DVC explanation of difference in Transportation budgets at BCV vs BWV

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by freediverdude
Unfortunately for the BWV owners, Spoodles and Flying Fish and ESPN Club and others are popular places for people staying at other resorts to visit- not that Cape May Cafe and Yachtman's Steakhouse aren't, but just the whole Boardwalk entertainment complex together is probably much more popular.

Not only are the restaurants popular but it is a different set-up. The Boardwalk is not a resort. It is a an entertainment complex at WDW that also includes the BWI/BWV resort.

However, I don't think that should have a real drastic effect on the BW transportation budget.

Just another guess -- Are the DD buses also shared with SW/D and Y/B? I can't recall.

 

[freediverdude]

Well that's kind of my point. The Boardwalk complex also includes an entertainment complex, and so will have greater transportation needs. I'm not an owner, but in my opinion the BWV owners should be pushing for the Boardwalk entertainment venues to pay for a share of the transportation, like i'm sure the Downtown Disney businesses probably help pay for the Downtown Disney buses. This would be much more fair to the BWV owners, than having to subsidize the entertainment complex.

 

[lenshanem]

I edited out my post cause it was too emotional. Sorry guys!

 

[Shamus]

Let me see If I got this straight ...I took the 2004 Transportation Budget Estimates (929,258 & 238,756) Divided by DVC % of Total Resorts (58% & 19%)and ended up with the BW Complex paying 345,558 or 27.5% more (1,602,000 vs. 1,256,000) then the YC/BC Complex.

I know this doesn't explain the difference but at least the Complex way of looking at the numbers is only 27.5% as compared to the 141% on a per point basis.


OK lets say that the Fees are calculated on a mixture of Flat Rate and Useage. I mean the buses are scheduled every 20 mins. and additional ones are added as necessary for crowds.

So lets say $500,000 is charged to each Resort as the flat fee and the rest is for Usage (1,102,000 & 756,610). That would mean BW Complex has 145% the usage of YC/BC Complex or 3 riders for every 2.

Is this feasable????? Just a thought

Shamus

 

[owensamo]

I don't own at BWV, but we did stay there in July (peakish season), and we stayed at BCV last March, so I have had some experience with both busses.

In both cases, we had no problems with bus service. However, since BC/YC is on the route before the BW complex, I wonder if BW gets more "dedicated" busses than BC/YC.

What I mean by this is that when we were at BCV, we never saw an empty bus pull up to the bus stop as the busses were never full when they got to us. So at the very least, the cost of the busses that we took were split with riders from the Swan and Dolphin.

However, when we were at BWV, we *did* get at least one empty bus on an MK route. The buss then stopped at the Swan before continuing on to the MK - still with comfortable room on the bus for more people (standing, at least - there may even have been seats available).

If this happens more often at BWV - more busses have to be dispatched there empty because the busses that show up are already almost full, but still accept some passengers - then perhaps that could in part account for higher transportation costs. If they look at the total number of busses dispatched, or the total number that pick up passengers from a specific resort/stop, the per-resort bus throughput numbers could well be different for BW and YC/BC simply because BW gets half-full busses and has to call empty ones to pick up the slack.

Either way, it does sound like there is an odd discrepancy that *should* be explained to owners.

I did think of something else - since it's a transportation budget, could the cost of courtesy vans for DVC sales vists be factored in as well? I know that the sales office is/was at BWV, and they run those shuttles from the other resorts and the parks for people who want to take a look at the models and potentially purchase - does that come from the resort budget? Or is that separate and paid for by DVD?

Mur!

 

[TroyWDW]

Originally posted by Shamus
OK lets say that the Fees are calculated on a mixture of Flat Rate and Useage. I mean the buses are scheduled every 20 mins. and additional ones are added as necessary for crowds.

So lets say $500,000 is charged to each Resort as the flat fee and the rest is for Usage (1,102,000 & 756,610). That would mean BW Complex has 145% the usage of YC/BC Complex or 3 riders for every 2.

Is this feasable????? Just a thought

Shamus

Shamus,

Thanks for the suggestion. That would be another costing model possibility. But, consider the size of each complex. The YC/BC/BCV Group is about 1.5 times larger than the BWV/BWI Group in terms of the number of rooms. What's the probability that the smaller complex has significantly more total riders? On a percentage basis it would need to be approximately 2x more riders.


The bottom line is.

1) If it is a flat rate costing model then why is there a discrepancy between the BWV/BWI resort group & the YC/BC/BCV resort group ($1.6 MM vs $1.2 MM). The answer may be that BWV/BWI is assessed an additional $400,000 for some service. I think it is fair for us to ask for an explanation of that $400,000 service.

2) If it is a "per Room", or "per Occupant" basis then why is there an even larger difference between the resort groups. This costing model shows at least a 2x difference between YC/BC/BCV and BWV/BWI. There may very well be additional buses, vans, etc. that are provided for the BWV/BWI resorts. But, there would have to be an estimated $843,000 of additional buses, vans, etc. That's a lot of additional services and I would like to see an explanation.

3) There exists some other logical costing model that DVCMC uses. I think it is fair to ask for a brief explanation why it results with a seemingly strange discrepancy between the YC/BC/BCV and BWV/BWI resorts. Remember, the first time Paul asked this question, the DVCMC finance person responded that it was due to the YC/BC subsidizing the BCV. Under further examination, that explanation does not appear to be accurate and DVCMC is doing more homework.

I'm very confident that DVCMC will provide a reasonable explanation. Thanks again for contributing to the discussion.

Troy

 

[TroyWDW]

Originally posted by owensamo
I did think of something else - since it's a transportation budget, could the cost of courtesy vans for DVC sales vists be factored in as well? I know that the sales office is/was at BWV, and they run those shuttles from the other resorts and the parks for people who want to take a look at the models and potentially purchase - does that come from the resort budget? Or is that separate and paid for by DVD?

Mur!

Mur, I would hope that DVD is paying for the sales vans since it is strictly a sales activity. I don't think you and I should be subsidizing DVD's sales activities and I expect that we aren't.

Troy

 

[inky dinky doo]

Originally posted by owensamo
I don't own at BWV, but we did stay there in July (peakish season), and we stayed at BCV last March, so I have had some experience with both busses.

In both cases, we had no problems with bus service. However, since BC/YC is on the route before the BW complex, I wonder if BW gets more "dedicated" busses than BC/YC.

What I mean by this is that when we were at BCV, we never saw an empty bus pull up to the bus stop as the busses were never full when they got to us. So at the very least, the cost of the busses that we took were split with riders from the Swan and Dolphin.

However, when we were at BWV, we *did* get at least one empty bus on an MK route. The buss then stopped at the Swan before continuing on to the MK - still with comfortable room on the bus for more people (standing, at least - there may even have been seats available).

If this happens more often at BWV - more busses have to be dispatched there empty because the busses that show up are already almost full, but still accept some passengers - then perhaps that could in part account for higher transportation costs. If they look at the total number of busses dispatched, or the total number that pick up passengers from a specific resort/stop, the per-resort bus throughput numbers could well be different for BW and YC/BC simply because BW gets half-full busses and has to call empty ones to pick up the slack.

You know, Mur, you raise an interesting point -- something that's been puzzling me ever since we stayed at the BCV in December. The BWV is the last stop on that particular bus route, yet we had to stand far more often when traveling to and from the BCV. I wonder if they do dispatch special buses to the BWV. I don't recall ever having to stand when we stayed there, and the buses were far less filled when we got on at the Boardwalk than those we got on at the Beach Club. Makes you wanna go . . . hmmmmmmmmm.

Pat

286 days and counting . . . again!

 

[Tagrel]

Interesting thread... and I only had time to skim quickly (probably missing MANY points). A couple questions:

Having stayed at YC and BC several times, we ALWAYS found the bus stop almost empty at both YC and BC, while there were always so MANY people at Boardwalk... Would the fact that YC/BC is more of a convention hotel play into these usage numbers?

Also - don't the other resorts run special busses to the Boardwalk so that people can hit the clubs/restaurants there? Do BWV owners pay for those buses as well?

Sorry if I missed all this, and ignore me if all this was already discussed!

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by Tagrel
Also - don't the other resorts run special busses to the Boardwalk so that people can hit the clubs/restaurants there? Do BWV owners pay for those buses as well?

No they don't. I think they should run buses a la DD buses since that would also alleviate the parking problems BWV members have mentioned. The CSR was the only one that had/has a bus that stops at BWV. There is some debate whether that is still running.

 

[Tagrel]

Originally posted by PamOKW
No they don't. I think they should run buses a la DD buses since that would also alleviate the parking problems BWV members have mentioned. The CSR was the only one that had/has a bus that stops at BWV. There is some debate whether that is still running.

Thanks. I keep reading where people say to take the 'bus to the Boardwalk' from other resorts in the evening, but I didn't think there WAS one...

 

[Shamus]

[

Originally posted by TroyWDW
Shamus,

Thanks for the suggestion. That would be another costing model possibility. But, consider the size of each complex. The YC/BC/BCV Group is about 1.5 times larger than the BWV/BWI Group in terms of the number of rooms. What's the probability that the smaller complex has significantly more total riders? On a percentage basis it would need to be approximately 2x more riders.

Troy,

I totally understand what you are saying but when you consider a few of differences between the resorts that have been mentioned a 3 to 2 ratio seems possible and probable to me.

1. YC/BC host more Convention type groups which would likely result is less transportation use.

2. With a higher percentage of Villas the number of guests/room is likely higher at the BW complex.

3. IMHO a very very small percentage of YC/BC guest use the boat to/from EPCOT and walk instead. I would be surprised if YC/BC had 25% the Boat readership that BW does for this Park even when you consider the fair number of BW walkers. I know that the BW has more walkers to MGM but I DON'T think the difference there would be as great as for EPCOT.

4. Boardwalk has additional traffic due to the Entertainment district. I know from past personal experience that a number of BW "Visitors" come over on the Boats from MGM/EPCOT or the Bus from DD for example. (However, If these users are included in the calculation I would also be curious as to where the "INCOME" for the Commercial Establishments BWV supports would come into play in the budget.)

In any case, I only offer this as a possibility and look forward to hearing from DVC what the true situation is, as on the Surface there appears to be a major imbalance.

Shamus

 

[PKS44]

The idea that the larger resort (YC family) filling up the SHARED bus necessitating an additional bus be sent to BWV is a reason that the smaller resort (BW family) should pay $400,000 more a year is worthy of Alice in Wonderland---that is truly a warped sense of how costs should be shared. The ones using more should pay more..That extra bus would never be necessary if they did not use more of the service... It all is totally dependent on where the bus stops first...Think about it if the stops were in the reverse order. The YC would find that there were not enough spots on the bus and an extra bus would be sent to take the extra YC guests...which is really the reason for the need for another bus.

The notion that the BWV owners would be paying 58% of the costs of bringing people to the restaurants and clubs is equally galling.

Dean- your post is a ways back but it should be pretty clear that your calculations miss the point completely...others have already spelled out what is going on---it is established BW pays $400000 more a year to share a bus route and boat route with YC/BC/BCV--what are we getting for that extra $400000 a year?

Paul

 

[Kick it up a notch!]

Paul,

Please post after your conversation, I am curious as to the mysteries of the transportation saga.

 

[TroyWDW]

Originally posted by Shamus
Troy,

I totally understand what you are saying but when you consider a few of differences between the resorts that have been mentioned a 3 to 2 ratio seems possible and probable to me.

1. YC/BC host more Convention type groups which would likely result is less transportation use.

2. With a higher percentage of Villas the number of guests/room is likely higher at the BW complex.

3. IMHO a very very small percentage of YC/BC guest use the boat to/from EPCOT and walk instead. I would be surprised if YC/BC had 25% the Boat readership that BW does for this Park even when you consider the fair number of BW walkers. I know that the BW has more walkers to MGM but I DON'T think the difference there would be as great as for EPCOT.

4. Boardwalk has additional traffic due to the Entertainment district. I know from past personal experience that a number of BW "Visitors" come over on the Boats from MGM/EPCOT or the Bus from DD for example. (However, If these users are included in the calculation I would also be curious as to where the "INCOME" for the Commercial Establishments BWV supports would come into play in the budget.)

In any case, I only offer this as a possibility and look forward to hearing from DVC what the true situation is, as on the Surface there appears to be a major imbalance.

Shamus

Shamus,

I think I understand what you are suggesting. Let me reflect how I understand your statements with some of the numbers that we have.

YC/BC/BCV together have "effectively" 1500 hotel rooms
BWI/BWV together have "effectively" 900 hotel rooms

YC/BC/BCV annual transportation budget is estimated to be $1,200,000
BWI/BWV annual transportation budget is estimated to be $1,600,000

If I evaluate the transportation costs on a per room basis then:
YC/BC/BCV = $1,200,000 / 1500 = $800 per room annually
BWI/BWV = $1,600,000 / 900 = $1778 per room annually

The ratio of $1778 / $800 is much more than a 3/2 ratio. It is a 4.5/2 ratio. This would mean that for every 4 people at the YC/BC/BCV bus stop and boat launch there are 9 people at the BWI/BWV bus stop and boat launch. This ratio of 9/4 would need to be observed throughout an entire year (on average).

If the ratio was closer to 3/2 it would be more explainable as you've suggested. But, the calculations (as I see them) suggest a wider discrepancy of 9/4. This large ratio is what surprises me. Thanks again for contributing and I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative.

I'm sure DVCMC will have a clear explanation for this anomaly in the Annual Report.

Troy

 

[PamOKW]

Just adding another question -- I would assume/hope that the Disney parks also contribute to the cost of running the boats. They are no longer solely a mode of transportation for just hotel guests but are used by many other Disney guests as well to get to and from MGM, Epcot and the entertainment area of BW. I can see where the resort-to-resort traffic on the buses might be charged just to the resorts but the boat would seem to be pushing it.

 

[joepoe]

Originally posted by PKS44
I am still not convinced this all makes sense and is fair...Dean it is true that the BWI is small compared to the YC/BC but is the BWV+BWI number of guests 1.5 times the size of the YC+BC+BCV number of guests? Because that is how they are dividing the costs up..they are starting with an assumption that the BWV +BWI guests use the bus 1.5 times as much as the YC+BC+BCV so about $1.5 million fo BW bus stops and about $1 million for YC+BC+BCV stops (which is two bus stops I might add)...this is where I am doubtful....if it were true then the per point costs still ought to come out pretty close:
...
by the same token when you get down to the PER POINT costs it ought to come out about the same and it does not-- ...I have a call in to my contact guy for more clarification of the utilization estimates.

PKS44, I think you have come across a major mis-calculation of cost allocation by DVC. Good work. We need to see if this gets adjusted.

 

[PKS44]

They are still gathering the information as to how the BW resort guests are assigned a higher transportation utilization than the YC/BC/BCV guests. AN answer may or may not be forthcoming by Wednesday. I will post when I get the answer.

 

[BWVDee]

Thank you for taking the time to find this out. I am very curious to hear what they say.

 

[PamOKW]

PKS44, sounds like you may have uncovered something. If they don't have a ready answer they must be double-checking what was done and why.