DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Sandisw]

Would that also give them the ability to directly control the rental process and ban all rentals through third parties?

I sent a short email letting them know we are concerned about commercial renters taking a huge chunk of prime dates (like school vacations) using bots and that my husband asked why we would buy more points at DLR when it is so much easier (and possibly cheaper) to simply rent from commercial renters who have all the good dates.

So is there anything that stops them from making rentals subject to different booking procedures than owner personal use?

Also added that in my email.

I generally agree with your post, but wanted to mention it’s not PR slips when Disney reveals they track per visitor spend, it’s a metric they acknowledge and share with $DIS shareholders. They are going to do what’s best for the bottom line, and while happy DVC members helps, I think we’re going to see enforcement directly on the folks undercutting their hotel occupancy numbers/pricing more than enforcement on the folks simply getting a jump on other owners — why commercial renting is more of a priority than walking.

I meant to mention yesterday— it’s probably slightly easier to find rooms/start walks on 11/29-12/2 this year as people (like me) who travel for Thanksgiving week check out on Sun/Mon/Tue.

I agree but also if they stop walking and/or require booking daily before cracking down on for profit rentals, the most sophisticated renters will have an even easier time locking out the average owner.

To answer a few of your questions:

The only limitation that the current contract lists for renting is that one can not rent in a way that the board can reasonable say indicates the owner is renting for a commericial enterprise/purpose....

So, I think it would a very hard stretch for them to say that if you use a third party to rent that you are doing it as a business and have gone into the world of commercial. If I, as an owner, book a room at RIV and rent it to a stranger I found at the grocery store and you booked that same room at RIV, using a broker to find that renter, I think it would be very very hard for DVC (and why I dont think this will ever happen) to say that you are renting as a business and I am not when we both rented the same exact reservation.

While they do have the right to amend things in the contract, because this is a condo, drusba already shared that some of condo statutes apply here when it comes to renting and given her legal mind, I trust that she knows her stuff...and has said, changing the rules to limit renting beyond for commericial purposes would require a vote by the owners, one in which only DVC can request.

Because the contract does not list or treat renters any different than owners and their guests, I do not see anything that gives them the authority to make different rules for booking based on who is using the room. It would violate the FCFS rule in the POS which says all rooms will be open for booking for all members under the same rules. That is why they can't even make different home resort rules for resale owners and direct owners at the same resort. FL timeshare law says those booking rules need to be the same because we all own a deeded interest and how we aquire it doesn't matter. Exchanging through BVTC doesnt' have to follow that rule.

So, no, I don't think they can do either of those and if they tried, I think you would get a lot of pushback and even legal challenges. I also don't think they will try it because they repeated several times in the meetings that they recognize owners right to rent and that it is part of the program. What they agreed with is that renting for a commerical reason is what is not allowed and what they want to stop as best they can.

For walking, they absolutely can put in rules that limit or stop it as long as those rules are included in the actual home resort rules (HRR) and regulations document. As I pointed out earlier, the DVC membership agreement states that that information will be included.

Right now, the only limitation for canceling a room is a penalty less than 31 days out....other than that, there is no limitation to being able to cancel. DVC can add one if they want and as long as they say "this is based on membership bookings and what is a benefit for the membership as a whole", those rules can be changed.

But, as many of us said in the walking thread, right now, the rules don't have that so that is why people have been allowed to walk without an issue....because DVC needs to add something to the rules to stop it. I know that the word "desired" is used in the HRR amd that many feel that word proves walking is not allowed. Maybe it does but DVC did not include any limitation to the booking process and they would need to if they leave a booking process in place that techincally allows a walk to happen in the first place.**added for clarity...meaning, in order to cancel a reservation that they see is being walked, owners have to have know that was is a limitation to booking a start date that is not your true date....it has to become part of the rules....

My guess is that whatever they do, assuming they do anything and I am not convinced they will, is make new booking and cancel rules without even discussing walking but ones that prevent it. I think it is much more likely that what we would see, because one issue some owners have is the hard to get rooms being either rented and/or walked, is put in place the seasons preference list for the times when walking has the biggest impact....and that is December...

I know that no one is a fan of that, but I certainly would be one to advocate for that over blowing up the entire system and make everything a cancel/rebook, limit modifications to dates or names, etc.

We really have several things going on.....we have commerical renters who both snag high profit rooms and walk them.....but we also have average owners who rent high profit rooms occassionaly and average owners who walk sometimes to get the best rooms.

IMO, I think that DVC wants to go after those large point owners and LLCs owned by some of the same people because they have obviously grown large enough that its hard to ignore they are running a busines....but, I also think this is why the board said it was not common because its a small group of owners who fit in that category.

In terms of curbing walking, I don't see that changing other than doing the season preference list. For renting, I also don't seem them coming up with a whole bunch of new rules that make it harder for the average owner to rent.

As I have said way too many times, what one rents, how they rent, or where they connect with an owner really isn't something that seems to fit saying one is runnning a commerical business and one is not especially since all of the definitions out there for the word commerical can apply to every single rental and we know that our contracts give us the right to rent...the board's statements affirmed that as well.

DVC has a lot of leeway in the contract to keep a closer eye on owners renting....they just need to implement those and if they did, it would require no more adjusting to the rest of it.

Early December is going to be hard and even with no walking, commerical players out there, a lot of people are still going to be shut out....it doesn't mean DVC can't address them....but IMO its not going to meaningfully change the outcome because there simply won't be enough rooms to go around.

But, I do know that many owners believe at least it is a fairer way to do it and if DVC thinks there is, then we will see something different!

Side note- I was shocked yesterday morning that I got that room....but super excited...we shall see what happens when I try for VGF in a few days, and next week, when I do this all again to have rooms for the second week of December!! LOL

ETA: The other reason I think DVC will keep it simple and use what is already there is then they don't have to come up with all these exceptions or have owners continue to do all these what ifs.....the language is there already! And, I know, after spending so many hours last year in emails and phone calls with DVC about renting (when I don't care about it at all, including those who rent as a business), that I do not get the sense they are ever going to come up with hard and fast rules like they did in 2008 again. As I was told, read the contract, it says "pattern of rental" activity and you are responsbile for following the contract. That tells me I get to do it the way I think is allowed until DVC contacts me to say "nope, we think you are running a commerical business".

What I do not see is them looking at owners who rent yearly and stopping that, unless its those owners who never personally used their membership for quite a many years....

 

[Nabas]

Would that also give them the ability to directly control the rental process and ban all rentals through third parties?

Since they are not a party to the contract, I doubt Disney has the legal standing to interfere with a contract signed between a DVC member and a third-party rental company.

The third-party rental company is not violating the POS; the DVC member renting their points is, assuming this rental is part of "a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice."

Disney's remedy is limited to cancelling reservations it reasonably thinks represent a pattern of commercial usage. Third-party rental companies will continue to exist, but they probably will need to get points from a large number of members, rather than lots of points from a handful of members.

I don't have any inside information, but I hope Disney does not go after DVC members who are making a handful of paid reservations for strangers. However, only Disney knows where they will draw the line.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Yes ma’am, you should write how you feel- that’s how adults communicate. For those that understand walking and commercial renting are wrong, make sure you mention their legal duty to uphold the contract “for the good of the membership as a whole”.

Please also include that you are taking marching orders from a poster which has stated they are OK harming the membership as a whole to get their way.

 

[xdan0920]

Please also include that you are taking marching orders from a poster which has stated they are OK harming the membership as a whole to get their way.

Another landlord who is stating things as facts that simply are not facts. It his @lowlight position that curbing renting will improve membership. Not harm. It might harm you specifically, since you use excess points as a make weight to afford Disney.

 

[Sandisw]

Apparently going back to what worked before would cause the product to self implode. Or something.

The board stated at the meeting that the reason it was changed is because it was a hardship for owners to call daily and it was overloading MS with long waittimes.

They wanted it to be easier for owners to be able to book an entire trip at once...hence the rule change...so, DVC board members at the time of the change did not see it as working or it would still be the process.

 

[nalababybear]

Would that also give them the ability to directly control the rental process and ban all rentals through third parties?

I sent a short email letting them know we are concerned about commercial renters taking a huge chunk of prime dates (like school vacations) using bots and that my husband asked why we would buy more points at DLR when it is so much easier (and possibly cheaper) to simply rent from commercial renters who have all the good dates.

So is there anything that stops them from making rentals subject to different booking procedures than owner personal use?

Also added that in my email.

I generally agree with your post, but wanted to mention it’s not PR slips when Disney reveals they track per visitor spend, it’s a metric they acknowledge and share with $DIS shareholders. They are going to do what’s best for the bottom line, and while happy DVC members helps, I think we’re going to see enforcement directly on the folks undercutting their hotel occupancy numbers/pricing more than enforcement on the folks simply getting a jump on other owners — why commercial renting is more of a priority than walking.

I meant to mention yesterday— it’s probably slightly easier to find rooms/start walks on 11/29-12/2 this year as people (like me) who travel for Thanksgiving week check out on Sun/Mon/Tue.

I agree but also if they stop walking and/or require booking daily before cracking down on for profit rentals, the most sophisticated renters will have an even easier time locking out the average owner.

Yeah, Disney knows the spend and not surprised if they talk to shareholders directly about it that way.

Disney is going to do Disney to help Disney. Ie shut down enough rental activity to mitigate the impact on occupancies.

Imho, epic universe is going to impact.more and my bet is that Disney is going to pull all the stops to get those through 2025 as folk surge to universal for their new theme park fix.

 

[Sandisw]

Since they are not a party to the contract, I doubt Disney has the legal standing to interfere with a contract signed between a DVC member and a third-party rental company.

The third-party rental company is not violating the POS; the DVC member renting their points is, assuming this rental is part of "a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice."

Disney's remedy is limited to cancelling reservations it reasonably thinks represent a pattern of commercial usage. Third-party rental companies will continue to exist, but they probably will need to get points from a large number of members, rather than lots of points from a handful of members.

I don't have any inside information, but I hope Disney does not go after DVC members who are making a handful of paid reservations for strangers. However, only Disney knows where they will draw the line.

One change we could see the brokers go back to is not having owners do confirmed reservations like has exploded in the past few years. This way, eve DVC would have no idea who is renting because that information isn't listed.....or implement a policy like here on the DIS where they have chosen not to allow confirmed reservations until 30 days out without the fee (and even then it is limited).

 

[AstroBlasters]

Another landlord who is stating things as facts that simply are not facts. It his @lowlight position that curbing renting will improve membership. Not harm. It might harm you specifically, since you use excess points as a make weight to afford Disney.

No, they wrote in another thread that they were willing to hurt the entire membership to get what they wanted and didn’t care about the consequences.

That is who you are aligned with.

 

[Sandisw]

Another landlord who is stating things as facts that simply are not facts. It his @lowlight position that curbing renting will improve membership. Not harm. It might harm you specifically, since you use excess points as a make weight to afford Disney.

Again, those of us on the other side of the coin have no problem with DVC curbing owners who have turned DVC into a business,,,,meaning their purpose for owning is to rent and not use their points to vacation at all.

What we do not want to see is DVC overstepping their authority to limit renting in general when it is clearly not a business. We may not agree with where that line should be, DVC dioesm, but no one here is against DVC cracking down on LLC's or other businesses who bought for the sole purpose of renting a lot of reservations.

Remember, I do not rent so you can't count me in as a landlord.

As I side note, and I am just curious, do you think that DVC should be enforcing the no transfer for money rule that happens between owners?

 

[Genie+]

Well shoot if DVC decided to change the booking system to make it easier for owners to book all at once…

1 Those owners were simply not putting in enough effort

2 You could still book all at once with the old system, it just wasn’t preference for some

3 You still can’t book all at once today anyway - walk, stalk and waitlist

4 They knew what they bought into, why ever change it

 

[xdan0920]

Again, those of us on the other side of the coin have no problem with DVC curbing owners who have turned DVC into a business,,,,meaning their purpose for owning is to rent and not use their points to vacation at all.

What we do not want to see is DVC overstepping their authority to limit renting in general when it is clearly not a business. We may not agree with where that line should be, DVC dioesm, but no one here is against DVC cracking down on LLC's or other businesses who bought for the sole purpose of renting a lot of reservations.

Remember, I do not rent so you can't count me in as a landlord.

As I side note, and I am just curious, do you think that DVC should be enforcing the no transfer for money rule that happens between owners?

I like how we are moving from commercial to business as a term. If you rent 700 points to fund your remaining 300. You are, IMO, violating the spirit of the rule and I hope Disney cracks down.

To your question about transfer for money. Sure, I’d be fine with them enforcing that.

 

[Nabas]

My guess is that whatever they do, assuming they do anything and I am not convinced they will, is make new booking and cancel rules without even discussing walking but ones that prevent it. I think it is much more likely that what we would see, because one issue some owners have is the hard to get rooms being either rented and/or walked, is put in place the seasons preference list for the times when walking has the biggest impact....and that is December...

Early December is my favorite time of year to go, so I hate suggesting this but...

IMO the best way to address December demand is to adjust the Point Charts so that early December is as expensive as October and November, and then make August less expensive.

 

[tom1944]

Early December is my favorite time of year to go, so I hate suggesting this but...

IMO the best way to address December demand is to adjust the Point Charts so that early December is as expensive as October and November, and then make August less expensive.

I can support that.

 

[Tatebeck]

I like how we are moving from commercial to business as a term. If you rent 700 points to fund your remaining 300. You are, IMO, violating the spirit of the rule and I hope Disney cracks down.

To your question about transfer for money. Sure, I’d be fine with them enforcing that.

The problem is they never specified an amount or ratio of points you can or cannot rent to be considered commercial. They simply said that you can rent your points out if you want or need to. Where do they draw the line?

Use 900 points rent 100?
Use 800 points rent 200?
Use 700 points rent 300?
Use 600 points rent 400?
Use 500 points rent 500?
Use 400 points rent 600?

 

[Nabas]

One change we could see the brokers go back to is not having owners do confirmed reservations like has exploded in the past few years. This way, eve DVC would have no idea who is renting because that information isn't listed.....or implement a policy like here on the DIS where they have chosen not to allow confirmed reservations until 30 days out without the fee (and even then it is limited).

I'm not sure Disney can legally limit all confirmed reservations. Instead, I think Disney can only limit those that represent a pattern of commercial renting.

Let's say that I consistently use my points year after year. But I'm having a baby and know I won't be able to use my points next year. I'd be tempted to grab a hard-to-get room on speculation, since it might be easier to rent. By doing this, IMO I am honoring the spirit of the POS.

 

[Sandisw]

Well shoot if DVC decided to change the booking system to make it easier for owners to book all at once…

1 Those owners were simply not putting in enough effort

2 You could still book all at once with the old system, it just wasn’t preference for some

3 You still can’t book all at once today anyway - walk, stalk and waitlist

4 They knew what they bought into, why ever change it

Honestly, my guess is that the main reason it was changed is because it was costing them a lot more money to fund MS and ate into their profits.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm not sure Disney can legally limit all confirmed reservations. Instead, I think Disney can only limit those that represent a pattern of commercial renting.

Let's say that I consistently use my points year after year. But I'm having a baby and know I won't be able to use my points next year. I'd be tempted to grab a hard-to-get room on speculation, since it might be easier to rent. By doing this, IMO I am honoring the spirit of the POS.

Oh, I don’t believe that Disney can limit them at all…that wasn’t what I was trying to get at.

I meant as a way to make it less obvious the extent that renting is happening.

By not listing as many “confirmed” upfront like they do, people would have no idea how many points or reservations are being rented.

If none of the brokers advertised all those hard to get rooms already booked, would anyone even know they were doing it to the degree they are

Take all those BWV SV studios right now someone said are out there. If those didn’t show, would we even know the owner had them booked?

Even if they still accepted them, they don’t list and make an owner call for the resort and dates they want and then the broker tells them what is available.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Another landlord who is stating things as facts that simply are not facts. It his @lowlight position that curbing renting will improve membership. Not harm. It might harm you specifically, since you use excess points as a make weight to afford Disney.

@AstroBlasters uses his membership they way it's intended to be used. Rents periodically not solely to make a profit but to not just let points he wont be using go to waste. He is not booking large amounts of rooms and spec renting them. I think where the lines have become blurred is when people want to ban renting completely or make booking so hard that DVC becomes undesirable, which isn't what he wants to happen. Sorry @AstroBlasters if I am not interpreting how you use your membership correctly.

 

[Sandisw]

I like how we are moving from commercial to business as a term. If you rent 700 points to fund your remaining 300. You are, IMO, violating the spirit of the rule and I hope Disney cracks down.

To your question about transfer for money. Sure, I’d be fine with them enforcing that.

I am using the word business now because I tried commercial enterprise and it didn’t seem to stick. You are correct though that I should use the contract language as to not confuse people...

Here is the exact wording from VGF that uses it and how the contract is explaining "commercial purpose". (bolding is mine)

12j: Personal Use. Except for Units owned by DVD, which may be utilized as provided in this Declaration,each of tne Vacation Ho?res may be occupied only as vacation accommodations. Except for Units or Ownership owned by DVD, rentals of Vacation Homes to the general public by DVD or the Management Cornpany anduse of Vacation pbints in connection with extemal exchange programs, use of the accommodations and recreationalfacilities of the condominium is limited solely to the personal use of owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership lnterests in a Unit' No Ownerof an Ownership Interest may occupy a Unit or Vacation Home, or use any facilities of the Condominium at any timeother than during the time ihat a Vacation Home is properly reserved by such Owner in accordance with the Condominium Documents. Except as set forth above, use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in this Declaration is expressly prohibited, "Commercial purpose" includes a pattem of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. From time to time, to theextent that the board determines that use is occuning that is for a cornmercial purpose, he Board may in its sole andabsolute discretion, adopt policies to provide what constitutes a commercial enterprise, practice or purpose. NoVacation Home may be divided or subdivided into a smaller Vacation Home. The provisions of this Section 12.1 donot apply to Commercial Units, DVD, the Management Company orThe TWDC Companies.

 

[Sandisw]

The problem is they never specified an amount or ratio of points you can or cannot rent to be considered commercial. They simply said that you can rent your points out if you want or need to. Where do they draw the line?

Use 900 points rent 100?
Use 800 points rent 200?
Use 700 points rent 300?
Use 600 points rent 400?
Use 500 points rent 500?
Use 400 points rent 600?

And they won’t define it either…like I shared, after the hours I spent last year investigating this with many at DVC, going up a few levels, the impression I left with was let’s read the contract together and that is what the policy is.

Meaning each owner decides what it means and follows it…or doesn’t…and DVc steps in when they decide what you are doing isn’t appropriate.