DVC Commercial Use Policy added to POS

[disney54us]

May I suggest that anyone who beleives this please investigate the timesharing industry as a whole of which DVC is just one, one of the better ones, but still just one. If you (using it as a general term, not you disney54us) don't learn to work the system then you are forever going to be disappointed with the results you get from the system. And of course blaming everyone along the way but yourself (again not you disney54us) and complaining about many who have taken the time to learn and work the system.

Y-ASK

Mmm, food for thought. Is it learn how to work or manipulate the system??
Why buy all these points, to rent half? Why not buy what one can afford w/maint. fees. A bit naive, on my part since I actually bought DVC to take vacations and get away from the rat race, and not be working the system.

DVC management has spoken. So for those who don't like what they are doing, I guess you will have to live with it! Done deal!

 

[crisi]

I'd change "what Disney sees as wrong" to "what Disney sees as damaging."

There isn't anything 'wrong' with renting your points. I'm not even convinced speculative renting is immoral or unethical (after a lot of thought, I can call day by day at 11 months), but:

1) Rentals provide a low cost alternative to booking through Disney:

a) This means that its much harder for CRO to rent "traded" property out at good exchange rates, driving up exchange rates for all of us.

b) It also hurts Disney itself, who is now competing with members to put people in its own hotel rooms for a profit.

c) It further hurts Disney because it creates a situation where purchasing a contract is less attractive than just having the flexibility to rent points. Want CRV or the Poly or more DVC rooms? - someone needs to be willing to buy them, and the price per point needs to adjust for inflation. Rental rates have only adjusted a little - its a GOOD DEAL to rent points - even over buying a contract if you are willing to put up with the risk. That's creating price pressure on what Disney can charge for their points.

2) Rentals put Disney in an awkward position

a) If something goes wrong with the rental, they now have a guest standing at the front desk, confirmation in hand, children gathered around excited to see Mickey, and no room because the member cancelled it three months ago. While we seldom hear of that happening here through these boards, I suspect it happens more often than we hear about it.

b) Renting guests don't always understand what they are getting - anyone remember the thread about the renter going ballistic on housekeeping because his room wasn't getting cleaned every day?

c) Members who don't rent, or rent rarely, aren't thrilled with speculative rentals, the perception of not being able to take advantage of the seven month window at BWV/BCV because other owners have rented those rooms to non-members over F&W, and, I hate to say it, some outright snobbery against "renters." This causes decreases in member satisfaction.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I just received a phone call from DVC. I had sent them an email asking about the new policy, and it's intent.

The individual I spoke to said the DVC leadership team "was really focusing on this issue" and was "really working hard on how to deal with commercial renting".

She mentioned how they were asking for the address and phone number of guests if you book a reservation that is not in your own name (I hadn't heard of this), thinking that it might discourage commercial renting. She also said that the commercial renters were getting around past hurdles, so DVC is looking into other things they can put into place to further discourage "commercial renters" and "speculative booking" (she actually used both terms). She said this is an ongoing discussion within the DVC "leadership team".

Interesting! I didn't expect a phone call but was glad they responded!

yep we had to provide the address and phone number for a guest we have coming with us. thats definately a good thing

 

[disney54us]

i agree, but opponents would argue about how the testing was being done and whether it was conclusive and accurate. Whether it was catching enough bad guys while not wrongly catching too many good guys. why would any one not doing it want to be at risk of being blamed by poor accuracy of reults

I think the same thing might be feared by some here. why would anyone not commercially renting but at the same time making 20 ressies per 12 months want to be scrutinized and have their account micromanaged?

of course these legit folks should never have any issues but after all it will be reviewed by people, who we all know see things differently.

thats all my concern is, will it help stop commercial renting while not harming the legit members

I dont know, I guess we will have to see

I used that as a example and made sure not to get into Drug testing of students which would start a whole other debate. That is why in my example I stated caught not tested. You could use any other scenario, I was just trying to point out that if you are not a commercial renter, don't worry. Again, I don't think those using there points for pleasure are going to be micromanaged, then again we could start with what ifs about anything DVC might do.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I just received a phone call from DVC. I had sent them an email asking about the new policy, and it's intent.

The individual I spoke to said the DVC leadership team "was really focusing on this issue" and was "really working hard on how to deal with commercial renting".

.....She also said that the commercial renters were getting around past hurdles, so DVC is looking into other things they can put into place to further discourage "commercial renters" and "speculative booking" (she actually used both terms).

this is the entire problem IMO, where there is a will there is a way. putting all these restrictions on(one transfer rule, 20 ressies, no name changing) is hurting the membership more than it is stopping commercial renting

none of these will ever stop commercial renting

I just dont get it, there are web sites, ebay listings, red flags must be on accounts--start shutting down some of these memberships, dont keep putting on more restrictions in the hopes it will go away

action speaks louder than words, until they start shutting a few of these operations down they will ALL continue

 

[disney54us]

this is the entire problem IMO, where there is a will there is a way. putting all these restrictions on(one transfer rule, 20 ressies, no name changing) is hurting the membership more than it is stopping commercial renting

none of these will ever stop commercial renting

I just dont get it, there are web sites, ebay listings, red flags must be on accounts--start shutting down some of these memberships, dont keep putting on more restrictions in the hopes it will go away

action speaks louder than words, until they start shutting a few of these operations down they will ALL continue

, Yes shut down the memberships, one or two and I think the rest will learn real quick.

 

[InstImpres]

Readily admit...late to the party here. I read about 90% of the thread and don't see if anyone got a clarification on the 20 reservations. Often my stays are many reservations (which are ultimately linked but show with several confirmation numbers). I will take 2 or 3 nights that are available and waitlist for the others, I have had a 5 night stay be 4 confirmation numbers, so is that 4 reservations?

TIA

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I used that as a example and made sure not to get into Drug testing of students which would start a whole other debate. That is why in my example I stated caught not tested. You could use any other scenario, I was just trying to point out that if you are not a commercial renter, don't worry. Again, I don't think those using there points for pleasure are going to be micromanaged, then again we could start with what ifs about anything DVC might do.

i agree, I am simply stating that some might fear this

Enforcement of this policy will be the responsibility of DVC Member Services as follows. For each reservation made by a DVC Member, Member Services shall determine, before confirming the reservation, the number of reservations made by such DVC Member which are occurring or have occurred in any rolling twelve-month period in which the reservation then being made will occur.

that is pretty much micro managed IMO. its 20 ressies and then the account is looked at to see usage history, then its up to the member to prove those ressies were for personal use

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Readily admit...late to the party here. I read about 90% of the thread and don't see if anyone got a clarification on the 20 reservations. Often my stays are many reservations (which are ultimately linked but show with several confirmation numbers). I will take 2 or 3 nights that are available and waitlist for the others, I have had a 5 night stay be 4 confirmation numbers, so is that 4 reservations?

TIA

I dont believe theres an answer, unless DVC Mike asked during his call. theres questions of that which you describe above and cancelled ressies, etc etc

its a valid concern. I had about a dozen ressies myself the past 12 months if you count all that--with a measly 250 points

the policy is not well written

 

[TisBit]

I'd change "what Disney sees as wrong" to "what Disney sees as damaging."

There isn't anything 'wrong' with renting your points. I'm not even convinced speculative renting is immoral or unethical (after a lot of thought, I can call day by day at 11 months), but:

This is actually quite correct. Everyone has the same opportunity to make the same reservations at the same time. Even if DVC shut down commercial renting as a whole (with their magic pixie dust), those contracts would be sold to non-renters who would still be making reservations, many of which are going to be in those peak times.

I think the biggest impact of speculative renting, is when the rental doesn't take place because they couldn't get a rentee....they cancel a couple days before and someone on the wait list didn't get the room because of this. The renter then just makes new reservations in hopes of renting that time. In this scenario everyone loses that owns DVC because it causes rooms to go without revenue....

Also, I would be pretty safe to guess that there are a larger percentage of "renters" on these boards, merely because this is where renting is facilitated. Most DVC owners probably have never really even thought about renting! So the heated debate about the changes from MS will probably go unnoticed by most DVC owners.

 

[TisBit]

I dont believe theres an answer, unless DVC Mike asked during his call. theres questions of that which you describe above and cancelled ressies, etc etc

its a valid concern. I had about a dozen ressies myself the past 12 months if you count all that--with a measly 250 points

the policy is not well written

But remember, members are not limited to 20 ressies a year...I think that is a huge thing to keep in mind. You can have 50 reservations a year, but as long as your point balances and reservations make sense, you won't (shouldn't) have a problem.

 

[Brian Noble]

Regardless of how you define your own actions (renter, commercial renter, personal user) the point of this post is that Disney is taking steps to correcting something they see as being wrong.

I've said it earlier in this thread but it bears repeating. Anyone who rents is in competition with Disney. And, Disney is not known for its benevolent acceptance of friendly competition, any more than, say, Microsoft is.

That doesn't mean occasional renting is "wrong", or that you shouldn't do it. But, you do need to know what you are up against.

On a vaguely related note. I'm aware that any inbound II exchanger who is using a guest certificate can be asked very pointedly how they came to obtain that guest certificate. I've heard some people claim that anyone who reveals their GC was paid for in some way is walked out the door, though I'm not sure whether those reports are credible

This is a particularly sensive issue for Dinsey, because inbound exchanges---especially those that use Accomodation Certificates---are ridiculously inexpensive.

 

[InstImpres]

But remember, members are not limited to 20 ressies a year...I think that is a huge thing to keep in mind. You can have 50 reservations a year, but as long as your point balances and reservations make sense, you won't (shouldn't) have a problem.

My concern is more how the counting will occur as it relates to time management (thus adding additional dues). If my reservation where I waitlist is equal to 4 reservations as I got the nights one by one than I could hit 20 pretty quickly. This could becoming very time consuming for MS making for long hold times and than the need for more staffing. JMHO

 

[TisBit]

My concern is more how the counting will occur as it relates to time management (thus adding additional dues). If my reservation where I waitlist is equal to 4 reservations as I got the nights one by one than I could hit 20 pretty quickly. This could becoming very time consuming for MS making for long hold times and than the need for more staffing. JMHO

But it doesn't sound like that is what they are going after here. They are less concerned with the people that are using their memberships for themselves than someone using it for others. While this could be an issue in the future, I would think that they would have to have a different type of system to show someone just abusing member services (by frequent changes, etc).

Plus a quick look at that shows it is one continous stay. Same as with split stays. Even if you have 22 ressies, but most of them involve split stays (one continous stay, two resorts) that would not be in anyway construed as commercial renting.

Same thing, if you book every major holiday for yourself, there is nothing that DVC has to be concerned with!

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I've said it earlier in this thread but it bears repeating. Anyone who rents is in competition with Disney. And, Disney is not known for its benevolent acceptance of friendly competition, any more than, say, Microsoft is.

That doesn't mean occasional renting is "wrong", or that you shouldn't do it. But, you do need to know what you are up against.

On a vaguely related note. I'm aware that any inbound II exchanger who is using a guest certificate can be asked very pointedly how they came to obtain that guest certificate. I've heard some people claim that anyone who reveals their GC was paid for in some way is walked out the door, though I'm not sure whether those reports are credible

This is a particularly sensive issue for Dinsey, because inbound exchanges---especially those that use Accomodation Certificates---are ridiculously inexpensive.

maybe Disney/DVC is just trying to get their ducks in a row before undertaking action, but its surprising why they have let these other web sites and ebay listings continue

again take some real action and stop simply diminishing the flexibility of our memberships

 

[disney54us]

My concern is more how the counting will occur as it relates to time management (thus adding additional dues). If my reservation where I waitlist is equal to 4 reservations as I got the nights one by one than I could hit 20 pretty quickly. This could becoming very time consuming for MS making for long hold times and than the need for more staffing. JMHO

They already know the people who have a red flag. They are use to waitlist reservations, large groups of families. This is in part what they present to us when they are selling DVC. They are now being more specific about "Commercial Renters" so that it is in print for all members to read. I am sure this came from legal. You now have it in writing so there won't be the' I didn't know that' game.

 

[DBorges]

Right from the MULTI-SITE PUBLIC OFFERING BOOK

SECTION 12 PAGE 25

12. PERSONAL USE AND ENJOYMENT

The purchase Of an Ownership Intrest should be based upon its value as a vaction experince or for spending Leisure time and, Not considered for the purposes of aquiring an appreciating ivestment or with the expectation the the ownership interest may be rented or resold

Ownership interest are offered for personal use and enjoyment onlyand should not be purchased by any prospective Purchaser for resale or as an investment oppertunity or with any expectaion of achieving rental income,capitol appreciation or any other financial return or valuable benifit including a tax benifit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their ownership interest would have to complete a t a substantial disadvanatge with DVD in the sale or rental of its Owners interest. The many restrictions unpon the use of an ownership interest may adversely affect its marketablity or rentablity.


So in a nut shell we created this problem (we as the membership) and people who are doing the renting for profit not renting the balance of points.

Are the one you should point the fingers at not the everuday member.

The creation of web site to sell rentals for PROFIT not like here on dis (he who will remain un-named) is agaist the whole purpose and the rules that we all have to deal with

 

[disney54us]

Section 12 Page 25, that's all she wrote kids.

 

[Y-ASK]

Is it learn how to work or manipulate the system??

It depends on your definiation of work and manipulate. I would say that "working the system" means to utilize every aspect of the system within the rules of the system. To "manipulate" in my opinion would mean to circumvent the rules and place yourself ahead of everyone else. I'm talking about "working the system" within the rules as defined by DVC and not some member of a forum.

Why buy all these points, to rent half? Why not buy what one can afford w/maint. fees.

Well if you don't get it by now, then I guess I don't know how to explain it.

A bit naive, on my part since I actually bought DVC to take vacations and get away from the rat race, and not be working the system.

Exactly!!!! It is the naive who don't work the system that complain the most when something doesn't go the way they want it to. And by the way working the system has nothing to do with the rat race. It's about getting the most out of your hard earned dollar by working within the rules as defined by DVC. Don't like the rules, buy some where else, but I can tell you this evey timeshare I've ever looked into has a system and just about all allow owners to rent.

Y-ASK

 

[Brian Noble]

Ownership interest are offered for personal use and enjoyment onlyand should not be purchased by any prospective Purchaser for resale or as an investment oppertunity or with any expectaion of achieving rental income,capitol appreciation or any other financial return or valuable benifit including a tax benifit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their ownership interest would have to complete a t a substantial disadvanatge with DVD in the sale or rental of its Owners interest. The many restrictions unpon the use of an ownership interest may adversely affect its marketablity or rentablity.

This paragraph is not a limitation, it is a disclosure. Its purpose is to defend against anyone wanting to sue, saying "My guide told me all the ways I could make money! They showed me how much Disney gets for their rooms, and implied I could get the same amount. I didn't, and it's all your fault!"