Don't like new fastpass plus!

I've got those old Unofficial Guides also and what you fail to mention is the guide makes these recommendations for higher crowd days. Usually when the parks are at an 8-10 crowd level.

No, what you fail to mention when you say that certain rides "never" had waits more than 5 minutes is that that only applied to the least busy times of the year (when many people simply cannot visit) if it was true at all.

The 2003 book I have does not have anything about numerical crowd levels (at least not that I see) but in the section about what time of year to visit, it has some interesting comments, like:

"To present a complete picture, we must warn you that the difference between high and low seasons has blurred considerably in recent years. Even during the off season, crowd size can vary enormously. With Walt Disney World promotional hype in perpetual overdrive, huge crowds can materialize anytime."

and

"in the final analysis, the only thing you can really count on is that, high or low season, Disney will be out beating the bushes to get people through the turnstiles.... Our advice, regardless of time of year, is to arrive at the park early and be prepared for large crowds."

There were also some amusing letters from readers, including this one:

"Five years ago a trip to WDW in October was a pleasure. Now the crowds are getting larger. By midmorning, the lines for Splash Mountain were 50-60 minutes long."

The more things change....

To be more specific, the notion that a ride like POC NEVER had a wait of more than 5-10 minutes except at the most busy times is simply not supported by the evidence. I randomly pulled up the historical crowd calendar on Touring Plans for May, 20, 2013, (before FP+) that they listed as crowd level 5. Their data showed an average wait time for POC that day of 18 minutes, with a peak time of just over 30 minutes in the early afternoon.

I then looked at May 20, 2014, which Touring Plans also listed as a crowd level 5.They listed the average wait time for POC that day as 26 minutes with a peak time of 45 minutes in the early afternoon.

So, yes, the standby wait time was longer than on the corresponding day a year earlier, but it didn't go from a walk on all day to 45 minutes all day. That 8 minute increase in the average time is consistent with Touring Plans' broader study that covered about 3 months between March and June.

The evidence is there to indicate that standby lines have increased at some attractions (and decreased at some) and FP+ is almost certainly a factor in that. But, those changes do not seem to be as dramatic as some people are making them out to be, and we don't know how much, if any, of those increases might be attributable to higher crowds.
 
I apologize in advance for the length of this. I know some people love looking at data, so I'd like to throw this out for comments and interpretation. I'll keep my own thoughts to a minimum.

I went to WDW in March 2012, right after they started enforcing return times for FPs. I kept detailed records of what we rode and when. I also went to WDW in June 2014, shortly after 4th FPs were added. I have compared my numbers, and I think they are kind of interesting. The crowd levels for these trips were almost identical (7s and 8s most days).

Now, my 2012 trip is somewhat of an aberration, as I was 27 weeks pregnant at the time. We simply didn't pull as many FPs as we normally would have, as the only headliner rides I did were KS, TSMM, and Soarin'. DD and DH rode some things without me, but we stuck to more low-key rides. I wish I had data from our trips prior to return time enforcement, but it never occurred to me to keep track.

I am posting this to give a feel for one family's experiences with both systems and to show some actual numbers of return times and what FPs were available when we got to the parks in Legacy vs. what we got as 4th FPs with FP+.

I was looking back at the information, and I was wondering if my recollections were correct, because I've posted that we never found Soarin' FPs to run out before 11:00 or 12:00 with Legacy, and we got to re-ride TSMM from time-to-time. It was nice to pull this up and have confirmation of what I thought had happened to us on our trips. I know others have had different experiences.

So, here is the data:

Friday, March 23, 2012
Magic Kingdom
10:00 am--arrived and pulled Mickey and Princess FPs. Return times were 10:45 and 10:55, respectively
10:55--pulled Space Mtn for 11:55
11:55--got Pooh for 1:30
1:30--got PP for 5:30
3:30--pulled Buzz for 5:15
6 FPs

Saturday, March 24th
Epcot
9:15--arrived and pulled Soarin' for 10:10
10:10--pulled TT for 11:30
11:30--got another batch for Soarin' for 2:30

3 FPs (all 3 Tier 1s; 1 re-ride of Soarin’)

Sunday, March 25th
Animal Kingdom
9:45 am--arrived and pulled KS FPs for 11:30
11:30--grabbed EE for 1:45
2 FPs

Monday, March 26th
Epcot
Did a tour. No FPs
0 FPs

Tuesday, March 27th
Hollywood Studios
8:45 am--arrived and grabbed TSM FPs for 10:10 am
10:30--grabbed second set of TSM FPs. Return time was 6:00.
12:30--got three RNRC FPs with 5:55 returns. Other two members of the group got Star Tours for 1:55.
4 FPs (3 for Tier 1; re-ride of TSMM)

Wednesday, March 28th
Magic Kingdom
10:00 am--arrived and did BBB and CRT for DD's birthday.
1:30--got FPs for Splash for 3:50
1 FP

Thursday, March 29th
Epcot
10:15 am--arrived and got Soarin' FPs for 2:35 pm
1 FP

Friday, March 30th
Magic Kingdom
9:30 am--arrived and grabbed Pooh FPs for 10:35
10:35--got FPs for PP at 1:30
12:35--got Buzz FP's for 2:35
3 FPs

Saturday, May 31, 2014
Arrived at Epcot at 6:30 pm
Prebooked FPs:
Soarin’ from 6:30 to 7:30
Extra FPs: none. We got a later start than planned, so we only had time to do one pre-booked FP, which we rode twice with rider switch.
1 FP

Sunday, June 1st at MK
Prebooked FPs:
Buzz at 9:30 am (everyone)
BTMRR at 10:30 (boys)
Rapunzel & Cinderella at 10:30 (girls)
Space at 11:45 (boys)
A&E at 11:35 (girls)
After lunch at CRT, we started booking our extra FPs

Extra FPs:
LM at 2:20 (booked at 1:38; SB was 25 mins)
Barnstormer at 4:05 (booked at 3:35, SB was 30 mins)
WtP at 4:45 (booked at 4:15, SB was 40 mins)
Mickey at 4:55 (booked at 4:35; SB was 25 mins)
JC at 6:50 (booked at 6:38; SB was 25 mins)
PotC at 7:25(booked at 7:17; SB was 15 mins)
BTMRR at 9:30 (booked at 7:45; SB was 30 mins)
Tinkerbell at 10:30 (booked at 10:26; SB was 10 mins)
13 FPs

Monday, June 2nd at EpcotPrebooked FP:
Soarin from 10:00 to 11:00
I intentionally cancelled my tier 2 FPs prior to arriving at the park to see if I could immediately book another Tier 1 after riding Soarin. I was able to do so.

Extra FPs:
TT at 5:00 pm (booked at 11:45; could have had 1:55, but had 2:00 ADR)
Character Spot at 12:30 (booked at 12:15; used RS for Soarin’ so one of us showed that we hadn’t redeemed a FP; SB was 15 mins)
Maelstrom at 7:25 (booked at 7:15; SB was 20 mins)
4 FPs (3 tier ones)

Tues June 3rd at AKPrebooked FPs
Dinosaur from 9:30 to 10:30
KS from 10:30 to 11:30
EE from 11:30 to 12:30 (EE was down, so we switched to FOTLK)

Extra FPs:
Hopped to Epcot
Maelstrom at 7:35 (booked at 5:15; could have had earlier time but had ADR at 6:00; SB was 20 mins)

4 FPs
Wed June 4th at MKPrebooked FPs
Speedway from 12:00 to 1:00
A&E from 1:35 to 2:35
Mine Train from 2:35 to 3:35

Extra FPs:
PotC at 3:45 (booked at 3:30; SB was 20 mins)

4 FPs

Thurs at June 5th at HSPrebooked
TSMM from 10:30 to 11:30
ST from 11:30 to 12:30
ToT from 12:30 to 1:30

Extra FP
GMR at 2:05 (booked at 1:00; SB 10 mins; half of group)
RNRC at 6:00 (booked at 1:00 pm; SB was 45 mins)
5 FPs (2 Tier 1s; no re-rides)

Friday, June 5th AK in morning (no FPs; MK in afternoon)
Prebooked
? (don’t remember, as this expired before we arrived)
Tinkerbell at 2:25
Mine Train at 3:25

Extra FPs
Buzz at 7:35 (booked at 7:29; SB was 25 mins)
PotC at 8:10 (booked at 7:58; SB was 15 mins)
4 FPs
 
Now, my 2012 trip is somewhat of an aberration, as I was 27 weeks pregnant at the time. We simply didn't pull as many FPs as we normally would have,.

You could have stopped right there, the rest of your comparison was pretty useless because of this.

Though, the bit you noted about the fact that more attractions have FP available ... only makes this worse.

Your data sets are completely incomparable.



Your overall claim, certainly valid and debatable. As a "super user" I was able to "super use" FP+ just as I was able to do so with Legacy FP.

But I go in early May, when crowds are lower, and there is pretty good same day availability. Even under Legacy FP it was pretty common for us to pull and FP, ride SB, and then ride again on the FP we had just pulled, then grab another FP and go ride another close ride SB, come back and ride FP again. Space was great for this, as was BTMRR, and well, a bunch of rides.

There is no clear answer on FP+, its personal preference. Lots of people make ridiculous statements about why this is superior, and lots of people make dumb statements about why this is the end of the world.

There are some things we can say with pretty solid confidence though: FP+ has increased the SB times for many rides.

FP+ requires much more planning than Legacy did. (And those who say "you don't have to plan ... the penalty for not planning has increased considerably)

FP+ adds another level of complication to a system, and system's complications don't grow linearly as you add levels, staggered chronologically, they grow exponentially. We have already seen quite a few cases of Booking a year, 11 months etc out. Then ADRs at 180. Sometimes recalculate a few months out due to discount release. Then Recalculate again at 60 days. TRY to match ADRs and FP+ reservations. Then recalculate again a weekish out when weather forecasts are a getting accurate. Then recalculate each day as you see how people are feeling how the forecast changes etc.

That's a Lot more work than, book at 12 or 11 months, book adrs at 180, then watch the weather and how you feel day to day.

FP+ means many people (quite a few reports here) mean people are "doing less" in the parks. Even though its possible to do as much, given the right conditions, we have had dozens of reports of people doing less. Now, some people have liked this, they have even praised their Trips saying things like 'It was great to slow it down, and have more family and resort time' ... awesome, glad they enjoyed it. But for many people, They would rather to a much less expensive resort (and often better resort) if they want resort and family time.

FP+ and MM+ are advertised to guests as something to "enhance the magic" but to investors, and the business class, they are told the aim of this is to squeeze more money out of guests, and to decrease the costs on Disney. Its crowd management, you get less from Disney, and spend more, all the while having them convince you, you love it. And heck, maybe you actually do.

FP+ HAS ADVANTAGES, shocker, even for people who don't like it. Arrival day is great with FP+. You can (assuming you get them at your 60) book FPs later in the afternoon or evening.

Most of the other "Advantages" are really trade offs depending on style and preferences:

Being able to "sleep in" and still "get FPs" sure, but now the person who used to be able to wake up early and get FPs, and continue to pull FPs, isn't getting them.

"Not having to run" - biggest joke of a comment on this board. You didn't have to run. We certainly never did (not even on presidents weekend), we just pulled FPs as we walked around the park in a logical fashion. Did we ever send someone over to an attraction to pull FPs while other people waited in SB or grabbed a bit to eat ... sure. But people are still doing this, running over to Kiosks, except now they are standing in line when they get there, and trying to sort through and figure out whats available instead of just looking at the attraction they are near and going, ok, I will grab that. On top of that, anyone who has travelled with a larger group, with differences in ride preference and age and height etc ... this has created a whole new type of "runner" The person who creates insane spreadsheets trying to figure out how to split FP+s and where to walk around the park to try and match up with those and then hopes to god they can actually book those at those times at day 60 and then plays magic man when, of course, it doesn't work out that way. (This also ignores the idea that if you like kiosks over FP machines at attractions, they could have just offered Any FP you wanted at any FP distribution center, much like the kiosks they installed, only ... more of them)

Knowing you have 3 great rides .... ok, well, sort of. Except with Tiers, you are often getting 1 great ride, and 2 rides you don't (or didn't, you might now) need FP for. And you might be trading "knowing" you have 3 rides, for actually being able to ride more rides, and going with the flow.

Locking in / Flexibility - This is again a wash for the most part. The idea of the system is to make you lock in. But many people have noted they have found lots of same day flexibility, and that's an "improvement", except, its not. If you have same day availability at any given time with FP+, you could have or would have with legacy FP. The one thing that is true however is that, if you have locked in, and your plans change the night before or the day before, the availability of FPs for the day you want to change is now subject to whatever is left over from 60 days of others preplanning. Whereas under the old system, every day at park open the FP system was reset, and everyone had equal opportunity to get what they wanted, when they wanted. Perhaps the old system was in fact, more flexible.

Bleh, that's just a few thoughts, its late :)
 
You could have stopped right there, the rest of your post was pretty useless because of this.

Though, the bit you noted about the fact that more attractions have FP available ... only makes this worse.

Your data sets are completely incomparable.



Your overall claim, certainly valid and debatable. As a "super user" I was able to "super use" FP+ just as I was able to do so with Legacy FP.

But I go in early May, when crowds are lower, and there is pretty good same day availability. Even under Legacy FP it was pretty common for us to pull and FP, ride SB, and then ride again on the FP we had just pulled, then grab another FP and go ride another close ride SB, come back and ride FP again. Space was great for this, as was BTMRR, and well, a bunch of rides.

There is no clear answer on FP+, its personal preference. Lots of people make ridiculous statements about why this is superior, and lots of people make dumb statements about why this is the end of the world.

There are some things we can say with pretty solid confidence though: FP+ has increased the SB times for many rides.

FP+ requires much more planning than Legacy did. (And those who say "you don't have to plan ... the penalty for not planning has increased considerably)

FP+ adds another level of complication to a system, and system's complications don't grow linearly as you add levels, staggered chronologically, they grow exponentially. We have already seen quite a few cases of Booking a year, 11 months etc out. Then ADRs at 180. Sometimes recalculate a few months out due to discount release. Then Recalculate again at 60 days. TRY to match ADRs and FP+ reservations. Then recalculate again a weekish out when weather forecasts are a getting accurate. Then recalculate each day as you see how people are feeling how the forecast changes etc.

That's a Lot more work than, book at 12 or 11 months, book adrs at 180, then watch the weather and how you feel day to day.

FP+ means many people (quite a few reports here) mean people are "doing less" in the parks. Even though its possible to do as much, given the right conditions, we have had dozens of reports of people doing less. Now, some people have liked this, they have even praised their Trips saying things like 'It was great to slow it down, and have more family and resort time' ... awesome, glad they enjoyed it. But for many people, They would rather to a much less expensive resort (and often better resort) if they want resort and family time.

FP+ and MM+ are advertised to guests as something to "enhance the magic" but to investors, and the business class, they are told the aim of this is to squeeze more money out of guests, and to decrease the costs on Disney. Its crowd management, you get less from Disney, and spend more, all the while having them convince you, you love it. And heck, maybe you actually do.

FP+ HAS ADVANTAGES, shocker, even for people who don't like it. Arrival day is great with FP+. You can (assuming you get them at your 60) book FPs later in the afternoon or evening.

Most of the other "Advantages" are really trade offs depending on style and preferences:

Being able to "sleep in" and still "get FPs" sure, but now the person who used to be able to wake up early and get FPs, and continue to pull FPs, isn't getting them.

"Not having to run" - biggest joke of a comment on this board. You didn't have to run. We certainly never did (not even on presidents weekend), we just pulled FPs as we walked around the park in a logical fashion. Did we ever send someone over to an attraction to pull FPs while other people waited in SB or grabbed a bit to eat ... sure. But people are still doing this, running over to Kiosks, except now they are standing in line when they get there, and trying to sort through and figure out whats available instead of just looking at the attraction they are near and going, ok, I will grab that. On top of that, anyone who has travelled with a larger group, with differences in ride preference and age and height etc ... this has created a whole new type of "runner" The person who creates insane spreadsheets trying to figure out how to split FP+s and where to walk around the park to try and match up with those and then hopes to god they can actually book those at those times at day 60 and then plays magic man when, of course, it doesn't work out that way. (This also ignores the idea that if you like kiosks over FP machines at attractions, they could have just offered Any FP you wanted at any FP distribution center, much like the kiosks they installed, only ... more of them)

Knowing you have 3 great rides .... ok, well, sort of. Except with Tiers, you are often getting 1 great ride, and 2 rides you don't (or didn't, you might now) need FP for. And you might be trading "knowing" you have 3 rides, for actually being able to ride more rides, and going with the flow.

Locking in / Flexibility - This is again a wash for the most part. The idea of the system is to make you lock in. But many people have noted they have found lots of same day flexibility, and that's an "improvement", except, its not. If you have same day availability at any given time with FP+, you could have or would have with legacy FP. The one thing that is true however is that, if you have locked in, and your plans change the night before or the day before, the availability of FPs for the day you want to change is now subject to whatever is left over from 60 days of others preplanning. Whereas under the old system, every day at park open the FP system was reset, and everyone had equal opportunity to get what they wanted, when they wanted. Perhaps the old system was in fact, more flexible.

Bleh, that's just a few thoughts, its late :)

I suppose I should go back and edit my post. I see many assertions on the board that you could never get Soarin' after 10:00 in Legacy, or that you had to be at HS right at RD to get TSMM. That people using legacy got 28 FPs per day and FP+ means everyone gets three, so it's more "fair."

I just thought it was interesting to look back and see that our group really did ride Soarin', TT, and Soarin' on the same day, without getting there at RD. We were there before noon most days, but we aren't super-early risers, and I don't love RD.

I just meant comparable in that I wasn't trying to use a mid-September experience to show how FP availability would be at Christmas. Even if we went on the exact same date a year later, our data wouldn't be comparable, unless we had the desire to ride the exact same rides in the exact same order, which would be unlikely. So, you're correct that the data isn't comparable. The crowd levels were similar. I should have left it at that. I've heard many claims about what was and wasn't available at various times in the parks under both systems, so this was my attempt to show our real-world experience with both systems. I agree that it's late, so I am probably not making much sense.
 

I suppose I should go back and edit my post. I see many assertions on the board that you could never get Soarin' after 10:00 in Legacy, or that you had to be at HS right at RD to get TSMM. That people using legacy got 28 FPs per day and FP+ means everyone gets three, so it's more "fair."

I just thought it was interesting to look back and see that our group really did ride Soarin', TT, and Soarin' on the same day, without getting there at RD. We were there before noon most days, but we aren't super-early risers, and I don't love RD.

Fair points, I merely wanted to point out that your comparison between the two trips wasn't really very useful, due to external conditions.

There were observations that were useful, and didn't mean to discount those, though, perhaps I did. I am sorry for doing so. - edited to note I meant the comparison, not what could be drawn from the data sets on their own.
 
After your 3 fast passes have been used can you select another one from your MDE ap or do I have to see a CM?

You need to go to a FP+ kiosk inside the park for which you want the next FP+.
 
/
The bottom line is for those people who like to plan, fp+ works for them and for those who like to just wing it, it doesn't work. I have fast passes and ADRs and just about every hard ticket you can have for my upcoming trip because there are things I want my family to be able to do that I don't feel we'll be able to without long waits and hassles if we don't go this route. Not to mention some things we just plain wouldn't be able to do at all without ADRs, etc. It doesn't mean I'm happy about it or I don't resent the fact that I have to know which park I'm going to be at on which day, and what time I will see this attraction and oh gee, I hope the fp line isn't over 30 minutes because I'll be late for my ADR. Or, I hope the wait time for my ADR isn't too long because I'll miss my fp time and that would be a disaster because I don't want to wait 90 minutes to ride 7DMT.
My family has already yelled at me for planning our every inhale and exhale for a week. I even backed off and have some parks only needing 4 hours to do what we want and the rest of the day is gloriously free.
It's just not our style. I'm going to keep a positive attitude about it, and hope I like it enough to want to come back. I do have a nearby timeshare and I'm thinking of coming next year and not planning anything at all and see how it goes. No planned parks, no ADRs, no fps. I'll probably get surprised by early closing days but that's how I'm happiest.
 
Disney wants everyone to come back.

Isnt what you're saying a contradiction to what the other fp supporters have been saying. I thought they didn't care if many of the loyal fans didn't come back again because there would be new ones to take their place. Seems to me that what you're now saying is that they value the first timer more than the loyal visitors which quite frankly doesn't seem logical at all.
 
I once got a haircut by a woman who charged an outrageous amount of money and when I commented on it she said, "I only need to get someone in my chair 1 time and I've made my money". She really didn't care if you came back or not. Disney is no different.
 
Obviously the point I am making has been misinterpreted...I'm guessing because emotion is taking the place of logic. Bottom Line: WDW is in business to make money...ensuring the greatest number of guests have a "good" time means more repeat business...that means more money in the coffers. WDW surely doesn't want to offend any guests, but from a business standpoint adding more returning "first timers" is much better than losing a few old timers (not that I see real WDW fans not showing up because their touring style may have to change). WDW makes changes to meet their corporate goals, not to please every possible customer (because that's impossible no matter what they do). Obviously their research has shown FP+ will be an advantage to WDW...just like FP- was when first introduced. They have just tweaked the system...and I'm sure it will happen again in the future.


Then you haven't been reading these boards, other boards ,facebook, or listening to people in the parks. Our normal visit is going from a 5-7 day pass down to a 1 day one for this coming May. The only reason we're even doing 1 day is because we have friends who are first timers going down the same time so...
The change for us is 90% based on fp+, with the other 10% being we really liked Universal so they'll get our $ for awhile is we're in the theme park mode.
 
I've got those old Unofficial Guides also and what you fail to mention is the guide makes these recommendations for higher crowd days. Usually when the parks are at an 8-10 crowd level.

No kidding....we were at D late Sept. I've already mentioned in other threads how ridiculous the standby lines were. We always went slow season(crowd days from 2-5) and we never never never never had SB like this before. This isn't rose coloured glasses , this was a fact.
 
No, what you fail to mention when you say that certain rides "never" had waits more than 5 minutes is that that only applied to the least busy times of the year (when many people simply cannot visit) if it was true at all.

The 2003 book I have does not have anything about numerical crowd levels (at least not that I see) but in the section about what time of year to visit, it has some interesting comments, like:

"To present a complete picture, we must warn you that the difference between high and low seasons has blurred considerably in recent years. Even during the off season, crowd size can vary enormously. With Walt Disney World promotional hype in perpetual overdrive, huge crowds can materialize anytime."

and

"in the final analysis, the only thing you can really count on is that, high or low season, Disney will be out beating the bushes to get people through the turnstiles.... Our advice, regardless of time of year, is to arrive at the park early and be prepared for large crowds."

There were also some amusing letters from readers, including this one:

"Five years ago a trip to WDW in October was a pleasure. Now the crowds are getting larger. By midmorning, the lines for Splash Mountain were 50-60 minutes long."

The more things change....

To be more specific, the notion that a ride like POC NEVER had a wait of more than 5-10 minutes except at the most busy times is simply not supported by the evidence. I randomly pulled up the historical crowd calendar on Touring Plans for May, 20, 2013, (before FP+) that they listed as crowd level 5. Their data showed an average wait time for POC that day of 18 minutes, with a peak time of just over 30 minutes in the early afternoon.

I then looked at May 20, 2014, which Touring Plans also listed as a crowd level 5.They listed the average wait time for POC that day as 26 minutes with a peak time of 45 minutes in the early afternoon.

So, yes, the standby wait time was longer than on the corresponding day a year earlier, but it didn't go from a walk on all day to 45 minutes all day. That 8 minute increase in the average time is consistent with Touring Plans' broader study that covered about 3 months between March and June.

The evidence is there to indicate that standby lines have increased at some attractions (and decreased at some) and FP+ is almost certainly a factor in that. But, those changes do not seem to be as dramatic as some people are making them out to be, and we don't know how much, if any, of those increases might be attributable to higher crowds.
So, I was right in my previous post, when I said the unofficial guide was talking about high crowd level times.
 
So, I was right in my previous post, when I said the unofficial guide was talking about high crowd level times.

Of course, lines are longer when crowd levels are higher. And, as the guide says, even 10 years ago, you can run into larger crowds any time because Disney is doing its best to draw people during what might otherwise be slower seasons.

But, you are wrong when you say that certain rides NEVER had standby lines before and that FP+ is the only reason they have lines now. The suggestion that rides like POC now routinely have standby lines 30-45 minutes longer than they were just before FP+ is simply not supported by the facts.

The complaints that lines are longer than they were in the good old days a few years ago are not new.
 
Of course, lines are longer when crowd levels are higher. And, as the guide says, even 10 years ago, you can run into larger crowds any time because Disney is doing its best to draw people during what might otherwise be slower seasons.

But, you are wrong when you say that certain rides NEVER had standby lines before and that FP+ is the only reason they have lines now. The suggestion that rides like POC now routinely have standby lines 30-45 minutes longer than they were just before FP+ is simply not supported by the facts.

The complaints that lines are longer than they were in the good old days a few years ago are not new.
I may be wrong, but I don't believe I've ever said that there were no SB lines. But when I was there before FP+, the following rides were walk-ons: Small World, Haunted Mansion, and Figment. When I was back post FP+ , all of these rides had waits. Again, I can only speak for myself.
But getting back to my original point, I was right about the unofficial guide providing theme park strategies for higher crowd levels, when having a good touring plan is really beneficial.
 
Luckybee...that's an absolutely false assumption. I have been reading the boards and paying attention to what others have been saying. Of course, I also know that historically those that bark the loudest and most often don't necessarily represent the majority. If you are satisfied with your experience you don't go tooting your horn about how great it was nearly as often as the person that is upset does massive amounts of complaining. Nothing you posted addressed what I said...you just gave your personal reaction to FP+ and your dislike of the system. If Disney's numbers drop, you may be proven in the majority. My hunch is that their research has told them that more people will be positively effected and return business will grow. A poster yesterday showed numbers of guests that visit WDW in an average year. It was somewhere around 16.5 million. I'd say the number of people complaining about the FP+ system destroying the magic is a very small percentage of 1% of that number. I can't speak for anyone else and don't try to...but I can tell you my personal take is that FP+ has allowed us to have a more relaxed plan and still do what we want to do. No more having to be up at zero dark 30 to ensure we get to ride the rides and see the shows that we want. I can play golf in the morning and still know I have FP+ for three things I really want to do in the evening. Does that work for everyone else? Of course not. But my guess is it works for more people than not and WDW will do just fine with the small number of people that stop showing up because they can't maintain their previous commando touring style.
 
I may be wrong, but I don't believe I've ever said that there were no SB lines. But when I was there before FP+, the following rides were walk-ons: Small World, Haunted Mansion, and Figment. When I was back post FP+ , all of these rides had waits. Again, I can only speak for myself.
But getting back to my original point, I was right about the unofficial guide providing theme park strategies for higher crowd levels, when having a good touring plan is really beneficial.

Haunted Mansion was not always a walk on. It still is if you get there in the off times. I've walked onto it a few times since FP+
 
Luckybee...that's an absolutely false assumption. I have been reading the boards and paying attention to what others have been saying. Of course, I also know that historically those that bark the loudest and most often don't necessarily represent the majority. If you are satisfied with your experience you don't go tooting your horn about how great it was nearly as often as the person that is upset does massive amounts of complaining. Nothing you posted addressed what I said...you just gave your personal reaction to FP+ and your dislike of the system. If Disney's numbers drop, you may be proven in the majority. My hunch is that their research has told them that more people will be positively effected and return business will grow. A poster yesterday showed numbers of guests that visit WDW in an average year. It was somewhere around 16.5 million. I'd say the number of people complaining about the FP+ system destroying the magic is a very small percentage of 1% of that number. I can't speak for anyone else and don't try to...but I can tell you my personal take is that FP+ has allowed us to have a more relaxed plan and still do what we want to do. No more having to be up at zero dark 30 to ensure we get to ride the rides and see the shows that we want. I can play golf in the morning and still know I have FP+ for three things I really want to do in the evening. Does that work for everyone else? Of course not. But my guess is it works for more people than not and WDW will do just fine with the small number of people that stop showing up because they can't maintain their previous commando touring style.

My goodness Luckybee, you've destroyed the magic! How dare you! I guess people who dislike FP+ have no right posting on a thread entitled, " Don't like new Fast pass plus" because we " destroy the magic" :rotfl2:
 
I may be wrong, but I don't believe I've ever said that there were no SB lines. But when I was there before FP+, the following rides were walk-ons: Small World, Haunted Mansion, and Figment. When I was back post FP+ , all of these rides had waits. Again, I can only speak for myself.
But getting back to my original point, I was right about the unofficial guide providing theme park strategies for higher crowd levels, when having a good touring plan is really beneficial.

Maybe I am misinterpreting your statement that "It (FP+) has created longer SB lines where none existed before: HM, POC, Spaceship Earth."

This sounds to me like you are saying that those rides did not have standby waits before. Otherwise, I don't know what the word "none" is supposed to mean.

If you are saying that you have had previous visits in which certain rides were walk-ons but that those same rides had waits on your most recent visit, I can't question that. But, you don't know how much those longer lines may have been a result of larger crowds, and not just FP+.

Sure, touring plans are more necessary when crowds are larger. And, if Disney is successful in bringing more people into the parks at times that used to be less crowded, good touring strategies are going to be needed more often than they used to be.
 
[QUOTE=wisblue;52659265]Maybe I am misinterpreting your statement that "It (FP+) has created longer SB lines where none existed before: HM, POC, Spaceship Earth."

This sounds to me like you are saying that those rides did not have standby waits before. Otherwise, I don't know what the word "none" is supposed to mean.


If you are saying that you have had previous visits in which certain rides were walk-ons but that those same rides had waits on your most recent visit, I can't question that. But, you don't know how much those longer lines may have been a result of larger crowds, and not just FP+.

Sure, touring plans are more necessary when crowds are larger. And, if Disney is successful in bringing more people into the parks at times that used to be less crowded, good touring strategies are going to be needed more often than they used to be.[/QUOTE]
No, you are right I did say this. From now on I will preface my statements with IME so that it is known that I'm not speaking for everyone, nor am I speaking for every time of year. I tried this in my last post, but I was still reminded that HM had a SB line.
 













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