DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[walt34]

I agree. Other than the "Trust" title on one document, it seems that all the other documentation that has been mentioned is just boilerplate stuff. Everything other than that is just speculation from bloggers and posters on this forum.

Yes and no. Even if the recently filed documents don't give any specifics on a new model and also seem to allow for everything to stay more or less the same, they do also enable Disney to change some aspects of DVC pretty significantly. At this point, everything seems possible: that these changes have some administrative advantages for DVD, that Disney is preparing for significant changes in future or that they want to keep the door open for those changes at new resorts which might or might not come in the future.

What the discussion in this forum and some articles on the matter do show is that it causes some fear and uncertainty in the community. As this would hardly be a surprise to Disney, one can assume that they have some reason for these changes. Otherwise, why rock the boat?

So, it is more than boilerplate but until they tell us or more evidence is unearthed, the rest is indeed speculation.

 

[Sandisw]

Why? Is there any known documentation that gives any dates for anything? If anything, recent declaration of more RIV units into the current legacy DVC would suggest the opposite.

I agree. Other than the "Trust" title on one document, it seems that all the other documentation that has been mentioned is just boilerplate stuff. Everything other than that is just speculation from bloggers and posters on this forum.

They filed the paperwork specifically for CFW. The inventory will be added to the trust and sold as a trust use plan. The date is December 15th 2023 for its creation.

So, That is not speculation. It is the covenants, declarations and the membership and resort agreements for this project. Yoy can find and read it all. The most important document is 115 pages long and is going to be the basis for the POS for this projects.

So, they are going to be selling interests in the trust in 2024 with CFW.

What is not known is how future resort property will be handled. But, the documents certainly suggest they will be adding more plans in the future.

Where and what is the speculation part but not that they are going forward with a trust. Thst is certain.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

Why? Is there any known documentation that gives any dates for anything? If anything, recent declaration of more RIV units into the current legacy DVC would suggest the opposite.

I don’t think the trust moving forward is speculation anymore. The documents filed Friday Dec 29th (as @kneely58 so kindly informed us and gave us all the document numbers) say that CFW will be sold as trust interest, not deeded (though they leave they leave room for change). @Sandisw explains it better in the previous post.

My comment about the Poly tower being part of the trust is still very much speculation though. I see arguments for both, we’ll just have to wait until the documents are filled in the next few months, otherwise anything about Poly is still speculation.

 

[drusba]

Am in the process of reading the documents and still have much to go through, but I wanted to express my initial reaction on a major issue: what DVD has created violates the requirements of the timeshare statute. Palmetto Trust Co. is designated to be both the association and the trustee to which DVD will transfer timeshare units. The purchasers will then purchase a beneficial interest in the trust and receive a deed which provides that they have a beneficial interest in the trust property, but they will not have a fractional legal ownership interest of a particular unit, like current owners. Palmetto is not independent of DVD as all the named directors and officers of Palmetto are employed by DVD, and the named resort and association manager is DVCM to which Palmetto transfers its association powers.

The documents assert that what the purchasers will get as a result is the needed "timeshare estate," which creates the right to occupy a timeshare unit. As I noted before, the definition of a timeshare estate, Fl Stat §721.05(34),requires the timeshare purchaser to get: (a) a direct fee interest in a timeshare property, (b) a partial ownership interest in a condominium unit; (c) a partial ownership interest in a cooperative unit; or (d) a beneficial interest in a trust that complies with all the requirements set out in Fl Stat §721.08(2)(c)4 (applicable to single site timeshare plans) or §721.53(1)e (applicable to multisite timeshare plans). Both those trust sections expressly require that the corporate trustee be "independent" of both the developer and the resort manager, which Palmetto obviously is not.

Note, you can have a valid timeshare estate in a multisite plan if the units are transferred to the association and interests in them are then sold using one of the methods in the definition of a timeshare estate which does not involve a trust, e.g., via a transfer of a partial legal interest in a condominium unit (such as members have now). And before 2015, one may also have been able to make that association the trustee for a multisite timeshare plan, under which the purchasers get a beneficial interest in the trust, without following the trust requirements in the multisite section of the statute. But that ability was done away with in 2015 when the the definition of timeshare estate was amended to add the requirement that any multisite timeshare plan using the trust method of ownership had to comply with trust rules in in the multisite timeshare section of the statute which, among other things, expressly require the trustee corporation to be independent of the developer and the resort manager. §721.53(1)e.

 

[Tatebeck]

I don't really have any interest in CFW but if they do throw in the remaining rooms at Aulani and VDH and throw some rooms from the Poly tower in there I could be interested. All of my points so far are resale at WDW resorts. I would be interested in going to Aulani, and we have family in L.A. but we wouldn't need to stay a ton there as there are less parks. We just wouldn't go every year so I was hesitant to get a contract there, figuring we could use our points at 7 months at some point. But having 11 month booking priority at Aulani and VDH when needed, getting access to future resorts, and getting direct member benefits could make it worth it for us. Just depends on the terms. If the terms are terrible or if it seems super overpriced we may end up buying a cheap Aulani resale contract, and maybe buying 50 points at VDH and 100ish at Riviera to get our member benefits eventually. Either way this is interesting to watch develop!

 

[Sykes]

Am in the process of reading the documents and still have much to go through, but I wanted to express my initial reaction on a major issue: what DVD has created violates the requirements of the timeshare statute. Palmetto Trust Co. is designated to be both the association and the trustee to which DVD will transfer timeshare units.

The new documents filed today name First American Trust FSB as the Trustee.

 

[Sandisw]

Am in the process of reading the documents and still have much to go through, but I wanted to express my initial reaction on a major issue: what DVD has created violates the requirements of the timeshare statute. Palmetto Trust Co. is designated to be both the association and the trustee to which DVD will transfer timeshare units. The purchasers will then purchase a beneficial interest in the trust and receive a deed which provides that they have a beneficial interest in the trust property, but they will not have a fractional legal ownership interest of a particular unit, like current owners. Palmetto is not independent of DVD as all the named directors and officers of Palmetto are employed by DVD, and the named resort and association manager is DVCM to which Palmetto transfers its association powers.

The documents assert that what the purchasers will get as a result is the needed "timeshare estate," which creates the right to occupy a timeshare unit. As I noted before, the definition of a timeshare estate, Fl Stat §721.05(34),requires the timeshare purchaser to get: (a) a direct fee interest in a timeshare property, (b) a partial ownership interest in a condominium unit; (c) a partial ownership interest in a cooperative unit; or (d) a beneficial interest in a trust that complies with all the requirements set out in Fl Stat §721.08(2)(c)4 (applicable to single site timeshare plans) or §721.53(1)e (applicable to multisite timeshare plans). Both those trust sections expressly require that the corporate trustee be "independent" of both the developer and the resort manager, which Palmetto obviously is not.

Note, you can have a valid timeshare estate in a multisite plan if the units are transferred to the association and interests in them are then sold using one of the methods in the definition of a timeshare estate which does not involve a trust, e.g., via a transfer of a partial legal interest in a condominium unit (such as members have now). And before 2015, one may also have been able to make that association the trustee for a multisite timeshare plan, under which the purchasers get a beneficial interest in the trust, without following the trust requirements in the multisite section of the statute. But that ability was done away with in 2015 when the the definition of timeshare estate was amended to add the requirement that any multisite timeshare plan using the trust method of ownership had to comply with trust rules in in the multisite timeshare section of the statute which, among other things, expressly require the trustee corporation to be independent of the developer and the resort manager. §721.53(1)e.

It does mention that the current board members will be replaced…maybe you can comment on how that is written and if that changes anything?

 

[drusba]

The new documents filed today name First American Trust FSB as the Trustee.

Wow, changes coming quickly (DVD must be reading the disboards posts). So DVD has gone to the same company that is Marriot’s timeshare trustee. Does anyone have the document numbers for the new filings.

 

[Sykes]

Ahhh, I didn't realize that they weren't posted in this thread. They're uploaded here (and the post after it):

https://www.disboards.com/threads/ft-wilderness-cabins-becoming-dvc.3916819/page-70#post-65233462

It's 20240005326, 20240005327, 20240005328, 20240005329 (and 20230743960 may be new too?)

 

[Genie+]

Wow, changes coming quickly (DVD must be reading the disboards posts). So DVD has gone to the same company that is Marriot’s timeshare trustee. Does anyone have the document numbers for the new filings.

I was not expecting that. Wow is right!

That wealth of experience seems very valuable to DVD, and intimidating to me as a DVC member.

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

All those things are yet to be known but in other systems, my understanding is that they give access equally across each week.

Here is a potential way it could work:
Let’s say they have 200k points worth of inventory to start the trust at Poly tower, CFW, AUL, VDH, and RIV…none of these units are ones currently declared for deeded owners use…they remain a separate bucket.

That means there are 1 million points for trust members to book with. Each month, trust members can access about 83k points worth of inventory at all those resorts 11 months out. Once those are used, at whatever resort they choose, no more bookings.

So, Poly tower could book up for trust owners quickly but AUL rooms stay longer.

My guess is that whenever this system gets up in running, it will start with more than 1 million points but you get the idea

At 7 months, those units open to all DVC owners.

Now, who knows how they will actually set it up, but for me, this is how it would work best, at least to start.

But, I know think we have an idea of what the plan is going to be for those 2042 resorts…they will be sold as part of a trust model and not deeded.

So...If entire Poly Tower are Trust points (separate bucket) with NO deeded owner pts....But PVB is same Association as Tower... Then ALL Poly Tower Trust "renters" could book PVB at 11-months but PVB deeded owners will NOT be able to book Tower (Assuming Tower points are sold ONLY as part of new Trust?)???? Or will just have to compete with Trust "renters"?

 

[Sandisw]

So...If entire Poly Tower are Trust points (separate bucket) with NO deeded owner pts....But PVB is same Association as Tower... Then ALL Poly Tower Trust "renters" could book PVB at 11-months but PVB deeded owners will NOT be able to book Tower (Assuming Tower points are sold ONLY as part of new Trust?)???? Or will just have to compete with Trust "renters"?

That part is not clear to me. The POS for PVB says new units can be added to the association under a different vacation plan. The vacation plan is what guides the use, etc.

So, if the units were to be activated into the trust…they’d create a Poly tower resort use plan for it…whether they could then limit all PVB deeded owners from it? I think resale contractpurchases after 2019 would have a very good chance of being restricted if they did it.

For direct PVB points or resale PVB points bought before 2019? Not really sure. What we do know is that being in the trust could potentially give those at other trust property access before the 7 month window, if they set it up that way. But we still don’t know if that is the plan.

 

[J-Dog]

I just got an email from my guide about the Cabins at Fort Wilderness. I found this part interesting:

Membership requires purchasing a deeded ownership interest at The Cabins at Disney’s Fort Wilderness Resort that expires January 31, 2075, which is typically priced at $22,700 to $60,100 (subject to change).

So, maybe I'm just not understanding?

The above post was posted on Page 26 of this thread - assuming that this is a legit email from DVD, and was sent out only about 2 weeks ago, wouldn't that directly contradict your comments here?:

They filed the paperwork specifically for CFW. The inventory will be added to the trust and sold as a trust use plan. The date is December 15th 2023 for its creation.

So, That is not speculation. It is the covenants, declarations and the membership and resort agreements for this project. Yoy can find and read it all. The most important document is 115 pages long and is going to be the basis for the POS for this projects.

So, they are going to be selling interests in the trust in 2024 with CFW.

What is not known is how future resort property will be handled. But, the documents certainly suggest they will be adding more plans in the future.

Where and what is the speculation part but not that they are going forward with a trust. Thst is certain.

The offical documents that they filed say they will only be selling them as part of the trust and that they are part of a The Cabins Resort Use plan.

So, yes, we know for sure those first 30 cabins that have been activated into the trust will only be sold that way.

 

[Sandisw]

So, maybe I'm just not understanding?

The above post was posted on Page 26 of this thread - assuming that this is a legit email from DVD, and was sent out only about 2 weeks ago, wouldn't that directly contradict your comments here?:

Well, that email came out before the filing documents were found and recorded. My guess is that was sent like that because it had not yet been finalized and they didn’t want to tip their hand.

If you read that actual filings that are there, the only thing that is there right now is that they will be selling the cabins under “The Cabins Resort Use Plan” and not as a deeded interest.

I will find and post the clause. Here is where it confirms that they will only vacation plan in effect at this time is the Cabins Resort Use Plan. It will not be selling as deeded ownership interests at this time.

 

[J-Dog]

Well, that email came out before the filing documents were found and recorded. My guess is that was sent like that because it had not yet been finalized and they didn’t want to tip their hand.

If you read that actual filings that are there, the only thing that is there right now is that they will be selling the cabins under “The Cabins Resort Use Plan” and not as a deeded interest.

I will find and post the clause. Here is where it confirms that they will only vacation plan in effect at this time is the Cabins Resort Use Plan. It will not be selling as deeded ownership interests at this time.

View attachment 823296

Okay thanks for the info.

Still, it seems unlike DVD to email something on December 13th, and then contradict that 2 days later. They stopped selling any points they had in VGF many months before VGF2 went on sale. Almost as if they had a plan...

I'm fairly certain that I won't be interested in partaking in the Trust, if they are just cobbling this thing together on the spur of the moment.

 

[Sykes]

If you read that actual filings that are there, the only thing that is there right now is that they will be selling the cabins under “The Cabins Resort Use Plan” and not as a deeded interest.

To be fair, the text in the email is still accurate--it's still a deeded ownership interest, it's just a deeded ownership interest in the trust that owns the resort rather than a deeded ownership interest in the resort itself.

 

[Genie+]

Okay thanks for the info.

Still, it seems unlike DVD to email something on December 13th, and then contradict that 2 days later. They stopped selling any points they had in VGF many months before VGF2 went on sale. Almost as if they had a plan...

I'm fairly certain that I won't be interested in partaking in the Trust, if they are just cobbling this thing together on the spur of the moment.

My guess is the Cabins could be sold both ways, with a choice of deeded or trust. Maybe they released the email regarding deeded CFW right before filing trust documents as to not alienate potential buyers. Without that email, the trust filing would lead to strong rumors of Trust only. I’d have to think DVD knew the email specified deeded, but…

you never know!

Look at the recent dues bill mailed out. Nobody proofread the address. What’s with the parenthesis instead of a space?

 

[drusba]

So, maybe I'm just not understanding?

The above post was posted on Page 26 of this thread - assuming that this is a legit email from DVD, and was sent out only about 2 weeks ago, wouldn't that directly contradict your comments here?:

The trust interests to be sold are beneficial interests in the trust, and the named trustee that will be the legal owner of the applicable cabins put into the Cabin of Fort Wilderness Trust Use Plan will now be First American Trust, not Palmetto. DVD will sell interests in the cabins in that plan to persons who will not get legal title to a portion of a cabin but instead will receive a beneficial interest in the trust. Such trust beneficial interests, though they are not legal direct interests in a portion of a unit at the resort like current members have, can, under the law, be transferred to a purchaser via a deed and recorded with the Orange County Comptroller the same as any other types of deeds.

The CFW Plan is the only one that has been identified, and any cabins put into that plan now will be subject to the terms of that plan, including that the purchasers can reserve the cabins at 11-months out but other resorts only at 7-months out.

However, the documents also declare that DVD in the future can create one or more new trust use plans for properties put into the same trust that currently exists with First American, and those properties can include CFW cabins, units from other DVC Resorts, or even another entire resort. See Bylaws §IX. Purchasers would thus get a beneficial interest in that new trust and thus could legally be treated as beneficial owners of all resorts in the new trust plan, i.e., they will be able to reserve at all the applicable resorts in the new plan at 11-months out. Moreover, the purchase price and points acquired and applicable to reserving units at CFW can differ from the existing CFW plan, and, under the new plans having units from more than one resort, beneficial owners could pay portion of dues applicable to the units in more than one resort. The creation of such a new trust plan would require the CFW declarations to be amended, and DVD has reserved the exclusive right to make such amendment in its discretion.

In other words, the current CFW is step one to later having multiple resorts held by the same trust in which beneficial owners can purchase interests that will allow them to reserve at multiple resorts at 11-months out.

 

[Sandisw]

The trust interests to be sold are beneficial interests in the trust, and the named trustee that will be the legal owner of the applicable cabins put into the Cabin of Fort Wilderness Use Plan will now be First American Trust, not Palmetto. DVD will sell interests in the cabins in that plan to persons who will not get legal title to a portion of a cabin but instead will receive a beneficial interest in the trust. Such trust beneficial interests, though they are not legal direct interests in a portion of a unit at the resort like current members have, can, under the law, be transferred to a purchaser via a deed and recorded with the Orange County Comptroller the same as any other types of deeds.

The CFW Use Plan is the only one that has been identified, and any cabins put into that plan now will be subject to the terms of that plan. including that the purchasers can reserve the cabins at 11-months out but other resorts only at 7-months out.

However, the declarations also declare that DVD in the future can create one or more new trust plans for properties put into the same trust that currently exists with First American, and those properties can include CFW cabins, units from other DVC Resorts, or even an entire resort. See Declarations §IX. Purchasers would thus get a beneficial interest in that new trust and thus could legally be treated as beneficial owners of all resorts in the new trust plan, i.e., they will be able to reserve at all the applicable resorts in the new plan at 11-months out. The creation of such a new trust plan would require the CFW declarations to be amended, and DVD has reserved the exclusive right to make such amendment in its discretion.

In other words, the current CFW is step one to later having multiple resorts held by the same trust in which beneficial owners can purchase interests that will allow them to reserve at multiple resorts at 11-months out.

That is a great find…one more answer as to the potential rules for future properties. Now, let’s see if they decide to do anything unique with the Poly tower units!

 

[Sykes]

I'm still on the "no functional changes, just new ownership structure" train, but a part of me does wonder if this is a way to package up some of the lower-value properties (or properties that have a limited variety of room types) to make them more desirable. Maybe the high-demand resorts (monorail resorts, Epcot resorts, etc.) stay separately deeded ownership (even after 2042 Disney would have no trouble re-selling BWV without additional benefits at almost any price), but CFW, OKW (after 2042, although they have weird issues with the extension there), some future moderate-ish DVC resorts, and anything else that might not be as high demand would get packaged up to offer buyers more choice.