Disney's erroneous claim as fact, it has already achieved it's desired intent.

 

[Para2176]

As far as enforcement, this is a great question: And the answer to the question is YES. Yes, they can easily enforce against commercial renters without having any impact at all on people who rent points occasionally for whatever purpose. Renting is not against the DVC rules -- commercial renting is against the rules.

How do you enforce against commercial renters without impacting regular DVC owners?

Simple. You call them and tell them you've identified a pattern of commercial renting in their account, which violates the DVC POS, and you are no longer accepting reservations in those accounts. You tell them you'll honor the existing ressies if they want to retain the account until all the ressies are fulfilled, or they can cancel the ressies and sell their account.

I think the problem is there is not a current definition of "commercial renter" and only a vague statement to that effect.

My experience with contract law is, unless it is specifically defined beforehand, changes in the contract are not permitted by either party unless mutually agreed upon. An arbitrary set of guidelines adopted and enforced by Disney without agreement of the DVC owner can not be enforced.

The other problem is what criteria do you use to identify the "commercial renter" over anyone else. Just because reservations are made in someone elses name, does not indicate the people are renting. The "renters" who advertise on ebay are blatantly obvious. But how can you differentiate that renter and say a person who holds a large contract and "rents" points to members of a group, formal or informal, without advertising.

I think under the current circumstances things will continue as they are currently practiced.

 

[debloco]

Making Mickey look like The Grinch on Crack...

Don't like it? Sue us. Please. We have lawyers.

Again...

The way they would identify renters is simply by looking at DVC's own records. For example, they tell their auditing software to go look at all 100,000+ DVC accounts and give them a list of all accounts with, say, four or more ressies in the past 12 months. Or, if you wanted to set the bar really high, more than 12 ressies in the last 12 months.

You get a list. Are all of those commercial renters? No. To determine that, you'd have to go to each individual account and evaluate it. But the rental patterns would jump right out at you. A commercial renter's account would not look anything like yours and mine. So the process to identify commercial renters is very simple and inexpensive to do.

Bolding mine, and ITA.

We made 5 reservations our first year of owning DVC, and have made 3 so far this year. But Jim's right; my account would look nothing like a commercial renter's account.

 

[Jay Foster]

Update.

DVC had the auction REMOVED from ebay.

Further update: I spoke with DVC today and they are not going to tolerate commercial renters any longer. They are cracking down on the ebay auctions on this.

This will NOT affect people who just rent because they can't go on a vacation. In other words, what I call the "casual" renter.

So, if you want to stop the commercial renting, a simple email with the link to the ebay auction works.

 

[crisi]

I think the problem is there is not a current definition of "commercial renter" and only a vague statement to that effect.

My experience with contract law is, unless it is specifically defined beforehand, changes in the contract are not permitted by either party unless mutually agreed upon. An arbitrary set of guidelines adopted and enforced by Disney without agreement of the DVC owner can not be enforced.

The other problem is what criteria do you use to identify the "commercial renter" over anyone else. Just because reservations are made in someone elses name, does not indicate the people are renting. The "renters" who advertise on ebay are blatantly obvious. But how can you differentiate that renter and say a person who holds a large contract and "rents" points to members of a group, formal or informal, without advertising.

I think under the current circumstances things will continue as they are currently practiced.

May be moot. This can turn easily into "my lawyers are bigger than your lawyers." Besides, as rinkwide said, probably not necessary. Renting has always incurred some risk - Disney has publically gone on record now as saying "and we don't have your back - moreover, we don't approve of the commerical rental market." That makes it less attractive to renters, which will drive the demand down, add the "can't transfer lots of distressed points" and Disney is putting people out of business on a profit margin move without cancelling a single reservation. That and maybe a letter to eBay on some of the aggregious commercial renters that would shut down the "high traffic" eBay location.

Cancelling reservations may be a bluff - but what informed renter is going to risk their vacation finding out?

I don't think this is a legal move - I think this is a "making the rental business unattractive" move.

 

[WDW LifeLong Fan]

..........Geraldo (where IS he, BTW?), Greta, and Nancy Grace would be all over that. Larry King would interview some guy who used to be your ex-wife's cousin for two hours live from WDW! Wolf's lips would quiver and Bill Riley would be apoplectic.

Naw. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Jay Foster]

Well, again, what did happen is the auction was removed from Ebay. I just provided DVC the link and they took care of it.

 

[Jay Foster]

One more update.

I searched ebay for disney vacations and noticed that DVC did not have just that auction that I emailed them removed but ALL COMMERCIAL auctions were removed.

Unless I missed something on ebay, it appears they are really cracking down on the commercial renters.

 

[DISNEYFOS]

Well, again, what did happen is the auction was removed from Ebay. I just provided DVC the link and they took care of it.

Excellent Thanks for the update. If they removed the auction, no doubt they will notify the renter his reservations are in jepoardy of being cancelled.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Well, again, what did happen is the auction was removed from Ebay. I just provided DVC the link and they took care of it.

Excellent. I feel badly for the people that patronized that auction because they rented in good faith, but they also assumed a certain amount of risk when they made the purchase. "Let the Buyer Beware"

I can't help but think that Disney's crackdown on commercial renters will be good for us members who buy points to use for ourselves, friends and family.