Dopey Training - Long Runs

[accm]

My extended family is planning a trip for MW 2023, and like the completely insane person I am, I’m considering doing the Dopey Challenge (what can I say, I’m highly motivated by shiny things)

For background, I’ve recently realized I actually do enjoy running, although I have a hard time figuring out a training plan. I did the W&D challenge this weekend, and pretty sure I undertrained for it, since I ended up hurting my knee pretty early on the half.

My question is, is it possible to properly train for Dopey without running 20+ miles in one go? I think realistically, the longest run I’d be able to do would be ~2hrs, and even that would be a stretch.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Yes, but also it depends.

I trained for a full with my longest run being 13.1 mi. But I’m a slower runner and that took me almost 3 hours. I’m running goofy next month and my longest run is 12 miles. But my only goal is to finish the races and have fun.

There’s a lot of research around it, and I’m sure Billy will be around to explain it all.

 

[FFigawi]

Paging @DopeyBadger to the white courtesy phone

In short, yes. Many training plans are more about time than distance and max out at around three hours.

 

[accm]

That's good to hear. I'm not a fast runner at all, and my plan would be just to finish all the races and hopefully be able to walk at the end of it.

My follow up question would then be, where do you even find a Dopey training plan? The Jeff Galloway one on the runDisney site goes up to 26 miles.

 

[DopeyBadger]

My question is, is it possible to properly train for Dopey without running 20+ miles in one go? I think realistically, the longest run I’d be able to do would be ~2hrs, and even that would be a stretch.

First, realize that you don't need a Dopey specific training plan. If you choose a good marathon training plan, then you will be properly prepared. The key is choosing a training plan that you feel at the outset you can commit to 100%. If you know you can't do 90 min of running on Wednesdays, don't choose a training plan that has 90 min on Wednesdays. Don't go into the training plan from the outset making major changes. Instead, find a training plan that makes it so it revolves around your life instead of your life revolving around the running.

Second, I'm a big believer in the concept of training by time instead of miles. I've seen the methodology be successful for runners aiming for sub-3, and for runners aiming for sub-7. In fact, when evaluated by time instead of mileage, the plans for a sub-3 and a sub-7 aren't necessarily all that different than each other. Yes, the sub-3 runner may do 19 miles max and the sub-7 runner does 10 miles max, but if we evaluate it by how long you're running for and the effort level you're giving the bodies of these two runners are going to perceive the activity similarly. It's the basis of the theory of training load (duration and effort matter more than mileage because mileage is simply a function of the other two).

Thirdly, typically I place a maximum limit of 150-180 min for the longest run at long run pace (for continuous runners that's about 9% slower than M Tempo and for run/walkers that's 2 minutes slower than M Tempo). If someone wanted to do an even longer run, then the first consideration is to dramatically slow the long run pace. But you're looking for the opposite. You want a maximal long run at 2 hours. So the question back would be, why? What leads you to believe that you can't successfully train beyond 2 hours? Is it a time limit (like I've got so many other life commitments that the most I can commit to on a single weekend day occurring 2-3 times in Nov/Dec is 2 hours)? Or is it from a perspective of, every time I've trained for a race prior, I've had issues going beyond 2 hours? Because if it's the latter, then it may be an issue that your previous training was improper and that's why you couldn't successfully train beyond 2 hours. If the pace was perhaps too quick or the other training in the week was too light, would be the first two things I'd look at in previous training to help solve the potential issue. It's common for most runners, but especially those who which are slower, to think that they have to train fast on their long runs in order to be successful on race day. That's a fallacy. Quite the opposite actually. You have to go pretty slow for the training to be unproductive, but it's really easy to go too fast. For instance, someone who runs a 3hr HM (13:44) or 6:15 M (14:19) should be doing their long runs at 15:36 to 16:19. But I guarantee you most 3 hr HM runners don't go slow enough in training. So they feel as if those long runs are too much for them to handle.

But let's say you're the opposite. That it isn't the physical toll of the long run, but rather the time availability is the main issue when limiting to 2 hours on your max weekend long run. That would be a short long run, but it's not impossible. It'll then come down to a commitment during the rest of the week. I've written hundreds of successful training plans in the past six years. To my recollection, I've written one where someone completed a marathon on a 2 hr long run. I would want to see that runner get in at least six hours of training in the peak week. So if you're doing 2 hrs max on Sunday, then you'd need to get 4 hours of running from the other six days minimally. Something like:

M- OFF
T- 45 min
W- 90 min
R- 45 min
F- OFF
Sa- 90 min
Su- 120 min

Could be successful. That's 6.5 hrs. The key is realizing that different durations will effect the body differently. The golden zone of endurance training is that 60-90 min training run. Lots of benefits, and comparatively minimal recovery. Whereas training runs that take 120-150 min take a significant more time to recover from. So to bolster your overall training, we include multiple bouts of training in that 60-90 min area.

So to answer your other question, where can I find training plans that don't go up to 20 miles in a marathon training plan? If we stop and think for a second we can figure out a solution. Firstly, we discussed if how a training plan is written in terms of duration and effort, then whoever completes the plan should have a similar response. Whether they're a sub-3 or a sub-7. So that means, if we covert any training plan from a mileage based one to what a duration based scheme would look like for a 4:00hr marathon runner (many pre-written plans have 3:30-4:00 hr runners in mind), then we'll have a general idea as to how much duration we should be doing if we're a slower runner. Let's use the Hansons Beginner plan as an example.

These are the training paces for a 4:00hr runner.



Peak week of the Hansons Beginner plan is:

M- 7 miles at EA
T- 1 mile WU + 2 x 3 mile at M Tempo-10 sec w/ 0.25 mile RI + 1 mile CD
W- OFF
R-1 mile WU + 10 mile M Tempo + 1 mile WU
F- 6 miles at EA
Sa- 6 miles at EB
Su- 16 miles at LR

56 miles total

Using the paces above, we convert that to time

M- 77 min at EA
T- 11 min WU + 2 x 27 min at M Tempo-10 sec w/ 3 min RI + 11 min CD
W- OFF
R-11 min WU + 90 min M Tempo + 11 min WU
F- 60 min at EA
Sa- 60 min at EB
Su- 160 min at LR

9.2 hrs total.

So now the Hansons Beginner plan can be useable for anyone from a sub-3 to sub-7 runner if you just go through and convert mileage to time. One common misconception is that Hansons wants you to do 16 mile whether you're a sub-3 or a sub-7 runner. But if you read the book they talk about time limits for certain types of runs. So Hansons might suggest you do 20 miles, if you can do those 20 miles in 175min. Conversely, they Hansons book might recommend capping the LR at 12 miles if you hit their time threshold for that type of run. So even the plans written in the book need to be evaluated in terms of duration based on your paces.

I'd recommend trying to find a training plan that peaks in mileage from 6-9 hrs. Going lower than 6 hrs is iffy (but doable) for a marathon, and many recreational runners don't need to exceed 9 hrs at peak to reach near peak physical capability. Veterans go past 9 hrs, but that's because they're trying to squeeze the lemon. Hansons (Luke Humphrey) and Jack Daniels are two authors that come to mind when looking for training plans that limit the long run. Their books are very useful guides on proper marathon training for all levels.

Alternatively, you work with a coach that can create something more custom to you and your life. I'd venture to guess that if you end up deciding that 2 hours is a hard limit on your maximum training run, you're going to struggle to find pre-written plans even when converting them to time based plans. I know it's possible because I've done it once before, but it wouldn't be easy by any stretch.

Here's some light reading from some of my previous posts that are tangentially related to this conversation.

Eureka! The Quintessential Running Post
Train slow to race fast: Why running more slowly and capping the long run at 2.5 hours may dramatically improve your performance
Why should your average training pace be much much slower than your goal half marathon pace?
Why am I doing this run? The question every runner should be asking themselves.
Glycogen Supercompensation (AKA Carb Loading)
The Long Run Mindset: How to train at 16 miles but run a 26.2 mile race
The Marathon is 99% Aerobic (and 95% for HM and so on): So how to train for it!
Two kinds of impressive: The person who finishes first may not be the most impressive, it could be who finished last.
Advice for Newbies #1
Advice for Newbies #2
Advice for Newbies #3
Advice for Newbies #4
Advice for Newbies #5

 

[jpakstis]

I’ve never run the Dopey challenge but I have run a couple of marathons. With two younger kids and their weekend activities in mind when I ran them, I researched training plans and the concepts behind them. There is a school of thought that all that matter is your base mileage per week. So rather than run 2-3 5 mi and then a 20 miler for your longest long run, you could just re-distribute that 35-40 miles during that week.

However I also think it’s important to have some long runs (15+ miles) just so you “practice” hydration methods. I tend drink a lot of water but find that especially toward the end I need something with electrolytes. It also helps you “practice” with snacks and/or sport nutrition during the run. And finally it makes sure you have tested all your clothes and gear (Body Glide!). Things that may not become evident until you’re 15-18 miles in.

Dopey is a little different and I wonder if a good marathon training program would basically cover the total training since it’s not like you’re running a marathon and then more than a marathon the next day. I had a buddy who ran the Dopey a while ago and his longest long run was 30 miles. I don’t know if you would need to do that especially if you’re an experienced longer distance runner. But someone with Dopey experience might correct me (and they’d be right!).

Good luck!

 

[accm]

Thank you DopeyBadger. I’ll have to take more time to read through everything you’ve linked, and look into those books.

The 2hr limit is due to time constraints. We have two young kids, and it’s hard to leave for really long runs on the weekend.

something else I’ll have to consider is the fact that I live in Northern Ontario, so even being able to run outside will be hard at times. What are your thoughts on treadmill running?

 

[camaker]

Dopey is a little different and I wonder if a good marathon training program would basically cover the total training since it’s not like you’re running a marathon and then more than a marathon the next day. I had a buddy who ran the Dopey a while ago and his longest long run was 30 miles. I don’t know if you would need to do that especially if you’re an experienced longer distance runner. But someone with Dopey experience might correct me (and they’d be right!).

Dopey can definitely be completed using a good marathon training plan that incorporates running on back to back days. I’m getting ready to run my 5th Dopey using the same plan that I use to train for marathons. My maximum long run on the plan is 16 miles and I top out at 44-45 miles per week.

 

[DopeyBadger]

However I also think it’s important to have some long runs (15+ miles) just so you “practice” hydration methods. I tend drink a lot of water but find that especially toward the end I need something with electrolytes. It also helps you “practice” with snacks and/or sport nutrition during the run. And finally it makes sure you have tested all your clothes and gear (Body Glide!). Things that may not become evident until you’re 15-18 miles in.

It's a common critique of the training plans that cap at 150-180 min when that may mean 11-12 miles for someone slower. For some it's the physical (can't know what nutrition needs are for my actual marathon, or how clothes feel) and for others mental ("I have too much anxiety not going close to the distance I'm doing in training."). I've found two potential solutions to the problem.

Option 1 (the more ideal choice) - Devote two training cycles to the marathon (something on the order of 33-34 weeks in total). The first training cycle is marathon training just the same, but at the end instead of running a marathon, you do a 20 mile training run at training paces. You'll get at least one chance to have that learned experience whether the need was physical or mental. Then you take some down time after the first cycle ends, and then you properly ramp up for the actual marathon. Since the 20 mile training run is so far from the actual event, the recovery is absolutely complete by the time the next marathon comes. Additionally, the running of the 20 mile training run does not negatively impact the training for the marathon itself.

Option 2 (less ideal, but doable) - Devote a single training cycle to the marathon of about 18-20 weeks. At about 10-12 weeks to go, you run a "B" race 20 mile training run at training pace. You have a situation where you taper for the 20 miler, unlike you would for your other long runs. You also allow proper recovery post 20 miler in the next few weeks. The 20 miler itself is then still far enough away from the marathon itself that you should be fully recovered. The downside is that having this 20 miler "B" event mid-training will drag down the rest of the training itself. So ultimately, you will be less prepared physically for the actual marathon. But alas, some people need the mental gains or some physical knowledge prior to running the marathon itself.

Dopey is a little different and I wonder if a good marathon training program would basically cover the total training since it’s not like you’re running a marathon and then more than a marathon the next day. I had a buddy who ran the Dopey a while ago and his longest long run was 30 miles. I don’t know if you would need to do that especially if you’re an experienced longer distance runner. But someone with Dopey experience might correct me (and they’d be right!).

I would say far and away your buddy ran an unusual longest training run (30 miles). For 99.99% of runners, they wouldn't need a long run that long to successfully run the Dopey Challenge. Even for a non-experienced long distance runner, I would 100% recommend doing far less than 26 miles as a max training run.

The 2hr limit is due to time constraints. We have two young kids, and it’s hard to leave for really long runs on the weekend.

Totally makes sense. Then you're likely going to have to run 4-5 times per week and look to get in at least six total hours of training in peak week. You'll have to be extra diligent to not miss any runs, because the cumulative effect of the training is more important than any singular long run. And being able to do those 120 min runs would be supported by the other training you do do. But I do know that it is not impossible to complete Dopey off a max long run of 120 min.

something else I’ll have to consider is the fact that I live in Northern Ontario, so even being able to run outside will be hard at times. What are your thoughts on treadmill running?

How Northern are we talking here, more northern than Thunder Bay, maybe Peawanuck? I brought up the temps from Thunder Bay for November and December 2021 when peak Dopey training would occur.





Looks to be about 20-40F on average for the high. So certainly cold, but that's definitely doable for training weather. Some good investments in cold weather gear will make it tolerable. I wore my Columbia Baselayer Heavy pants (link) last night at 20F and my legs were too hot. I wore just a single Columbia Baselayer Midweight Half zip (link) and was reasonably comfortable when I was running. I've run in as low as -35F for something like 10 or so miles (75-85 min). It wasn't pleasant, but it was doable. So some good clothes can help solve running in the cold.

Same goes for snow running. I've done it plenty of times. Only ever fallen once. Don't need any special equipment. Just slow down, keep your feet underneath you, and have some choppier steps. Don't over commit on any one step. When you've got adverse conditions like these, you just run for time (even more so than normal). So 120 min at long run effort might mean instead of 14 min/mile now you're doing an 18 min/mile for the same effort level.

A key for going from northern winter to Dopey is to heat acclimate in the last two weeks of training. This will prep the body for being able to properly run in warm conditions (earlier onset of sweating, greater sweat production, and reduced electrolyte loss in sweat to name a few benefits).

Now with that all of the way, your original question was about the treadmill. My view is:

Outdoor running >> Treadmill > No running

If you have the reasonable option between outdoor running and treadmill, then choose outdoor running. You will be more properly prepared for the race by training outdoors. With that being said, when outdoor running is not a reasonable option, then the choice is treadmill or no running. And the treadmill wins in that battle. So just be honest with yourself. If you truly can't get outside, or you can't get the entire workout in outside, then do it on the treadmill instead. But if you do too many workouts on the treadmill, you'll be less prepared physically for the road marathon race. I'm challenging my memory here, but I believe some of the drawbacks to treadmill running is that there aren't obstacles/changes in foot strike like you have in a road training session. This leads to underdevelopment of supporting muscles. Additionally, the treadmill tends to have more give than a road does. So you're not getting the same bone damage/response feedback like you get from road running. So I believe you're more at risk for post-marathon bone injuries with exclusive treadmill running. But again, treadmill wins over no running if that's the choice.

 

[Naomeri]

I've run in as low as -35F for something like 10 or so miles (75-85 min). It wasn't pleasant, but it was doable.

You’re a madman . Then again, I just signed up for an in-person 5 miler in the middle of January along the Mississippi River in Minneapolis, so the madness might be catching.

 

[shellott-hill]

It is do-able. I trained for the Dopey last year and never had a run longer than 150 minutes (2.5 hours). The key to the training is exactly what Billy is telling you. And doing what the plan tells you.

I am training for the Dopey again this year and will again not exceed 150 minutes on my long run. The key is the stacking of the back to back runs and getting used to running on fatigued legs.

As for the weather...I can relate...Western Canadian here. I have a run today, but will be forced on to the treadmill. I woke up this morning to -32C (-27F). A little too cold for me to go outside. I have a rule that if it is colder than -15C, I move to the treadmill. If it is warmer than that, I am outside (no matter what).

 

[Sleepless Knight]

My question is, is it possible to properly train for Dopey without running 20+ miles in one go? I think realistically, the longest run I’d be able to do would be ~2hrs, and even that would be a stretch.

Yes. My longest training run for any of my previous two marathons and my current in training mode run is 11 miles. I had been hesitant to attempt the marathon because I did not want to devote 5-6 hours every two Saturdays to long training runs. However, in order to do that, I had to accept that I would have to increase my miles the other 4 days that I run during the week. Half marathon training had me very used to 3 mile runs during the week with longer runs of anywhere from 2-3 hours on Saturday. Marathon training with 2-3 hour long runs meant that I would often need to sprinkle in one or two 6 mile runs each weekday in addition to the long run on Saturday. @DopeyBadger really helped me see how this could work, but it was up to me to make the sacrifices necessary to put the work in.

So rather than run 2-3 5 mi and then a 20 miler for your longest long run, you could just re-distribute that 35-40 miles during that week.

Redistributing the miles during the week worked for me. I also think an increase in miles during the week helped me recover faster from the long runs. The key though is consistency. You have to be consistent. Make the sacrifice to get the runs in. While it's possible to absorb missed runs, consistency gives you more wiggle room if and when unexpected surprises come up. Because they will. Consistency will allow you to recover and regain lost fitness much faster when if illness strikes. I got a particularly nasty chest cold less than one week before leaving for the 2019 marathon. I had to skip all my planned runs after that hit. I had not run in almost 10 days when Dopey 2019 began. While I could definitely feel my health improving, I also knew after each shorter distance that I was getting stronger. I credit the consistency leading up to the chest cold for that kind of recovery.

What are your thoughts on treadmill running?

Before the pandemic, I trained almost exclusively on the treadmill. For half marathons and the marathon. I was able to finish both marathons, including 2020 which had record breaking heat for the marathon to the point of runDisney shortening the course. Before the course was cut, I was on pace to crush my first marathon time from the previous year. So it can be done.

The pandemic necessitated running outside in the dark, which I had previously tried to avoid because I just didn't want to risk falling down or tripping over something. Now when I go to run on the treadmill, I find that it feels much longer even if my paces are similar. Treadmill is doable and better than nothing, but now I understand why so many people hate the treadmill and/or do not recommend it.

 

[accm]

Thank you everyone! I have a lot to look into. I might try some winter runs this winter. My issue is not so much the cold, as much as the fact that I run on the road, and with all the snow, the road is narrower and icy/snowy. Also, for whatever reason running in the dark messes with my head (there’s been bear activity around our house, so I’ve convinced myself I’ll get eaten by a bear)

But I also never considered the fact that I could in fact just slow down my pace. Maybe my plan for this winter will be to try to get one outdoor run a week so that next winter Im more used to winter running. I’m also planning on going to Brazil to see family for Christmas/NewYears, so that should help with acclimatizing to the heat.

Finally, I’m obviously not going to start training right now, so what would be the recommendation? I currently work out for at least half an hour most days - mostly strength or cycling. I have a treadmill being delivered in January, so I’ll be adding more running as well. Is there anything specific I should try to focus on? Anything I can do to help prevent knee injury? (I mention the knee injury because I was devastated during the wine and dine half when I felt like I could have run faster, but every time I tried, my knee was in excruciating pain)

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

My extended family is planning a trip for MW 2023, and like the completely insane person I am, I’m considering doing the Dopey Challenge (what can I say, I’m highly motivated by shiny things)

For background, I’ve recently realized I actually do enjoy running, although I have a hard time figuring out a training plan. I did the W&D challenge this weekend, and pretty sure I undertrained for it, since I ended up hurting my knee pretty early on the half.

My question is, is it possible to properly train for Dopey without running 20+ miles in one go? I think realistically, the longest run I’d be able to do would be ~2hrs, and even that would be a stretch.

1. A number of good points already made in the posts above.
2. If you search on my posts, you'll see that I'm a poster child for slacker training. I don't make/take enough time for super long runs. I'm generally doing 3-4 mile runs every other day, and slightly longer runs on the weekend. My longest run so far has been 6 miles (no stopping, no walking) plus a recent 10K.
3. I'm there to have fun and finish, not to set any PRs (elsewhere, but not at Disney). So I'll run the 5k and 10K without pushing it so as to leave "gas in the tank" for the next two races. The half will be mostly running with walk breaks coinciding with the water stop(s). The marathon will wind up being a run of several miles, then alternating walking and running, and with character photo stops functioning as breaks from running in both races.
4. If I pushed my weekend times up to 90 minutes, I'd being doing even better. I acknowledge that.
5. FWIW, in 4.5 months I've gone from 12.5 minute miles to 10-minute miles on my neighborhood course with hills, and down to 9.5 minute miles on the mostly flat greenway.
6. This is the same training I employed for the Goofy about ten years ago when I was in my mid-40s. With a few fairly short stops for photos with characters, I managed the half in (I think 2:40) and the full in less than 6 hours (I've lost my times for those races). For the full, it was a modified Galloway with the walk breaks getting longer as the miles went by, but still with run intervals in mile 26.
7. My lungs don't do well in the cold, so I hit the treadmill only when it is too cold to run outside. For me, outside running is *always* preferable to the treadmill.
8. When possible, I run on the greenway with its boardwalk sections being the most forgiving to joints. When I'm doing my local runs, I try to hit smooth grass next to the sidewalk.

The benefits to how I'm doing it, besides not losing multiple hours on the weekend, is that my recovery time during the week is nil, and the recovery from the weekend run is only a day or two. Plus not much in the way of training injuries. I had several straight days of perfect weather and felt great, so I did 3 straight days of the 3-4 mile runs. By the 4th morning, I was feeling it, but had no issue with the repeated runs.
If you are young and/or thin and want faster times, DopeyBadger has the plan for you. If you are a little less intense or older (like me), you can dial it back accordingly and still have fairly decent times without losing too much of your weekends to training. YMMV (literally)

I hope some of this is helpful. Have fun and good luck.

 

[huskies90]

…find a training plan that makes it so it revolves around your life instead of your life revolving around the running.

Wait. Are you saying my life shouldn’t revolve around running? Yeah. This is where you lost me. lol

 

[azrivest]

As for the weather...I can relate...Western Canadian here. I have a run today, but will be forced on to the treadmill. I woke up this morning to -32C (-27F). A little too cold for me to go outside. I have a rule that if it is colder than -15C, I move to the treadmill. If it is warmer than that, I am outside (no matter what).

If I may add, not only is winter running doable, it can be majorly awesome. Running outside when the air is crisp, with a few inches of new snow on the ground is fantastic.

As DopeyBadger says, key is slowing down, because running on snow can be like running on sand, so it can be easier to hurt oneself.

But just look at that sky tho

 

[accm]

@DopeyBadger Thank you again for all the links. I finally got around to reading all of them. You mentioned you created custom training plans. Is that something you still do?

And is there such a thing as a pre "training plan" training plan? I'm trying to figure out what would be best to be doing between now and when I would start a training plan. What base milage should I be at?

I went for an outside run yesterday for the first time since wine and dine, and less than 10 minutes in my knee started hurting, so I guess first step is calling a doctor to try to figure out what's going on with that. Other than my knee, I was shocked by how pleasant the cold was - granted it was only 30Fish, so not actually cold.

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger Thank you again for all the links. I finally got around to reading all of them. You mentioned you created custom training plans. Is that something you still do?

Yes, I can help you if you'd like.

And is there such a thing as a pre "training plan" training plan? I'm trying to figure out what would be best to be doing between now and when I would start a training plan. What base milage should I be at?

Most training plans last about 16-18 weeks based on the ability of runners to continuously build in training load up until a point of stagnation. Most runners respond better to increasing volume, a small minority respond better to stagnant volume with increased intensity. So when planning multiple training plans over a year's time, it's important to map them out in chunks.

Marathon Weekend 2023 is the week of 1/2/23.
18 weeks prior is 9/5/23. So it's typical to start Dopey training around the beginning of September.

Between 1/3/22 and 9/5/23 there are 35 weeks. I like to see 1-2 weeks off between training plans to allow the training load to drop and recover. This allows you to peak again towards the end of the plan. Those who don't take time off after a recent training plan tend to peak too early for their next race. So that would be an additional two plans based on the 33ish weeks available. What you do with those two plans partially depends on what you have been doing lately, and what you want to attempt to do during the Dopey training, and your goals for Dopey. If you want to be in the best shape of your life going into Dopey, then I'd consider plan #1 to get in a life pattern of making running something you do regularly. I'd then consider a 5k/10k plan over the summer that still uses relatively high mileage (not a beginner's 5k/10k plan) to induce gains in your raw speed and lactate threshold. Then move into Dopey for endurance.

Where you want your mileage to be entering the Dopey training plan is partially dictated by the peak of the Dopey plan. Like mentioned earlier, most runners need to leave room to grow in mileage. Having your mileage at 18 weeks to race day too similar to your mileage at 3 weeks until race day will likely lead to stagnation. I like to follow a pattern of increasing the volume bi-weekly at a rate of 20-40 min per week depending on how aggressive the runner wants to be. So if we count backwards from 3 weeks out, you have (3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17 as your building weeks). That's 8 builders in total. So you want to be at about 160-320 min from peak. So if you say, I want to peak at 6.5 hrs per week, then I'd say we want to be at about 3.5 hrs of running per week entering the plan.

I went for an outside run yesterday for the first time since wine and dine, and less than 10 minutes in my knee started hurting, so I guess first step is calling a doctor to try to figure out what's going on with that. Other than my knee, I was shocked by how pleasant the cold was - granted it was only 30Fish, so not actually cold.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[GreatLakes]

I don't have much to add that wasn't added already but a few additional notes.

• For winter running have you ever tried trails? I love running the trails in the snow and you don't have to worry about traffic. It is also a great aerobic base builder which leads me to...
• I too was always skeptical of marathon plans that didn't include 20 mile runs but over the past 4 years I have been converted. I spent a full year doing slower base miles and while it was painful (in a boring not physical sense) at first it has paid back dividends. You have plenty of time to just build a good aerobic base and then do some marathon specific plans closer to the race.
• For the injury I'd go see a DPT, not your PCP (or the Canadian equivalent). I've seen non-running focused doctors tell people to just stop running or rest but both are often not the right answer. A knee injury might need some rest but just as important is strengthening exercises to stabilize it and prevent future injuries.

 

[HangWithMerida]

@DopeyBadger This was very helpful insight. I find myself in this situation as well. I have a routine in place that gets me through the summer with the fall buildup to a few HMs during the cooler winter months, but have been trying to figure out how to handle the year before a marathon plan. I don't usually do much targeted training in the summer, more like easy runs focusing on maintaining some fitness while surviving the heat. That works when the main training plan is just to HM distance, but I can't do the same thing this summer and then build to a marathon without feeling like I am punishing myself. While I'm not even going to set a time goal for Dopey, I don't want to feel like I am slogging through. I want to have the endurance in place to finish all the races without being in horrible shape at the end and not get injured!
I transitioned to 5 days a week running for this training cycle and will keep that at a minimum. The plan is to use the beginner Hansons marathon plan for Dopey, so will have to transition to 6 days at this point if not before. I was considering a "just cross the finish line" style HM plan as base building prior to that and maybe a 10k plan before that as bridge between race training and longer distances. Most plans are so low mileage at the beginning, that even allowing for some time off and a decrease in intensity/mileage between plans, I have room to shave a couple weeks off the beginning to more accurately reflect where I am starting from fitness-wise and to make the plans fit the weeks available.
The idea was that a 10k plan will have more speed work style runs in a time of year before the temps/humidity become stifling. For the the HM plan, I was looking for one that just focuses on building mileage and not speed work. Once summer kicks in, I just can't push that hard. My T+D even in the early morning is 150-ish in the summer (July-Sept).
Does that seem reasonable? It's not quite what you outlined above but I also am accommodating southern weather challenges and trying to be realistic about what I can physically withstand in mid summer.