DVC explanation of difference in Transportation budgets at BCV vs BWV

[PamOKW]

This is where I'm a little unsure.

The estimated total Transportation budget for BW is $1.6 and for the Y&B $1.2. So, there is at least a difference of $.4 that needs to be accounted for.

The much larger difference of $843,000 comes about if the feeling is that the costs should be charged based on the size of the resort rather than just a 50/50 (or 33 1/3 if you add in S&D) split?

In any case, there is an explanation due to the BWV owners as to what makes the split different and favors the larger resort.

 

[Kick it up a notch!]

I realize that I am entering the conversation late but I have questions for all of you with the calculations.

1) Do you have a problem with the figures of 1.2 million for the BCV side of the lake and 1.6 million for the BWV side of the lake?

2) Are you mad that we pay more on the BWV side per point than they do on the BCV side?

3) Do you realize that there are more boats that go to the BWV side than the BCV side?

Not all of the boats that are in that lake go around and around. BWV has boats that just go back and forth to Epcot at times. That would mean there are more boats going to the BWV and more cost associated with it. Also does anyone know if the Valet at the BWV gets added in the transportation costs? As members we have free Valet that needs to be paid for. If this is not a line item by itself, it could be added into those costs. I don't have the paperwork in front of me, so I don't know.

I am interested to know if anyone knows the answers to these questions. I am a BWV owner and I believe the costs to be distributed in an equitable fashion. I'm sure that there would be a course in economics that would cover WDW and explain all of the charges, but I see more transportation costs needing to be assessed to the BWV owners.

 

[DeeP]

LisaP,
YC/BC also have their own boat dock. They also have their own marina.
The bus from CSR to Boardwalk was discontinued.
Kick it up a notch,
The boat routes were changed a few years ago, now all the boats go to S/D, YC/BC and BWI/BWV.

 

[TroyWDW]

Originally posted by PamOKW
This is where I'm a little unsure.

The estimated total Transportation budget for BW is $1.6 and for the Y&B $1.2. So, there is at least a difference of $.4 that needs to be accounted for.

The much larger difference of $843,000 comes about if the feeling is that the costs should be charged based on the size of the resort rather than just a 50/50 (or 33 1/3 if you add in S&D) split?

In any case, there is an explanation due to the BWV owners as to what makes the split different and favors the larger resort.

Pam,

Exactly! If each resort group was paying a flat fee (1/2 1/2, or 1/3 1/3 1/3), the charge would be the same for each. The estimate shows that they are not doing an equal split ($1,600,000 vs 1,200,000 a $400,000 difference). Hence, the next logical conclusion is that they are using a per room basis.

So, I guess we have two scenarios:

--- Scenario 1 (Flat Fee Basis):
Each resort group is supposed to be charged the same amount, but they aren't. Result:
1) The BWV/BWI is being overcharged by $400,000
2) The YC/BC/BCV is being undercharged by $400,000 (I hope this isn't the case)
3) The BWV/BWI is being overcharged by $200,000 and The YC/BC/BCV is being undercharged by $200,000

--- Scenario 2 (per Room Basis):
Each resort is supposed to have the same per room basis, but they don't. Result:
1) The BWV/BWI is being overcharged by $843,000
2) The YC/BC/BCV is being undercharged by $3,310,000 (doesn't seem likely)
3) Or some fraction of the two above.

All of the possibilities are large numbers!

Troy

 

[Kick it up a notch!]

DeeP,

Someone should tell the boat drivers then, that was not the way it was on my last trip.

Does anyone know if the valet is added in the transportation budget?

 

[DeeP]

Kick it up a notch,
That is really strange because that is the way the boats have run for all my trips staying at an Epcot resort for the past couple of years including my latest 2 trips to BCV and BWV in Sept and Nov respectfully.
I will be back in WDW in 2 weeks, I will make a point of asking the boat drivers to get the official word and will post when I return.

 

[Kick it up a notch!]

I am jealous, cause it is 0 degrees here and I am freezing my butt off!!!!!

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by PKS44
I am still not convinced this all makes sense and is fair...Dean it is true that the BWI is small compared to the YC/BC but is the BWV+BWI number of guests 1.5 times the size of the YC+BC+BCV number of guests? Because that is how they are dividing the costs up..they are starting with an assumption that the BWV +BWI guests use the bus 1.5 times as much as the YC+BC+BCV so about $1.5 million fo BW bus stops and about $1 million for YC+BC+BCV stops (which is two bus stops I might add)...this is where I am doubtful....if it were true then the per point costs still ought to come out pretty close:

I would expect an individual guest would use the busses about the same from the BWI or the YC/BC but I would expect the average DVC member would use the buses a little less than the regular deluxe guest would.

YC/BC has a total of about 1122 rooms plus the Villas adding another 142 units (with lockoff's). I don't know the occupancy usuals but if I assume 3 people per unit at the hotels and 4 for the villas, that's around 4000 at the the YC/BC composite. BW has 378 Inn rooms and 383 Villas and with the same assumptions you get only 2700 or so guests. Assuming the same total cost for each route (roughly), you would expect the total costs per guest for BW complex to be around 150% of those for he YC/BC complex. Figure that the BWV is more than 50% of the BW guests and BCV only some 15% or so of the YC/BC guests.


Thus I'd expect the bus costs to be about 150% per person for BWV compared to BCV based on the size. Also remember that BWV has the standard view rooms and therefore had more points owned per room overall raising the total difference ot maybe at least 200% BWV over BCV. As for 3.2 times, I suspect that's stretching it and doubt those numbers are accurate. The principle though that the bus and boat should cost more for BWV than BCV is sound, I'm not sure I agree with the sheer numbers as posted.

I'm not sure how the buses for each resort may share with others. Does either resort share with others like Swan, Dolphin, etc. Do they have the same number of buses/boats running at the same time? These factors could affect the cost dramatically. They could also have different contracts which might affect costs, especially with the economy the last couple of years.

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by TroyWDW
If each resort group was paying a flat fee (1/2 1/2, or 1/3 1/3 1/3), the charge would be the same for each.

Troy, if each resort group were charged the flat fee, wouldn't it be correct that BCV dues would still be less than BWV because of the way the resorts are dividing up the cost? If it were $1.2 to each resort group, the BCV would contribute $228,000 (19% of the resort total) to Transportation and BWV would contribute $696,000 to Transportation (58% of the BW resort total)? BWV would still be paying more into the "total" Transportation pot.

I do agree that BWV (and BCV) owners deserve a more detailed explanation of the Transportation costs.

 

[PKS44]

Troy --that is the thread and thank you for joining in here..I wish I could conference you in with me for my call on Monday when I chat with the DVC folks again because you have a great grasp of the issues...

I have poured over the budgets and found and not found some very VERY interesting things;

Nowhere does it say how Valet is paid for--and it is definitely paid for--the explanation under transportation is "Cost of WDW transportation provided to the Resort...perhaps Valet is folded into the Front Desk costs or maybe is somehow in the Transportation but it is not explained anywhere I can see..Front desk says it pays for Operation of the Front Desk operations and Resort Management -don't know if that includes valet parking..I don't think Valet is run by WDW transportation--the Valets do not wear purple pants anyway..

Now the other interesting things I found were in comparing 2003 and 2004 Budgets--and perhaps this deserves a whole new thread of its own:

For 2003 the Budget is calculated for 531 Vacation Homes and is $18.6MM
For 2004 it is for 383 Vacation Homes and is $15MM

How did the number of homes go down? No wonder our dues went up...fewer Homes are paying for them with some but not a huge reduction in the budget...(28% reduction in Homes, 18% reduction in the budget.

One area that went WAYYYYYY Down was Transportation which was $2.8MM in 2003 and only $0.9MM in 2004. that's good...
but Maintenance on fewer homes actually went UP from $2.7MM to $2.8MM
Fewer Homes means lower Housekeeping at least --$5MM went down to $4.1MM....

Anybody know how the number of HOMES went DOWN ?(both budgets do not count studios and one bedrooms as separate in their definitions)

And what changed with transportation to cut it by 2/3 from 2003 to 2004? That is a HUGE decrease in transportation costs. $2.1MM! Could this be a service reduction? A BIG SERVICE REDUCTION?

There may be logical explanations for all of this--I certainly hope there are--but they are not apparent by looking at the budgets side by side, word by word, line by line...

 

[Lisa P.]

DeeP, you're right, there's a dock at YC/BC. YC/BC probably pays for its maintenance, spreading the costs over a larger number of guest rooms than BW, when paying for the maint of the BW dock. I suspect the marina at YC (separate from the friendship dock) is a profitable concern and not considered within the transportation budget.

Aren't the valets under bell services? If so, that's totally separate from transportation.

 

[TroyWDW]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Troy, if each resort group were charged the flat fee, wouldn't it be correct that BCV dues would still be less than BWV because of the way the resorts are dividing up the cost? If it were $1.2 to each resort group, the BCV would contribute $228,000 (19% of the resort total) to Transportation and BWV would contribute $696,000 to Transportation (58% of the BW resort total)? BWV would still be paying more into the "total" Transportation pot.

I do agree that BWV (and BCV) owners deserve a more detailed explanation of the Transportation costs.

Pam, I think we are saying the same thing. You took the calculation down one more level, to each individual resort. My latest discussion has been based at the Resort Group level: BWV/BWI versus YC/BC/BCV. The Group level is where the significant discrepancy begins and is then passed down to each of the individual resorts.

As you suggested, let's assume the flat fee for each resort GROUP is $1.2 MM. Then based upon the utilization factors:
BWV's Annual Transportation Cost = $1,200,000 x 0.58 = $696,000
BCV's Annual Transportation Cost = $1,200,000 x 0.19 = $228,000

As I stated in my previous post, we have at least two possible costing models: 1) Flat Fee; 2) per Room.
In both scenarios, the discrepancy between the resort Groups is very large and warrants further inspection.

Some have suggested a third costing model that is based upon occupancy and that the number of actual guests explains the transportation cost differences. The occupancy model would be a more detailed variant of the "per Room" model. But, the occupancy model would need to demonstrate that the YC/BC/BCV Resort Group has 2x the occupancy of the BWV/BWI Resort Group in order to explain the 2x cost difference. I don't view a 2x occupancy difference as very likely. I do agree that an occupancy model could explain about half of the transportation cost differences, but it doesn't explain the other half. So, there must be some other factor at play.

I'm sure there is a good explanation for the large differences in the transportation costs. But, I think it is worth asking the question and gaining further understanding. The first explanation given by DVCMC wasn't very accurate...

Troy

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Originally posted by PKS44

How did the number of homes go down?

Only thing I could think of is if some were not included in inventory due to availability because of rehab. But that may not be why.

 

[TroyWDW]

Originally posted by PKS44
For 2003 the Budget is calculated for 531 Vacation Homes and is $18.6MM
For 2004 it is for 383 Vacation Homes and is $15MM

How did the number of homes go down? No wonder our dues went up...fewer Homes are paying for them with some but not a huge reduction in the budget...(28% reduction in Homes, 18% reduction in the budget.

Paul, can you double-check. I think you might be comparing reports from two different resorts?

Troy

 

[PKS44]

Troy-

i am looking at the mailed Budget from 2003 and the mailed budget for 2004--now I only own at BWv so I don't know how I could have any other resorts budget..the one thing that is different is the 2004 budget says it is from Disney's Boardwalk Villas Condo Assoc, Inc..the 2003 says it is from Disney's Vacation Condo Assoc, inc--but both are the line by line explanation of Annual dues...that has to be resort specific does it not? maybe they sent me the OKW budget by mistake last year...that makes the most sense---since I think OKW official name is just DVC assoc...is OKW 531 units?

 

[drusba]

Unfortunately, they did send you the OKW report which is officially The Disney Vacation Club Condo Association. As I understand it, the costs of the busses and boats shared by the Epcot resorts are split equally between S/D and YC/BC/BCV and BW/BWI. The costs for each grouping are then split based on estimated room occupancy between the different resorts within each major grouping. BWV thus pays 58% of the total BWV/BWI portion. S/D then has an extra cost on top of its share because it often has a separate bus that goes to MK. The BW group gets an extra cost because it has that Coronado Springs/DD bus that the other Epcot resorts do not; it shares that cost with Coronado. I know most BWV owners could do without that bus but it is a chargeable cost to the BW group. Also, BW has available more courtesy vans than YC/BC/BCV, mainly because of the boardwalk and convention hall, and those are chargeable to the BW group. Whether any of that is fair or not to BWV owners may be an issue but the BW resort does, as a result, have higher "transportation" charges than the South side.

 

[DeeP]

drusba,
The bus from CSR to boardwalk has not been in operation for almost 2 yrs if not longer. As for the conference facilities, YC/BC/BCV complex also has very extensive conference/special event facilities. Actually, don't quote me because I did not count the number of conference/banquet rooms in each facility but I do believe YC/BC/BCV complex has more conference/banquet rooms and is actully larger than the BWI/BWV complex conference facilites.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by drusba
...(snip)..... The BW group gets an extra cost because it has that Coronado Springs/DD bus that the other Epcot resorts do not; it shares that cost with Coronado. I know most BWV owners could do without that bus but it is a chargeable cost to the BW group. .......

That bus service was discontinued at least two years ago. My original information source for that is from the Transportation Forum - Chip 'n Dale Express, a CM who until recently drove a bus for Disney Transportation. He just transferred to the new PC value resort staff.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that neither CS or the BWV/BWI complex is still being charged for that route.

 

[drusba]

That bus was there in June when we went. It was no longer making the direct run back and forth, which was discontinued. Instead, it was making a CS/BW/DD/CS run.

 

[freediverdude]

It sounds to me like each group (BWI and BWV, YC/BC/BCV. and S/D) is paying based on some utilization figure, like they've taken samples of how many riders are going where or something. And this would lead to a larger overall figure for the BWI/BWV complex, because of all the businesses on the Boardwalk and all the extra people going there to dine or shop or spend an evening out, without being a guest of either BWI or BWV. There would be a lot of people heading from theme parks or Downtown Disney to the Boardwalk on the Epcot resort buses, even though they're not staying overnight there, and that usage cost would be borne 58% by the BWV owners. I have a feeling that this would be why the BWI/BWV would be paying more than 1/3 of the transportation costs for the Epcot resort area. Unfortunately for the BWV owners, Spoodles and Flying Fish and ESPN Club and others are popular places for people staying at other resorts to visit- not that Cape May Cafe and Yachtman's Steakhouse aren't, but just the whole Boardwalk entertainment complex together is probably much more popular.