DVC Commercial Use Policy added to POS

[timmac]

The great mystery to me is how strong cash business is for DVC rooms. Our trading values keep getting worse, not to mention the addition of the $95 fee which some have suggested is related to the deterioration of bookings for cash villas.

Others claim that the cash rooms are frequently full and people are unable to book a desired villa thru CRO. I don't know what to believe.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a DVC owner, but I have rented points for an upcoming trip, not that I believe that causes any bias in my view.

I think rather than asking how strong is the desire for DVC rooms, you need to ask "which rooms"? Even note that your statement says "desired villa". If someone comes to CRO looking for a 2 bedroom villa at BCV during F&W, or a GV just about anywhere, it seems they're likely to get turned away.

On the other hand, when I go to the web site to check availability just for kicks (especially shorter term, e.g. less than 60 days), my hotel of choice is almost always not available, but they suggestively sell a villa at SSR instead. (Honestly, it seems SSR almost always has availability)

Thinking back only a few months, many guests staying at some of the All Stars resorts were being called not long before their trip and offered free upgrades to Studios (or even 1BR in some cases I think) at SSR. To me that suggests plenty of available stock, and fairly low demand overall.

 

[Y-ASK]

Not true. Marriott has it as well, as do some newer Westgate and PAHIO offerings.

Speaking of Marriott and knowing how to work the system; Marriott is another high priced resort system that attracts a lot of people. But many learn the hard way that if you want the exact date you want you need to buy two timeshares and not just one. By owning two timeshares with Marriott you get to book at the 13 month window, a full 30 days before the 12 month window that everyone else gets. And if you know what you're doing you can even get a week earlier by booking two reservations. It's all within the rules but if you don't take the time to learn the rules before you buy you might have a rude awakening after the fact.

I know I had a rude awakening when I purchased a very small VB contract along time ago thinking I could transfer OKW points over to that contract and still get the 11 month window with the additional points. Little did I know... Oops...

Y-ASK

 

[DBorges]

We call got this and signed it in our closing packages from DVC which mean you agreed.

page 1 section 5



5. You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership Interst is for your personal use as a vacation experinceand not for the purpose of aquiring an incomeor appreciating invesetment. VAcation points have no value other then being a vechilce to use your Ownership Intrest to reserve accommodations.


As owners Yes you signed this at closing and agreed to it.

Like it or not DVC is just enforcing what you agreed too..

 

[crisi]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a DVC owner, but I have rented points for an upcoming trip, not that I believe that causes any bias in my view.

I think rather than asking how strong is the desire for DVC rooms, you need to ask "which rooms"? Even note that your statement says "desired villa". If someone comes to CRO looking for a 2 bedroom villa at BCV during F&W, or a GV just about anywhere, it seems they're likely to get turned away.

On the other hand, when I go to the web site to check availability just for kicks (especially shorter term, e.g. less than 60 days), my hotel of choice is almost always not available, but they suggestively sell a villa at SSR instead. (Honestly, it seems SSR almost always has availability)

Thinking back only a few months, many guests staying at some of the All Stars resorts were being called not long before their trip and offered free upgrades to Studios (or even 1BR in some cases I think) at SSR. To me that suggests plenty of available stock, and fairly low demand overall.

You have to understand that DVC has several very different types of inventory, and what you are seeing through CRO and what is being suggestively sold through CRO - or what people were upgraded to from the All-Stars was not available to members to book.

That isn't to say SSR isn't easier to book that BWV over Food and Wine - its also a MUCH larger resort - but it is a lot more complicated than it seems.

 

[DBorges]

You have to understand that DVC has several very different types of inventory, and what you are seeing through CRO and what is being suggestively sold through CRO - or what people were upgraded to from the All-Stars was not available to members to book.

That isn't to say SSR isn't easier to book that BWV over Food and Wine - its also a MUCH larger resort - but it is a lot more complicated than it seems.

We are comparing apples to oranges BCV_BWV AKV WLV OKV SSR are all diffrent sizes (Phyiscal pant IE building) there for there are less of a number at one and more at others ..
As for the upgrading thing Ibet that was a sales ploy if they did that and got even 4 sales they have a gain in sales that would not have happened under normal situations

 

[CarolMN]

Perhaps some do not understand why cash guests were offered upgrades at SSR for a short period of time.

CRO/WDWTC booked the All Star Resorts to capacity (for s short period of time during the "free dining" offer). More people wanted to stay at the All Stars than there were rooms to accommodate them. Those guests did not want a deluxe resort or could not afford one.

There were lots of rooms available at SSR from the Developer's inventory. (Those rooms represented the portions of the resort that was ready for occupancy, but not yet sold to members. They did not belong to members and were never available to members to book. Remember, SSR is not yet sold out. There is still Developer Inventory there that is given to CRO/WDWTC to produce $$ for the Developer).

Rather than let those rooms go empty and thus get nothing for them, some guests were offered upgrades. The upgrades allowed CRO/WDWTC to book more guests at the All Star Resorts.

Getting a "value" price for the SSR rooms may not be ideal, but something is way better than nothing! IMHO, it was a win for Disney and a win for the guests involved.

Cruise lines do this type of thing all the time - i.e., upgrade guests into unsold cabins in a more expensive category and book more into the less expensive cabins. It's just a way to maximize revenue and it makes many guests happy!

 

[InstImpres]

Cruise lines do this type of thing all the time.

and one of the reasons the cruise lines (and I am sure DVD did it) is to entice people into wanting these accomodations in the future. As many posters have said, it is hard once you go deluxe to go back. It's a great marketing strategy if the space is open anyhow.

 

[Dean]

May I suggest that anyone who beleives this please investigate the timesharing industry as a whole of which DVC is just one, one of the better ones, but still just one. If you (using it as a general term, not you disney54us) don't learn to work the system then you are forever going to be disappointed with the results you get from the system. And of course blaming everyone along the way but yourself (again not you disney54us) and complaining about many who have taken the time to learn and work the system.

Y-ASK

Amen to that. Anyone that calls day by day or right at opening time for MS or uses the wait list or reserves home resort is "working the system".

I hadn't seen the info about websites and don't know how they could use that criteria given the ease of having one but if that's the way it is, I stand accused.

I just dont get it, there are web sites, ebay listings, red flags must be on accounts--start shutting down some of these memberships, dont keep putting on more restrictions in the hopes it will go away

action speaks louder than words, until they start shutting a few of these operations down they will ALL continue

The problem is they can't do so. They have to come up with rules that apply to all. If they single out a person for other than objective reasons they would be in violation of a number of FL and federal laws.

 

[Dean]

Right from the MULTI-SITE PUBLIC OFFERING BOOK

SECTION 12 PAGE 25

12. PERSONAL USE AND ENJOYMENT

The purchase Of an Ownership Intrest should be based upon its value as a vaction experince or for spending Leisure time and, Not considered for the purposes of aquiring an appreciating ivestment or with the expectation the the ownership interest may be rented or resold

Ownership interest are offered for personal use and enjoyment onlyand should not be purchased by any prospective Purchaser for resale or as an investment oppertunity or with any expectaion of achieving rental income,capitol appreciation or any other financial return or valuable benifit including a tax benifit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their ownership interest would have to complete a t a substantial disadvanatge with DVD in the sale or rental of its Owners interest. The many restrictions unpon the use of an ownership interest may adversely affect its marketablity or rentablity.


So in a nut shell we created this problem (we as the membership) and people who are doing the renting for profit not renting the balance of points.

Are the one you should point the fingers at not the everuday member.

The creation of web site to sell rentals for PROFIT not like here on dis (he who will remain un-named) is agaist the whole purpose and the rules that we all have to deal with

This is language required by FL law and the intent behind the requirement was to prevent companies from selling timeshares promising rental profits and appreciation. It was not intended by FL law, nor by strict interpretation of DVC's language, to prevent one from doing exactly that. It's merely a statement of what your up against if you do go that route.

I think that the problem some people have is that there are people out there that are not working within the rules, or complaining that the 'rules' are prohibiting them from doing what they want.

So if DVC were to say "no more renting", would you comply, or continue to rent?

I'm not sure there are people truly outside the rules that I've seen. I can't think of a single example where one can use or rent DVC that is truly outside the rules. But that that includes those on the other side of this wording, IMO. Now if one had an inside accomplice to reserve units before any member had access, that would be different and about the only way I'd see reservations as outside the rules.

To repeat something I've said on other similar threads, I think this is funny. DVC is going to spend time and energy as well as money and it will only affect maybe 6-8 members at most that the lynch mob would target. It will not make any difference for even one who owns 1000 points and rents every one. And it will likely have unintended consequences on the rest more than on those that rent.

 

[drakethib]

Couple of things but by no means am I an expert. JMHO

1. If DVC is really serious about stopping commercial renting why don't they just do a google search or go to ebay and they could probably nail several people pretty quick. I tend to believe if they were that serious about all of this, they would have already done so.

2. I have heard a guide with my on ears tell prospective buyers that they could rent their points if they don't use them. I never believed anyone who had made mention of this until I heard it myself. I ate some crow afterward. (Sorry Dean, you said it, and I didn't believe it)

3. I do not rent my points (well once to my sister in law for $5 per point I think before they purchased DVC) and I really don't see any problem with a family renting their points if they are not going to use them.

With that being said, those people who intentionally book out a prime week (Christmas, etc) for the sole reason of renting them out, may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits. This is screwing out DVC members IMHO, YMMV. Yes I know everyone can call and book at the same time, but I don't think this right.

 

[Y-ASK]

With that being said, those people who intentionally book out a prime week (Christmas, etc) for the sole reason of renting them out, may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.

Woo Hoo!!! Thank God I don't speculative rent. My armpits are still clean and I can sleep easy tonight !!!!

Y-ASK

Joking, just joking. Sometimes you have spell out what the means....

 

[DBorges]

Couple of things but by no means am I an expert. JMHO

1. If DVC is really serious about stopping commercial renting why don't they just do a google search or go to ebay and they could probably nail several people pretty quick. I tend to believe if they were that serious about all of this, they would have already done so.

2. I have heard a guide with my on ears tell prospective buyers that they could rent their points if they don't use them. I never believed anyone who had made mention of this until I heard it myself. I ate some crow afterward. (Sorry Dean, you said it, and I didn't believe it)

3. I do not rent my points (well once to my sister in law for $5 per point I think before they purchased DVC) and I really don't see any problem with a family renting their points if they are not going to use them.

With that being said, those people who intentionally book out a prime week (Christmas, etc) for the sole reason of renting them out, may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits. This is screwing out DVC members IMHO, YMMV. Yes I know everyone can call and book at the same time, but I don't think this right.

SEE there are some of us out there that see the light and know whats up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DBorges]

This is language required by FL law and the intent behind the requirement was to prevent companies from selling timeshares promising rental profits and appreciation. It was not intended by FL law, nor by strict interpretation of DVC's language, to prevent one from doing exactly that. It's merely a statement of what your up against if you do go that route.

I'm not sure there are people truly outside the rules that I've seen. I can't think of a single example where one can use or rent DVC that is truly outside the rules. But that that includes those on the other side of this wording, IMO. Now if one had an inside accomplice to reserve units before any member had access, that would be different and about the only way I'd see reservations as outside the rules.

To repeat something I've said on other similar threads, I think this is funny. DVC is going to spend time and energy as well as money and it will only affect maybe 6-8 members at most that the lynch mob would target. It will not make any difference for even one who owns 1000 points and rents every one. And it will likely have unintended consequences on the rest more than on those that rent.

Re READ page one section 5 for your closing docs that you did sign and agree too .

That is not just fl mombo jumbo

 

[drakethib]

Woo Hoo!!! Thank God I don't speculative rent. My armpits are still clean and I can sleep easy tonight !!!!

Y-ASK

Joking, just joking. Sometimes you have spell out what the means....

Don't you get my Christmas week !

 

[CarolA]

WOW!

Four days old and 17 pages.

(If you whine too much..... I always wonder why??)

 

[Chuck S]

As much as I personally dislike the practice of booking for speculative renting, especially during the priority window, it isn't our interpretation of the POS language that matters. It is Disney's (DVCs) responsibility to interpret and enforce the association rules. In reality, all we, as owners can do is either sit back and watch, or if we feel Disney is either being too strict, or not strict enough, file suit. The odds of either side prevailing in a court battle against Disney are very slim to non-existent, so it is best IMO to simply let them do their job. Disney certainly has the resources to take action and scan the web if they feel there is a need to do so, or if they feel an owner is violating association procedures.

 

[TisBit]

I'm not sure there are people truly outside the rules that I've seen. I can't think of a single example where one can use or rent DVC that is truly outside the rules.

Well, actually, earlier in this thread there was mention of a family that does use their points for truly commercial purposes. According to others, they have made it a business and do it for income only (or very minimally for personal use) so I think that negates the no one does this.

I think that this is very minimal and most renters do not fall into that category, but I think it is out there. I think the speculative bookers also are within the rules, as written now, but it doesn't make it 'right'. Kind of like the family that holds a place in line while someone goes for Fastpasses.....

 

[Dean]

Re READ page one section 5 for your closing docs that you did sign and agree too .

That is not just fl mombo jumbo

I've read it and have a couple of thoughts about it. First, assuming we're talking the same section, it is just a shorthand version of what is being discussed earlier. Second, according to DVC's legal dept, the product understanding checklist is not a binding article, only a representation. My previous interpretation stands.

Well, actually, earlier in this thread there was mention of a family that does use their points for truly commercial purposes. According to others, they have made it a business and do it for income only (or very minimally for personal use) so I think that negates the no one does this.

I think that this is very minimal and most renters do not fall into that category, but I think it is out there. I think the speculative bookers also are within the rules, as written now, but it doesn't make it 'right'. Kind of like the family that holds a place in line while someone goes for Fastpasses.....

That was really my point. They own the points and if they elect to rent them out, so be it. And that's true if they get every single unit for the week I want to go and I'm left out. While I don't have the reference anymore, I have seen information of case law in FL where a condo developer was renting units by the week and instituted a law that owners could only rent for a month or longer. The courts held that the rules had to apply to all evenly regardless of the rules put in place by the developer.

 

[JimMIA]

From the '08-'09 Vacation Planner:

Renting Vacation Points Restriction
Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purpose other than described in the Declaration is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board (of the Condominium Association), in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

Example: A Member who maintains a web site offering rental of points is clearly renting for commercial purposes; a Member who makes 20 reservations per Use Year in the name of other persons is most likely renting for commercial purposes. These members are considered to be "commercially active." A person who makes one or two reservations within a Use Year in the name of other persons most likely is not renting for commercial purpose.​

Here's the info on websites, Dean. The thread has been moving pretty fast today, and I'm sure you just missed it back on page 12.

The statement on websites couldn't be much clearer. The real question with that particular method of renting is what DVC does about it, now that they've articulated the policy.

It's obviously easy to find websites for renting points, but there's a difference between an individual owner who rents a few times a year and just uses a website to make the process more efficient, and a family with tens of thousands of points using them almost exclusively for renting through a website, and a website serving as a broker for individual owners doing occasional rentals. If I wanted to attack real commercial renters, I know which one I'd go after -- but all of those examples clearly meet the criteria cited in that policy.

As far as speculative rentals, I don't think DVC cares about those at all -- except to the degree they generate complaints that DVC has to deal with. People who are really steamed about speculative rentals would do well to bombard DVC with emails complaining about the practice.

 

[Dean]

Here's the info on websites, Dean. The thread has been moving pretty fast today, and I'm sure you just missed it back on page 12.

The statement on websites couldn't be much clearer. The real question with that particular method of renting is what DVC does about it, now that they've articulated the policy.

It's obviously easy to find websites for renting points, but there's a difference between an individual owner who rents a few times a year and just uses a website to make the process more efficient, and a family with tens of thousands of points using them almost exclusively for renting through a website, and a website serving as a broker for individual owners doing occasional rentals. If I wanted to attack real commercial renters, I know which one I'd go after -- but all of those examples clearly meet the criteria cited in that policy.

As far as speculative rentals, I don't think DVC cares about those at all -- except to the degree they generate complaints that DVC has to deal with. People who are really steamed about speculative rentals would do well to bombard DVC with emails complaining about the practice.

I saw it and acknowledged same on page 17 as well as stating that makes me a commercial renter under that definition even though I own mainly to use and rent out roughly about 2 to 3 times a year currently.

Just to add, my participation may be spotty the next couple of weeks. We leave early AM to HI for 2 weeks on II exchanges. I'll be back but as you say, if the thread keeps on this pace I may miss a few things.